Cessna 185 instruction or tailwheel endorsement

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Mark Deckwitz

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 26, 2013
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MarkD
Hi: am interested in getting some C-185 instruction, or experience, and a tailwheel endorsement if possible. I have 17,000 hrs in 747, Learjet, DHC-8, and now Global Express XRS(no TW experience !). My wife works for UAL, so I can fly anywhere But only on select weekends to wherever would be most convenient, hopefully East of the Mississippi. Based and live in and around Dulles, VA.
 
If you buy one I'll fly it home with you and check you out.

Retired Corporate, bought my first 185, brand new in 1969. Flying one is an art form.
 
kgruber said:
If you buy one I'll fly it home with you and check you out.

Retired Corporate, bought my first 185, brand new in 1969. Flying one is an art form.
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Your the man,,,, he needs to get checked out with.
 
Sounds like a perfect solution! Ohh, and a perfect Aircraft! Jealously has set in, I wish I had a 185, I could use the extra two seats over our two seater bush plane....
 
Google AG-Flight

You want to learn tailwheel, learn it from AG pilots who make their living in taildraggers, not a corp or airline guy who plays in a Pitts or whatever on the weekends. Just my opinion YMMV
 
ChitDisturber said:
Google AG-Flight

You want to learn tailwheel, learn it from AG pilots who make their living in taildraggers, not a corp or airline guy who plays in a Pitts or whatever on the weekends. Just my opinion YMMV
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Strange concept. Corporate and airline pilots can't fly.
 
kgruber said:
Strange concept. Corporate and airline pilots can't fly.
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You see many tailwheel airliners now days?

You want to learn to fly a multi trike, go find you a airliner guy

You want to learn taildraggers find you a AG pilot
 
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About 1/3 of the Cessna 180/185 club members are airline pilots. I'd rather learn from a well rounded pilot who flies to different high altitude mountain canyon strips, and then IFR all over the planet.

Ag pilots are great and I've known a few. Most can barely speak in grunts. And sure, they can land their duster/sprayer on the same flat farm strip over and over. But I'd rather learn from someone well rounded, and able to fly in a variety of conditions.

Ag pilots are not the holy grail of instructors.
 
kgruber said:
About 1/3 of the Cessna 180/185 club members are airline pilots. I'd rather learn from a well rounded pilot who flies to different high altitude mountain canyon strips, and then IFR all over the planet.

Ag pilots are great and I've known a few. Most can barely speak in grunts. And sure, they can land their duster/sprayer on the same flat farm strip over and over. But I'd rather learn from someone well rounded, and able to fly in a variety of conditions.

Ag pilots are not the holy grail of instructors.
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I see your point.

However between a AG guy and a 121 guy, I'd vote AG for tailwheel instruction every time.


Also AG guys do not land on the same strip, when you need to fill your hopper you land anywhere that that loader can get near the fields you're workin, add to that not many AG guys have IFR tickets, let alone CFIs
 
ChitDisturber said:
I see your point.

However between a AG guy and a 121 guy, I'd vote AG for tailwheel instruction every time.


Also AG guys do not land on the same strip, when you need to fill your hopper you land anywhere that that loader can get near the fields you're workin, add to that not many AG guys have IFR tickets, let alone CFIs
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I'm not an AG pilot, but I have years of experience crop dusting. Does that count?

This is ridiculous. You don't need thousands of hours flying an air tractor to teach someone to fly a tail wheel Cessna. 10 hours or so to get them safe and doing wheelies and 3 pointers, and let them have at it.


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ChitDisturber said:
You want to learn tailwheel, learn it from AG pilots who make their living in taildraggers, not a corp or airline guy who plays in a Pitts or whatever on the weekends. Just my opinion YMMV
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What a crock of ****. Funny, I think tailwheel instruction experience given, and general teaching skill is the most important thing in a tailwheel instructor. I've known very few AG pilot CFIs who actually teach. I wonder how we ever ended up with this fleet of pilots running around in tailwheel airplanes without AG pilots around to teach them. ;) Not sure what you think is so special about AG pilots when it comes to teaching tailwheel.
 
