Cessna - Piper Mid-air Near Buffalo, 3 Killed

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FlyingElvii

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"Two small aircraft collided sometime before 9:45 a.m. over North Collins, leaving a debris field over a section of School Street between Larkin and Jennings roads, Scott Zylka, a spokesman for the Erie County Sheriff's Office, confirmed to The News.

The two aircraft were in a group of six that took off together this morning from Hamburg Airport, said Larry Walsh, the airport's vice president, to The News. The aircraft were flying together to get breakfast, in St. Mary's, Pa., and planned to return later in the day."

http://live.buffalonews.com/2016/09/25/person-reportedly-killed-mid-air-collision-north-collins/

Cessna vs. Piper Cherokee

Not much more than that, right now
 
So sad may they rest in peace.
 
Sad, the second mid-air in just a few short weeks. :(
 
total speculation but, people remember, formation flying is serious business DO NOT do it without proper training!

bob
 
Way too close to home. I fly the Cherokee out of Indiana PA to St. Marys for breakfast about once per month. Many of us often take 4-6 plane trips to breakfast at various places in PA on Saturday mornings - but we do NOT fly in any type of formation. Basically, we depart individually, create separation between the planes, and meet at the destination. RIP to all involved.
 
unsafervguy said:
total speculation but, people remember, formation flying is serious business DO NOT do it without proper training!

bob
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YES. YES. It's not a game. As a tower controller I have seen some close ones. How "in formation" these guys were, or how loose they were just playing "flight" I don't know. What we do know is it deteriorated into a midair.
 
I've never flown in a formation with anyone and never really had a need to do so. Just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone give me an idea of what makes it more dangerous than it appears. I gather there are a lot of "it depends" but in general what scenario makes the deal turn dangerous? I suppose if I were flying on a trip with another plane with comparable performance I would want to stay close enough to see them well but far enough that there was no way we would interfere with each other. I doubt the distance I'm thinking would even be considered formation flying.
 
arkvet said:
I've never flown in a formation with anyone and never really had a need to do so. Just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone give me an idea of what makes it more dangerous than it appears. I gather there are a lot of "it depends" but in general what scenario makes the deal turn dangerous? I suppose if I were flying on a trip with another plane with comparable performance I would want to stay close enough to see them well but far enough that there was no way we would interfere with each other. I doubt the distance I'm thinking would even be considered formation flying.
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it's similar to what happens with wake turbulence but different, also if you get really close the negative pressures can pull the planes together.
 
Oh my. It can be dangerous up there boys. Be safe. RIP :(
 
Pretty good interview with the NTSB guy. Not far from me although I don't know the pilots. :(

Summary: Three debris sites. The tail of the 120 and 4' of the wing of the Cherokee were found in one field and the planes were each found in another.

http://www.wgrz.com/news/local/ntsb-gives-update-on-investigation/326215619

I flew with a friend yesterday less than 50 miles from there later in the afternoon. There was some valley fog early in the morning then clear blue skies all afternoon. There were a lot of planes about with the nice weather. I had my eyes peeled.
 
midcap said:
it's similar to what happens with wake turbulence but different, also if you get really close the negative pressures can pull the planes together.
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Solid explanation from a student pilot with zero formation flying experience... Formation flying takes a lot more concentration than cruising along solo maintaining + or - 100 ft and 10 knots. In a tight formation you will have to maintain maybe + or - 5 feet and will be contantly controlling speed. You have a reference point that you are focusing on nearly the entire flight to keep in position off of lead. A small lapse in focus or a distraction can cause you to touch.

I would guess this isn't the type of formation they were flying. They were probably 1/4 mile or more apart, trail lost sight of lead, didnt have a breakup plan, didn't announce it, and drifted in to lead who was slightly below and probably right off the nose. Again, this is just one way it could have happened, but infinitely more probably than the planes being "pulled together by negative pressure."

To answer your question arkvet, flying formation, either tight or loose, takes a bit more concentration and discipline. It can safely be done, but a little training is advised.
 
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arkvet said:
I've never flown in a formation with anyone and never really had a need to do so. Just to satisfy my curiosity, can someone give me an idea of what makes it more dangerous than it appears.
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Lots of things need to be considered, but from watching people new to form flying the biggest shortcoming most pilots make is simply not paying attention to the lead. When flying wing in parade formation, you never, ever, ever take your eyes off lead. If you're in route, then you can snatch a glance down and a glance around - and that is all - before returning your focus to lead.

