Cessnas with 40 dgree Flaps

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
It seems every 40 degree flap Cessna I've ever flown has a distinctive thud at some point during the final travel.

Was this a feature? A common ailment? Or a design flaw?
 
My 182 has 38 degree flaps don't make a thud. I guess two more degrees would make a difference.
 
No idea what you're talking about - I learned on a 40-flap 172, and have over 400 hours in a 40-flap 182. I don't ever recall hearing a "distinctive thud" when extending flaps. :dunno:
 
No idea what you're talking about - I learned on a 40-flap 172, and have over 400 hours in a 40-flap 182. I don't ever recall hearing a "distinctive thud" when extending flaps. :dunno:

I have about 350 in various older Cessnas -- the 210/205 sometimes will, but the 172, 150 seem to be fairly consistent. If you apply full flaps (none to all) there is a thud.

Flap travel during preflight seems normal.

:dunno:
 
If something "thuds" it might be the flap rollers striking the end of the track slot, meaning that they need rerigging, or the flap motor continues to push a little too long after they get to full flap, causing the sheet metal of the right wing to oilcan, meaning that the stop switch on the actuator needs adjusting, or there might be divots worn into the track at the full-flap position that the rollers clunk into when they get there. The mechanic can have a couple of helpers hold up a bit on the trailing edges of the flaps to simulate air loads, and listen for the noise while they come down.

Dan
 
If something "thuds" it might be the flap rollers striking the end of the track slot, meaning that they need rerigging, or the flap motor continues to push a little too long after they get to full flap, causing the sheet metal of the right wing to oilcan, meaning that the stop switch on the actuator needs adjusting, or there might be divots worn into the track at the full-flap position that the rollers clunk into when they get there. The mechanic can have a couple of helpers hold up a bit on the trailing edges of the flaps to simulate air loads, and listen for the noise while they come down.

Dan


Thanks -- that sounds very plausible. I've experienced this in several Cessnas, so I wonder if this was a design flaw?
 
My 1960 175 has manual 40deg flaps and the only thing I hear is a click when the last notch of flaps locks in.....I'm guessing you're talking about the electric ones???? No thuds in the manual flaps that I've ever heard. I like em a lot better than the electrics too....

Frank
 
My 1960 175 has manual 40deg flaps and the only thing I hear is a click when the last notch of flaps locks in.....I'm guessing you're talking about the electric ones???? No thuds in the manual flaps that I've ever heard. I like em a lot better than the electrics too....

Frank


You're right -- electric only.

I also prefer the manual flaps.
 
That thud is your passenger's forehead hitting the panel... :D Those ain't "flaps" -- those are "barn doors"!
 
That thud is your passenger's forehead hitting the panel... :D Those ain't "flaps" -- those are "barn doors"!


Yes,
I got a comment similar to that last evening. I put all 40 deg in to show a friend how steep the plane will come down. He asked if we were supposed to be pointed at the ground like that.....I mentioned that the airspeed hadn't changed despite the steep attitude but I don't think that meant much to him....love those barn doors.

Frank
(sorry I'm not helping with the original question>)
 
Owned a 172 with 40* flaps for almost 5 years and never heard any thuds with deploying them. Electric flaps. Not manual.
 
No thud here either. Cessna flap tracks are known for wearing out and the rear flap track attach points aren't even part of Cessna's "kit" to fix 'em. Call up McFarlane and do it right if you're replacing them... or so I hear...
 
No thud from my 79 172N...but the flap travel has been limited to 30* except when I bang parts of my head on them when I'm not looking out walking under the wings....
 
Never had a thud in any of the 9 Flaps 40 Cessna's I've worked on/flown.

All the same A&P?
 
My 1960 175 has manual 40deg flaps and the only thing I hear is a click when the last notch of flaps locks in.....I'm guessing you're talking about the electric ones???? No thuds in the manual flaps that I've ever heard. I like em a lot better than the electrics too....

Frank

I prefer manual flaps by far and have always wondered why Cessna went to electric flaps on the 172 and 150. The same goes for the manual gear on the Mooney.
 
Yes. I have heard the thud (although I'd describe it more as a faint "bumph" sound) in almost every 172 I've flown with 40 degree flaps, and also only when going from none to full. I always just assumed it was the relative wind hitting the flaps.
 
I fly a 40 degree 150 and never experienced a thump of anysort. But I do love the 40 degree flap for short field!
 
Another possible source of the thud has occurred to me: We have occasionally found cracked or broken flap cove skin braces. These are little Z-shaped bits of aluminum that attach the curved wing skin (immediately above the flap) to the flap track. With flaps down there's a lot of airflow through the slot, and some turbulence that shakes that skin and flexes those little brackets, eventually breaking some of them. There might be some noise coming from them as the airflow increases and pulls the skin.

Dan
 
Thanks -- that sounds very plausible. I've experienced this in several Cessnas, so I wonder if this was a design flaw?

The 40* flap Cessnas are 40+ years old now.
There's a big difference between "flaw" and "wear". There's a big difference between "maintenance item" and "defect".
 
The 40* flap Cessnas are 40+ years old now.
There's a big difference between "flaw" and "wear". There's a big difference between "maintenance item" and "defect".


None I've flown haven't had MAJOR work done -- (even the CAP bird :wink2: ), with multiple replacement of multiple parts.

In fact IIRC the CAP 172 had the entire flap assembly (motor, rollers, arms, etc) repaired not long before I started flying it.

My Chief is 71 years old but there's not much that hasn't been fixed, replaced, or checked since manufacture.
 