Can't speak for Ag pilots, as I never lived far out enough in the boonies to log social time with them. However, being on the main banner airport for South Florida I can speak about banner towers. First, the way they fly is low, slow, and on the verge of a stall. Sure if I wanted slow flight instruction, and learn specific skills on diving towards the earth and immediately pull nearly straight up hoping I caught the line, then the banner guys I'll seek.

But as a full time Flight Instructor, A&P student, and overall airport bum...I can at least qualify that most banner pilots are NOT well rounded pilots do-all pilots (Read: dont need to be). The skills they do keep proficient are dramatically different than what most GA pilots need to be proficient in. Additionally, most stay out instructing because they wanted to do something other than teach to their build flight hours. And they also know full well that they are paid less than CFI's (in this market - by almost $15/hr less).

I would definately not say that a run of the mill 121 type pilot would be qualified to teach me about a C185...but then again an Banner Tower would definitely NOT be any more qualified than an experienced and capable 121 type pilot with C185 experience.
 
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Airline pilot, left seat , at my airport does things with his 180 decathlon that are very impressive.( not ex military)another, an ex Military pilot owns 450 Stearman and is very good. Mostly flew c5's in airforce. Airline pilots , many , if ex military are well acquainted with taildraggers. Cessna 185 buyer should grab that fellow and go for it. Nice airplane and fun to fly. Wish it were mine!
 
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dell30rb said:
I'm not an AG pilot, but I have years of experience crop dusting. Does that count?

This is ridiculous. You don't need thousands of hours flying an air tractor to teach someone to fly a tail wheel Cessna. 10 hours or so to get them safe and doing wheelies and 3 pointers, and let them have at it.


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I've taught quite a few people how to fly tailwheel and you need EXPERIENCE to be a good teacher. The more operational t/w time you have and the more current you are in t/w aircraft the better a instructor you're going to be.

You wouldn't want a guy who rarely flues a twin to get you your multi

You wouldnt want a guy that hasn't seen IMC in years to help you with your instrument ticket



Are we really going to play the "I'm not a aerial applicator, I'm a duster" game.
 
A suggestion......you might call Duane wallis at harford county airport in maryland (Google harford air) he instructs a lot in a Citabria 150 hp and is a retired school principal. A 185 would be right up his alley. Very good pilot and excellent instructor. Hope this helps! It's an easy drive up there for you if it works out.
 
ChitDisturber said:
I've taught quite a few people how to fly tailwheel and you need EXPERIENCE to be a good teacher. The more operational t/w time you have and the more current you are in t/w aircraft the better a instructor you're going to be.

You wouldn't want a guy who rarely flues a twin to get you your multi

You wouldnt want a guy that hasn't seen IMC in years to help you with your instrument ticket
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Dude...there's a huge gap between some CFI who has only rarely flown tailwheel airplanes, and someone who makes a living doing nothing but flying tailwheel airplanes. The most experienced tailwheel pilot in the world won't be worth a damn as in instructor if they can't actually communicate and TEACH well. Are you an AG pilots yourself? If not, when according to your own logic, you never had any business teaching tailwheel. If you are an AG pilot, you really need to get over yourself. That doesn't necessarily make you anything special as a tailwheel pilot. It ain't that complicated. I now have that feeling I get after feeding a troll. ;)
 
RoscoeT said:
Dude...there's a huge gap between some CFI who has only rarely flown tailwheel airplanes, and someone who makes a living doing nothing but flying tailwheel airplanes. The most experienced tailwheel pilot in the world won't be worth a damn as in instructor if they can't actually communicate and TEACH well. Are you an AG pilots yourself? If not, when according to your own logic, you never had any business teaching tailwheel. If you are an AG pilot, you really need to get over yourself. That doesn't necessarily make you anything special as a tailwheel pilot. It ain't that complicated. I now have that feeling I get after feeding a troll. ;)
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And vise versa as well.


