Cessna 210 Crash - Payson, AZ - 4 Dead

James331 said:
Also making a sudden turn right as you enter IMC as a VFR pilot has its own risks, often slowing down mentally is the best thing to do

*snip*

Mindlessly starting a 180 the second you get into it, great way to pull a Kennedy.
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Maybe, but what is the statistic on how long, on average, a VFR pilot keeps it level before the wheels come off? And, it looks like the 210 guy may have lost control and broke up in flight.

Yes, if it's a narrow canyon, a turn might be bad, but if you've already put yourself in THAT position......
 
Bill Jennings said:
Maybe, but what is the statistic on how long, on average, a VFR pilot keeps it level before the wheels come off? And, it looks like the 210 guy may have lost control and broke up in flight.

Yes, if it's a narrow canyon, a turn might be bad, but if you've already put yourself in THAT position......
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First off why or how and whatever on how how you ended up IMC, doesn't matter, you're IMC now.

The plane and pilot will last a lot longer if the pilot does less to the aircraft, trimmed out the plane wants to fly straight, start yanking 180 degree turns, not so much, I'd also wager the more turns you do the lower the chances for survival.

Keep everything nice and slow, small movements, hold the yoke like a pencil, not one of those shake weights, start a nice easy enroute climb to a safe altitude and fly the AI, engage the AP if you have one, talk to ATC.
 
I still wonder about icing in this situation. I am a new instrument rated pilot and so am looking for safe IMC to practice in. That very morning I had considered a flight north from Phoenix but was worried the freezing levels were too low for my Cardinal.

In this crash the pilot descended and accelerated, going straight, prior to impact. And it appears the plane broke up in flight from the photos.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I still wonder about icing in this situation. I am a new instrument rated pilot and so am looking for safe IMC to practice in. That very morning I had considered a flight north from Phoenix but was worried the freezing levels were too low for my Cardinal.

In this crash the pilot descended and accelerated, going straight, prior to impact. And it appears the plane broke up in flight from the photos.
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I think some kind of ice is a distinct possibility. I suspect pitot ice, but not positive about what kind of system he had (vacuum or electrical). If he was skirting through clouds in between layers, his pitot could easily have iced up if he didn't have pitot heat on. That will kill many instrument pilots quickly let alone a non-IR pilot without partial panel training.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I still wonder about icing in this situation. I am a new instrument rated pilot and so am looking for safe IMC to practice in. That very morning I had considered a flight north from Phoenix but was worried the freezing levels were too low for my Cardinal.

In this crash the pilot descended and accelerated, going straight, prior to impact. And it appears the plane broke up in flight from the photos.
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Yeah the freezing levels with this storm have been crazy low. I recently picked up ice on the leading edge in full IMC, even with the FIKI on. Found VFR conditions, told ATC I wanted a diversion and lower, and got out of there. Not something I want to mess with.
 
Sad. So just went direct and got in IMC if I'm reading correctly? Not a VFR altitude either. Hmm... something is just not coming together for me.
 
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"..... the airplane maintained a 300 foot per minute descent rate with some intermittent climbs. The final two radar targets showed the airplane ascend about 425 feet in 12 seconds."

Hard to tell if he was descending to stay under the cloud base and then the 12 second climb was when they realized there was raising terrain

Very sad.
 
MetalCloud said:
Sad. So just went direct and got in IMC if I'm reading correctly? Not a VFR altitude either. Hmm... something is just not coming together for me.
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He wasn't above 3,000 AGL so the altitude he was at doesn't really matter, it's all see and avoid. MEA's for that area are 10,000 (V95) and 14,000 (V567), so no conflict with potential IFR traffic at the altitude he stopped at.

Wonder if he had any type of iPad app running that would have shown his position on a sectional so he had a least a basic knowledge of his route and location relative to the terrain? Picking an altitude that was only going to clear the ridge by 500 feet probably wasn't the smartest thing to do with ceilings in the area showing only 300 AGL...sounds like scud running that went terribly wrong.

Very sad for the kids who had their whole life in front of them... :(

Brian
 
flight2000 said:
He wasn't above 3,000 AGL so the altitude he was at doesn't really matter, it's all see and avoid. MEA's for that area are 10,000 (V95) and 14,000 (V567), so no conflict with potential IFR traffic at the altitude he stopped at.