Like many things, there is more to it than meets the eye.
 
Direct C51 said:
Solid explanation from a student pilot with zero formation flying experience... Formation flying takes a lot more concentration than cruising along solo maintaining + or - 100 ft and 10 knots. In a tight formation you will have to maintain maybe + or - 5 feet and will be contantly controlling speed. You have a reference point that you are focusing on nearly the entire flight to keep in position off of lead. A small lapse in focus or a distraction can cause you to touch.

I would guess this isn't the type of formation they were flying. They were probably 1/4 mile or more apart, trail lost sight of lead, didnt have a breakup plan, didn't announce it, and drifted in to lead who was slightly below and probably right off the nose. Again, this is just one way it could have happened, but infinitely more probably than the planes being "pulled together by negative pressure."

To answer your question arkvet, flying formation, either tight or loose, takes a bit more concentration and discipline. It can safely be done, but a little training is advised.
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I tried....:D
 
If you can't put your airplane within 100' of where you want it to be with zero margin for error, you shouldn't be attempting loose formations without training and a training plan to get that good.

If you can't put it within 50' of where you want it to be... same.

If you can't put it within 10' of where you want it to be... same.

If you can't put it and keep it within 5' of where you want it to be... same.

In other words... the skill set requirements climb nearly exponentially as you get closer to other aircraft. You learn further away with a pre-communicated plan and emergency options already pre-planned and everyone knows where everyone else is going if the SHTF.

Having done some formal "loose formation" training at about the 50' level, it's a workout. You'll use more control inputs than you ever thought necessary at first until you get a feel for exactly how much of each input is needed and how much throttle jockeying it'll take to move in and then hold it. And you'll still be impressed with how much you have to move the controls and throttle even after you settle in. You're busy. It's not something to do for relaxation, especially at first.

Then the instructors say, "Okay now follow lead through your first turn. You'll be on the outside so you're going to get sucked if you don't add some power. Next one will be with you on the inside, and you'll need to reduce power. And don't forget any power change will require a pitch change. Don't look at the airspeed indicator, just look at Lead for now. That's his job not yours. That's why he's the chosen lead today... he knows not only what he needs to fly but what you need him to do in order to hang here on his wing... you just concentrate on keeping that exact sight picture of him that you have out the window right now, that's plenty to keep you busy..."

After a while you'll get to where you're constantly making small corrections or big ones (if it's bumpy out or there's large convective currents in the atmosphere today) without thinking about it too much. Then the instructor says, "Doing pretty good here. Ready to move in closer?"

And the learning curve goes up steeply again.

Doing it without training from someone who can see when you're setting yourself up for kinetic trouble without thinking about it hard at all, is just begging for a midair.

And like a lot of things, some people pick it up quicker and more naturally than others but it still needs to be taught in stages where a mistake by someone new at it, isn't an instant disaster.

Sometimes the real surprise is that while it looks smooth from a spectator's point of view, it may be anything but smooth control inputs on a bumpy day, inside each cockpit. It often takes a lot of effort to make it look that effortless from a distance.
 
ChiefPilot said:
Lots of things need to be considered, but from watching people new to form flying the biggest shortcoming most pilots make is simply not paying attention to the lead. When flying wing in parade formation, you never, ever, ever take your eyes off lead.
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I recently posted some air-to-air photos of my friend in his Christen Eagle. I got a text soon after I posted it from a fellow air-to-air photographer asking "what was he flying off of"? Most people liked the photo, he noticed the Eagle pilot wasn't looking at me! There was a good explanation of course, he was in a 3-ship formation and he was looking at the lead pilot, who was looking at me. I just zoomed in on the individual planes occasionally.
 
Hobobiker said:
Way too close to home. I fly the Cherokee out of Indiana PA to St. Marys for breakfast about once per month. Many of us often take 4-6 plane trips to breakfast at various places in PA on Saturday mornings - but we do NOT fly in any type of formation. Basically, we depart individually, create separation between the planes, and meet at the destination. RIP to all involved.
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Denny Caruso used to be based there maybe still is. Fantastic mechanic , stearman restorer, well known with stearman people. Also does the engine. Repairs helicopters also. Wonder if he's still there. I was in his shop about 10 years ago. Beautiful work. (St Mary's , pa. )
 
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