You guys crack me up. I simply stated this guy might want to call a school that does nothing but train career TAILWHEEL pilots, who employs CFIs who have WORKED in tailwheel aircraft and do nothing but teach people to be both safe t/w pilots and employable as a t/w pilot.

IMHO a place like AG Flight will be worth far more to the OP then learning t/w from a guy who "does it on the side" or happens to own a 185 or Pitts or something.
 
ChitDisturber said:
I simply stated this guy might want to call a school that does nothing but train career TAILWHEEL pilots, who employs CFIs who have WORKED in tailwheel aircraft and do nothing but teach people to be both safe t/w pilots and employable as a t/w pilot.
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No you didn't. You said the OP should specifically find only AG pilots to teach him. That's a load of BS. And there doesn't seem to be anyone here who agrees with you, Mr. Disturber. I think your screen name says it all.
 
I'm a corp pilot that teaches tailwheel on the side and owns a pitts.

Based on this thread i'd better just surrender my certificates to the FAA.

:(
 
RoscoeT said:
No you didn't. You said the OP should specifically find only AG pilots to teach him. That's a load of BS. And there doesn't seem to be anyone here who agrees with you, Mr. Disturber. I think your screen name says it all.
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Or any working t/w pilot.

It's just easier to find guy who fly a thrush or tractor for a living and instruct then a 121-135 DC3.

lr60plt said:
I'm a corp pilot that teaches tailwheel on the side and owns a pitts.
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Seems like most of the older corp or airline jet guys around here have a Pitts or carbon cub.

A systems manager/IFR type pilot is far from a stick and rudder VFR taildragger. Simply put, as someone who as a little experience with tailwheel, find someone who has OPERATIONAL experience and has worked taildraggers who is also a teacher.

I mentioned one school, there are also some operators in AK who both work the bush and instuct too, that would be another option.
 
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ChitDisturber said:
A systems manager/IFR type pilot is far from a stick and rudder VFR taildragger. Simply put, as someone who as a little experience with tailwheel, find someone who has OPERATIONAL experience and has worked taildraggers who is also a teacher.
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What's the difference between "operational" and non-operational experience? :confused: Most tailwheel instructors I know have done more than just read books and play on the flight sim. Is getting paid your criteria? Well flight instructors get paid. You're still out on a limb here.
 
ChitDisturber said:
Seems like most of the older corp or airline jet guys around here have a Pitts or carbon cub.
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Im 28.

ChitDisturber said:
A systems manager/IFR type pilot is far from a stick and rudder VFR taildragger. Simply put, as someone who as a little experience with tailwheel, find someone who has OPERATIONAL experience and has worked taildraggers who is also a teacher.
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Wrong again. Many pilots can easily be both.

I've taught tailwheel for years...in fact its the only thing i teach (with basic aerobatic / upset recovery as part of that). I don't do any primary / ifr / comm students at all. My Pitts is a single seat s1s, I teach in Citabria's, Luscombes, Cubs, Cessna, RV's...etc.

Seems you have a real disconnect with a lot of the pilots that are actually out there, or have been exposed to an unimpressive selection of them.
 
RoscoeT said:
What's the difference between "operational" and non-operational experience? :confused: Most tailwheel instructors I know have done more than just read books and play on the flight sim. Is getting paid your criteria? Well flight instructors get paid. You're still out on a limb here.
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Perhaps I could have been clearer.

Worked as a commercial tailwheel pilot outside of instruction.
 
Are 95% of normal / tricycle instructors (Pvt/Inst/Comm) unqualified because they have never had a flying job outside of instruction?
 
lr60plt said:
Are 95% of normal / tricycle instructors (Pvt/Inst/Comm) unqualified because they have never had a flying job outside of instruction?
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Wells that's a matter of some debate :)
 
IF my CFI that is teaching me to fly a Cessna 185 is not current and proficient in Cessna 185 I ain't going.