Wonder if he had any type of iPad app running that would have shown his position on a sectional so he had a least a basic knowledge of his route and location relative to the terrain? Picking an altitude that was only going to clear the ridge by 500 feet probably wasn't the smartest thing to do with ceilings in the area showing only 300 AGL...sounds like scud running that went terribly wrong.

Very sad for the kids who had their whole life in front of them... :(

Brian
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Yeah good point on the altitude and the scud running gone bad. So sad.
 
Good point on the iPad, I believe there are some folks have moved beyond following the magenta line and are transfixed watching their iPad SV screens, particularly in low viability conditions.
 
James331 said:
When there are things you might hit.

The cloud isn't going to hurt you, it's the stuff on the ground which can mess your day up.

Many times climbing to a safe altitude based in your charts before executing the turn is the way to go.

Also making a sudden turn right as you enter IMC as a VFR pilot has its own risks, often slowing down mentally is the best thing to do, get the plane flying level, climb to a safe altitude, fess up and declare, get let them know what you need, be it a turn or vectors to VMC, etc.

Mindlessly starting a 180 the second you get into it, great way to pull a Kennedy.
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James331 said:
First off why or how and whatever on how how you ended up IMC, doesn't matter, you're IMC now.

The plane and pilot will last a lot longer if the pilot does less to the aircraft, trimmed out the plane wants to fly straight, start yanking 180 degree turns, not so much, I'd also wager the more turns you do the lower the chances for survival.

Keep everything nice and slow, small movements, hold the yoke like a pencil, not one of those shake weights, start a nice easy enroute climb to a safe altitude and fly the AI, engage the AP if you have one, talk to ATC.
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Fundamentally disagree. We all do standard rate turns in flight training. If you can't do one immediately after hitting IMC there's something wrong. How are you going to follow vectors from ATC if you can't do a simple 180 at standard rate? And why would you need vectors to VMC if you just came from it and know exactly where it is when ATC probably doesn't have as clear a picture?

Also, a 30* turn for 60s is hardly "yanking a 180". If you could see beforehand, getting back to where blue is up and green is down outside the window is the best possible option for a VFR only pilot, especially considering you just came from that direction and didn't hit anything. Then again, the only winning move is not to play - get your IFR ticket or avoid IMC before you get into that position in the first place.
 
IIMC happens, thsts the reason there is so much training for it, yeah the 180 works often, but not always, hence the reason IIMC procedures exist, read the links
 
I've always included the 180 in training Student Pilots. I had a lady who went off on a cross country and flew into the clouds. She did what she was taught, executed a 180, and returned back to home airport. Talked with her and she wasn't rattled about it at all. She knew what to do and performed well. One of my better students BTW, very sharp. In my opinion the Private should have more instrument training.
 
mscard88 said:
I've always included the 180 in training Student Pilots. I had a lady who went off on a cross country and flew into the clouds. She did what she was taught, executed a 180, and returned back to home airport. Talked with her and she wasn't rattled about it at all. She knew what to do and performed well. One of my better students BTW, very sharp. In my opinion the Private should have more instrument training.
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Exactly. The key is building enough confidence that they can keep cool and make a gradual turn back to exit.

The steep turn/yank it around is for turning back BEFORE you get into IMC
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I still wonder about icing in this situation.
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I was driving to Telluride and went through several intense snow storms across NM and the four corners area that day. When I'm not actively driving, I usually horse around with Foreflight comparing actual weather with what was forecast the night before. Bases were low all across north west NM and SW Colorado while driving with ground temps below 32*. Weather remained that way in SW Colorado over the next 5 days during our skiing, with 2 days of high winds and about 15 feet visibility trying to ski at the top near Iron bowl.
 
danhagan said:
I was driving to Telluride and went through several intense snow storms across NM and the four corners area that day. When I'm not actively driving, I usually horse around with Foreflight comparing actual weather with what was forecast the night before. Bases were low all across north west NM and SW Colorado while driving with ground temps below 32*. Weather remained that way in SW Colorado over the next 5 days during our skiing, with 2 days of high winds and about 15 feet visibility trying to ski at the top near Iron bowl.
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Not exactly ideal conditions to take a 210 into.