Flaps are greatly overrated.

Some are. I've seen flaps that didn't do much at all except provide the pilot another lever to play with.

BUT:

The Cessna 150's flaps, nearly as large as a 172's, make a huge difference in approach over an obstacle and landing distances. Too bad the engine isn't powerful enough to pull it out of the little strips it could get into.

The Junkers-style flaps on my Auster also made a very large difference in takeoff, climb, approach and landing. I wouldn't have wanted to be without them.

Airliners would be lost without flaps. Flaps increase the speed range considerably, especially the more complex double- and triple-slotted varieties.

Dan
 
Folks are dancing around a concept that should be reiterated...

You must maintain and inspect more "stuff" on a 30+ year old airplane. Metal wears out eventually, screws come loose, brackets crack.

Stuff like flap track wear just wasn't even in Cessna's plan when they built 'em originally. They figured these birds would be out to pasture by now, back when Sky King was on TV.

(It was cool to see Songbird III at Oshkosh this year.)

Noises coming from things that shouldn't make noises are clues that "stuff" needs to be looked at more closely. It's cheaper to fix it now, than later when more "stuff" breaks.
 
I've flown a lot of Cessnas with 40 degrees and I've never heard a thud. Sounds like something that needs a fixing.
 
Another possibility, but more often seen on the 182: The rivets that hold the bottom of the flap track to the lower aft spar flange and bottom skin can work loose. As the flaps come down they'll pull back on that bracketry and could make the rivets slip in their elongated holes, making a thunk. With flaps up the pressure atop the flap is actually slightly positive in cruise and would press the flap track forward again.

Look for broken paint around those rivets or black smears coming from them. Signs of looseness.

They shouldn't make noises like that.

Dan
 
You know, now that I think about it I've had two of my planes Tunk with flap deployment (actually the same plane twice) First time was after an overspeed deployment that pulled one of the mounts off the rear spar. Second was when a cable snapped under the indicator cable attachment. (this despite having the AD to prevent it done)

Both were MAJOR failures that had nothing to do with poor engineering. Infact the flap system on these suckers is really a very good one, little more complicated than others but VERY effective.
 
You know, now that I think about it I've had two of my planes Tunk with flap deployment (actually the same plane twice) First time was after an overspeed deployment that pulled one of the mounts off the rear spar. Second was when a cable snapped under the indicator cable attachment. (this despite having the AD to prevent it done)

Both were MAJOR failures that had nothing to do with poor engineering. Infact the flap system on these suckers is really a very good one, little more complicated than others but VERY effective.

None of the thuds I experienced were damage.

These haven't been BIG thunks -- just enough to notice.

May just be air getting up inside the slot giving the flap a final push against the stops?
 
None of the thuds I experienced were damage.

These haven't been BIG thunks -- just enough to notice.

May just be air getting up inside the slot giving the flap a final push against the stops?
Not saying that those were your issues but they are the only thuds I've come across.

I will say that far to few mechanics check flap track wear.
 
Pre-flight, post-flight, discussions with A&P/IA during annual as I assisted....

It has to seem at least a little bit odd to you that you seem to be the only one hearing the thud?

We owned a 1965 172 for quite some time, man she was fun 180hp with CS prop, and I don't recall ever hearing a thud.
 
Talking with a CFI about a 40deg 182 and he says that 40deg position is employed on short final or short field. Is the elevator still effective or will you stall it? I haven't flown it yet.
 
Ours doesn't do that, '76 172m
 
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Talking with a CFI about a 40deg 182 and he says that 40deg position is employed on short final or short field. Is the elevator still effective or will you stall it? I haven't flown it yet.

There's a lot of OWT out there about "blanking out" the Cessna tail in the older Cessnas with 40 degrees of flap, and probably a few circumstances where you could actually do it. Since it would create a nose-DOWN pitching moment if the elevator stalled, it'd get your attention right away.

From my experience, I've never seen that. The elevator itself loses a lot of effectiveness at the speeds you can land (slow) at with the 40 flap aircraft, and I think that's the "blanking" folks think they're seeing when they talk about it.

It just takes more movement of the elevator at low speeds, just like it takes more movement of the ailerons and the rudder too. On my 182, the elevator is well-known for feeling "heavy" at all speeds, and especially so at slow speeds. You work it with trim, and often... all of the up-trim you have is rolled in and you still need to give a good tug to flare... but that's only if you're SLOW and on-speed. If you come in 5-10 knots fast, the elevator is plenty effective and you'll porpoise and/or flare and hold off... and off... and off... with a big float.

The real-world difference between Flaps 30 and Flaps 40 is just that the aircraft will bleed off speed faster than Flaps 30 when the power's off. Thus, approach angle to get a stabilized speed on final is higher. The sight picture will look "funny" coming down faster to someone used to flying something without the giant boards out there slowing you down. It'll also take a handful of power if you're coming up short. You'll push some in, and grab a quick glance at the airspeed as you shove forward on the now-more-responsive elevator and see you're still slowing, then shove some more power in, and now you're pushing pretty hard forward with the yoke.

These are all completely normal and easy to talk about as aerodynamics exercises in text, but the easiest way to "see" it, is to go do some power-off descents with full-flaps in the practice area, trim for approach speed, and then attempt to level off at an altitude... you'll see how much power it needs to stay at that airspeed, and you'll get to see how the additional airflow over the elevator with the application of power will try to pitch the nose up drastically and you'll be pushing.

And remember, no one will MAKE you use Flaps 40 to land... you can always select 30, or 20... or 10... or none. :)
 
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