With 300 horse power and an aircraft that grosses 3200# ain't your light weight docile handling tail wheel aircraft.

Anyone thinking just because they can fly a little tail wheeled aircraft, can get into a 185 and fly it safety best think again, or they are an accident waiting to happen.
 
That's a lot of misinformation. I checked out in a 180 in an hour and a half after 2500 hours in all kinds of taildraggers. The Stearman checkout was 2 hours. Flew both for long time and did well. A Cessna 185 is not a complex airplane and with a modicum of tail wheel time not hard to fly it quite well. As in most aircraft you get better as you gain time in a certain model. The fellow who started this thread is a well qualified professional and obviously intelligent. He should have no problem handling a 185 . I knew an airline pilot who bought a 180 Cessna in Texas, the owner checked him out over an afternoon. He flew it home to maryland with no adverse effects. ( he had cub time years before)Consider the number of low time women who ferried things like P 51's, P47's B 17's, you name it during WW 2!Google grace spitfire and check her out. Gimme a break! A 185 would be child play for go time.
 
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Tom-D said:
IF my CFI that is teaching me to fly a Cessna 185 is not current and proficient in Cessna 185 I ain't going.

With 300 horse power and an aircraft that grosses 3200# ain't your light weight docile handling tail wheel aircraft.

Anyone thinking just because they can fly a little tail wheeled aircraft, can get into a 185 and fly it safety best think again, or they are an accident waiting to happen.
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I'd say its a safe guess most 185 ground loops are not related to excess power


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dell30rb said:
I'd say its a safe guess most 185 ground loops are not related to excess power


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No they are due to lack of focus or lack of experience in a certain plane. What Ive noticed is when i land my tricycle and am rolling out i can pop the door for air or do anything else and not really worry about the roll out. Even a highly experienced TW pilot that doesn't keep focus on the rudders while rolling can lose it in 1/2 second. The plane is not complex but as any TW its not about the way she starts up or acts in the air its about anything that happens on the ground. A 185 handles completely different from a cub, 170 or Champ. We even have an L19 Birddog and the taxi and roll characteristics of those two are completely different. Getting a feel of the rudders for each plane and then having the confidence to get your feet working and never second guess your instincts are the major factors in not looping one.

Ive got 80ish hours and around 80 total landings in a 170 and a 185 and was doing really well until the tower at KFTW sent me to the north end of the runway from Texas Jet. There was no flag on that end and the atis was still reading a wind for a south departure. I pushed power and everything was perfect until the tail got light and i started heading left. Pushed right rudder, then more right rudder, and finally had it to the floor and my nose was still pointing left and the tires were screeching a bit. We were light and I hit minimum speed that i could get her in ground effect and got her up and as we passed the sock i saw there was a quartering down wind coming from the left. It had switched and the tower never advised or changed runways. In my tricycle that wouldnt have been an issue but it freaked me out enough that I haven't flown it much since. Having a wife, 4 year old and one on the way I still haven't gotten the confidence to fly it much less fly it with my family in there. The 185 is alot better plane for what we do together but it will be awhile before i am in control of it when my family is on board.
 
Ruthless53 said:
No they are due to lack of focus or lack of experience in a certain plane. What Ive noticed is when i land my tricycle and am rolling out i can pop the door for air or do anything else and not really worry about the roll out. Even a highly experienced TW pilot that doesn't keep focus on the rudders while rolling can lose it in 1/2 second. The plane is not complex but as any TW its not about the way she starts up or acts in the air its about anything that happens on the ground. A 185 handles completely different from a cub, 170 or Champ. We even have an L19 Birddog and the taxi and roll characteristics of those two are completely different. Getting a feel of the rudders for each plane and then having the confidence to get your feet working and never second guess your instincts are the major factors in not looping one.