A lot of corporate jet operators won't even go into TEX if it isn't VFR.
 
flight2000 said:
Very sad for the kids who had their whole life in front of them... :(
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Sad deal for the mother left behind. Turns out I went to school with her. I have to wonder if part of her reluctance to let the dad fly the kids was related to the Austin Hatch story. He attended our little school, too. Seems extremely likely given the size of our school and the tight alumni community that she would have heard about that when it happened.
 
James331 said:
First off why or how and whatever on how how you ended up IMC, doesn't matter, you're IMC now.

The plane and pilot will last a lot longer if the pilot does less to the aircraft, trimmed out the plane wants to fly straight, start yanking 180 degree turns, not so much, I'd also wager the more turns you do the lower the chances for survival.

Keep everything nice and slow, small movements, hold the yoke like a pencil, not one of those shake weights, start a nice easy enroute climb to a safe altitude and fly the AI, engage the AP if you have one, talk to ATC.
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Also, you know what the terrain looks like before entering IMC. After, not so much. So unless you're flying into a canyon, it seems a standard-rate 180 would be the thing to do.

But maybe if you're rattled by finding yourself in the soup, a straight-ahead climb might be a good course of action, so you can regain composure and get additional terrain clearance before making the turn.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly ideal conditions to take a 210 into.

A lot of corporate jet operators won't even go into TEX if it isn't VFR.
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Hard to believe, but I heard at least 5-10 "attempts" at the instrument approach by piston AC while skiing. Never saw them, just heard them very close by due to low ceilings.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not exactly ideal conditions to take a 210 into.

A lot of corporate jet operators won't even go into TEX if it isn't VFR.
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Amen. Any serious 91 operator (particularly Stage III IS-BAO) with a published SMS treats Ski Country weather with a great deal of respect. I wouldn't take anything smaller than a mid-size jet into or out of TEX or ASE if the airport is approaching "minimums" (which happens to actually be VFR for ASE -- 2100 ft. / 3SM vis!) and even then it would be by the numbers, properly loaded airplane with APG Runway Analysis in hand and a secondary flight plan briefed and loaded in the box, terrain display up, etc.

Anything piston would be VFR only... make that good VFR only.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Also, you know what the terrain looks like before entering IMC. After, not so much. So unless you're flying into a canyon, it seems a standard-rate 180 would be the thing to do.

But maybe if you're rattled by finding yourself in the soup, a straight-ahead climb might be a good course of action, so you can regain composure and get additional terrain clearance before making the turn.
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Ok.

I'll be sure to pass that along to all the career pilots who do IIMC training, all the high angle SAR guys, LE guys, fire and EMS pilots, all of which I guess are very easily "rattled".
 
James331 said:
Ok.

I'll be sure to pass that along to all the career pilots who do IIMC training, all the high angle SAR guys, LE guys, fire and EMS pilots, all of which I guess are very easily "rattled".
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Why do you jump to that conclusion? I didn't single any of those types out, nor did I say "very easily."

Think of low-time instrument pilots, or VFR pilots, who unexpectedly find themselves in the slop. Under the worst conditions, even a very experienced pilot can get rattled. The NTSB reports are full of accidents with very high-time pilots.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Also, you know what the terrain looks like before entering IMC. After, not so much. So unless you're flying into a canyon, it seems a standard-rate 180 would be the thing to do.

But maybe if you're rattled by finding yourself in the soup, a straight-ahead climb might be a good course of action, so you can regain composure and get additional terrain clearance before making the turn.
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Actually, this is exactly what our GOM says. In IIMC Climb straight ahead above highest known obstacle with no turns unless there is a known obstacle ahead.

The problem is our entire society, including aviation, is dumbed down for the lowest denominator. Even though our company hires only instrument rated pilots and the vast majority of our indoc, initial flight and recurrent flight training is all Instrument flight and approaches, we still have policies written for the worst of the worst.

It's gotten to the point that it's ridiculous, but this is the type of thing that happens when rated pilots continue to fly perfectly good aircraft into the ground.

PJ
 
SToL said:
The problem is our entire society, including aviation, is dumbed down for the lowest denominator.
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Right. Which means pilots who are capable are often taught poor methodology out of the box when they learn to fly. I tend to teach on a sliding scale -- and I make it known; "I'm going to teach you this, but don't be surprised if a year from now we're flying together and I tell you to do it a different way." That's the best way I know how to handle the "LCD" problem. Sometimes the better way to do things for a guy or gal who's really up to speed is a really bad option for someone who isn't there yet -- or may never be.
 
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