Ive got 80ish hours and around 80 total landings in a 170 and a 185 and was doing really well until the tower at KFTW sent me to the north end of the runway from Texas Jet. There was no flag on that end and the atis was still reading a wind for a south departure. I pushed power and everything was perfect until the tail got light and i started heading left. Pushed right rudder, then more right rudder, and finally had it to the floor and my nose was still pointing left and the tires were screeching a bit. We were light and I hit minimum speed that i could get her in ground effect and got her up and as we passed the sock i saw there was a quartering down wind coming from the left. It had switched and the tower never advised or changed runways. In my tricycle that wouldnt have been an issue but it freaked me out enough that I haven't flown it much since. Having a wife, 4 year old and one on the way I still haven't gotten the confidence to fly it much less fly it with my family in there. The 185 is alot better plane for what we do together but it will be awhile before i am in control of it when my family is on board.
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Left quartering tail wind take off will kill you in a Helio and a 185.
They are the only tail wheel aircraft that I know of that will ground loop on take off.

the accident rate of the 185 is proof that you try to solo with out proper training and plenty of proficiency you are an accident waiting to happen.
 
The accident rate on a 185 is due to how it's implemented. Most are used as bush planes in places like Alaska where flying conditions are far different than they are in say Texas or maryland. Due to their ability to carry a load, ease of handling and rugged design they are very popular in these missions. These uses often lead to accidents. Coupled with bad weather, rough terrain etc. it's no wonder they have a higher accident rate in these extreme situations ( if in fact they really do) many times they are overloaded and attempt to fly out of very short fields. The reason both the 180 and the 185 were and are so popular is because they are very stable, have lots of power and are NOT difficult to fly. I would be much more worried about its history, .....been on floats? Left outside a lot? Damage history? Log books? I would have someone very familiar with them go over it.....not one known to the seller. However, if your afraid of it, stay out of it!
 
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Jimmy cooper said:
The accident rate on a 185 is due to how it's implemented. Most are used as bush planes in places like Alaska where flying conditions are far different than they are in say Texas or maryland. Due to their ability to carry a load, ease of handling and rugged design they are very popular in these missions. These uses often lead to accidents. Coupled with bad weather, rough terrain etc. it's no wonder they have a higher accident rate in these extreme situations ( if in fact they really do) many times they are overloaded and attempt to fly out of very short fields. The reason both the 180 and the 185 were and are so popular is because they are very stable, have lots of power and are NOT difficult to fly. I would be much more worried about its history, .....been on floats? Left outside a lot? Damage history? Log books? I would have someone very familiar with them go over it.....not one known to the seller. However, if your afraid of it, stay out of it!
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+1. I was starting to think you had to be a super hero to fly a ******m Cessna. ;) There are lots of tailwheel airplanes that have a long history of landing accidents by inept pilots - Stearman, T-6, Pitts, L-19, ...and pretty much any other tailwheel airplane you can name.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
The accident rate on a 185 is due to how it's implemented. Most are used as bush planes in places like Alaska where flying conditions are far different than they are in say Texas or maryland. Due to their ability to carry a load, ease of handling and rugged design they are very popular in these missions. These uses often lead to accidents. Coupled with bad weather, rough terrain etc. it's no wonder they have a higher accident rate in these extreme situations ( if in fact they really do) many times they are overloaded and attempt to fly out of very short fields. The reason both the 180 and the 185 were and are so popular is because they are very stable, have lots of power and are NOT difficult to fly. I would be much more worried about its history, .....been on floats? Left outside a lot? Damage history? Log books? I would have someone very familiar with them go over it.....not one known to the seller. However, if your afraid of it, stay out of it!
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I completely agree with you. If you stay in the bird regularly, keep your focus, and don't let the plane fly you then you will be fine. Its just not a plane you can fly once a month and be safe. My dad had 2 185's until last month when he sold one of them. The bird he has now is a 1300 hr original time with no damage history. That is the one plane that he owns that I honestly don't think he will ever sell.
 
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