Cessna 182P PTSD - (Plane Trouble Starting Disorder)

What process works best for you when cold starting your O-470 in 45 degree weather?

  • 4 Shots of Primer, Throttle Cracked, Mixture Rich

    Votes: 8 66.7%

  • 2 Shots of Primer, Throttle 1/4 way in,Mixture Rich

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • 3 Shots of Primer, Throttle Cracked, Mixture ICO

    Votes: 1 8.3%

  • 3 Shots of Primer, Throttle Full, Mixture ICO

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • 3 Shots of Primer, Pump Throttle Twice then leave 1/4 in, Mixture Rich

    Votes: 2 16.7%
  • Total voters
    12
Pilot Steve

Pilot Steve

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 7, 2020
Messages
113
Location
Raleigh, NC
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Pilot Steve
I've had my 182 for six years and I've never found that perfectly easy starting procedure, either hot or cold. My PPONK just has an attitude and wants to be special.

When I follow the POH to start when it is about 45 degrees F out I'll use 3-4 shots of primer, throttle cracked, mixture full rich. It takes about 10 spins before it will slowly lumber to life by gingerly moving the throttle, holding the tongue in the right spot, and waving the chicken in the bag.

Some folks are starting in idle cutoff (ICO) and throttle full forward. Actually it seems like there is an unlimited procedure that works for a lot of different people.

I'd love your feedback on what works reliably for you.

Steve
 
Do you pre-heat?
 
My Stock O-470 would always turn right over with your exact procedure stated above. For hot starts, I found no priming worked best for me. No experience with PPONK.
 
45 isn't cold. A few shots of prime, mixture rich, throttle cracked, feed in last shot of prime while cranking. Never had it not start in a couple of blades.

BTW, welcome to PoA.
 
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Pilot Steve said:
I've had my 182 for six years and I've never found that perfectly easy starting procedure, either hot or cold. My PPONK just has an attitude and wants to be special.

When I follow the POH to start when it is about 45 degrees F out I'll use 3-4 shots of primer, throttle cracked, mixture full rich. It takes about 10 spins before it will slowly lumber to life by gingerly moving the throttle, holding the tongue in the right spot, and waving the chicken in the bag.

Some folks are starting in idle cutoff (ICO) and throttle full forward. Actually it seems like there is an unlimited procedure that works for a lot of different people.

I'd love your feedback on what works reliably for you.

Steve
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You might try this:

2 or 3 shots of primer, throttle cracked, mixture rich, primer is out and charged, then starter engaged and while cranking push primer knob in.
 
What altitude?

We learned that our O-470 gets too much fuel at full rich here from a mechanic who started it with mixture in just a bit from normal ground lean position. It started hard one way, and two blades the second. Still prime when cold.
 
MtnMarcus said:
My Stock O-470 would always turn right over with your exact procedure stated above. For hot starts, I found no priming worked best for me. No experience with PPONK.
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+1 for our 182P. No preheat used at 45F.
 
IIRC 4 shots of primer should have a bit of fuel dripping on the ground.
are you sure your primer is working?

Does pumping the throttle while crank make it start sooner?

my normal o-470 start procedure cold anything higher than 32 Degrees or preheated is 3 shots, throttle cracked. Mixture Rich.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I bet those primer nozzles are coked up. The fuel that remains in them gets cooked by engine heat and carbons the nozzle internals so that the fuel doesn't spin and form the conical spray pattern; it just squirts ino the manifold, hits the walls and flows down and lays there. Or runs out the carb. I have found those nozzles replaced with ordinary AN fittings, a real no-no, and it doesn't even squirt. Just dribbles. Replacing the bad nozzles or the incorrect AN fittings makes a huge difference in the ease of starting.

I bet the nozzles from the old engine were installed in the PPonk when they put it in. The only way to test them is to take them out, reconnect them to the primer lines, and work the primer to see what they do. Should see a nice cone of very finely atomized fuel. And the primer plunger should move in easily. Hard to push means clogged nozzles.
 
I also have a p-ponk in my 182, and I find that about a half a shot of primer is all I need to have it starting within a half blade to one blade. I'm also thinking either your primer isn't working or you're not getting fuel into the engine from the primer? Definitely something is wrong.

Fwiw my primer became really hard to push and needed new o rings and lube. Before the o rings it took 2-4 pumps, now 1/2-3/4. Anymore and it floods.
 
I talked to the folks who developed the PPONK and it was suggested I use 3 shots of primer, start the prop turning, two quick half pumps of the throttle and then pull back to closed, mixture rich.

I'm headed out this afternoon and will try suggestions and report back.
 
So the suggestion above did not do the trick. I had to resort to a flooded start process to get it going. Throttle full and mixture idle cutoff. Fired right up that way.
 
Pilot Steve said:
So the suggestion above did not do the trick. I had to resort to a flooded start process to get it going. Throttle full and mixture idle cutoff. Fired right up that way.
Click to expand...

How very fuel injected like of it! LOL.

Everything has a trick. Just make sure to mention it to the mechanic. Sometimes everyone is using a trick and the mechanic will say “whoa, that’s not right for that engine!” :)
 
Experiment with more prime. As weather turns cool the motor needs more fuel. Find your engine’s happy place.

Beware. If this longer cranking is new? Look for an induction leak. Be VERY careful pumping throttle in a hard starting Continental.
 
In the flight school days as a mechanic we’d pull the props through several times on all engines up to and beyond o-470s before start on cooler days. Seemed to do the trick even though there is no logical reason why it should. Maybe it moved just enough to fuel through the engine driven pump/got the parts moving to allow less resistance to starting.
 
Briar Rabbit said:
You might try this:

2 or 3 shots of primer, throttle cracked, mixture rich, primer is out and charged, then starter engaged and while cranking push primer knob in.
Click to expand...

Yup, the 1/2 inch with a primer ready to "inject" gets me started right up. Should fire in less than 5s. Wondering if OP doesn't have enough throttle in. Too much is just as bad as too little.
 
I’ve had a PPonk for many years. In 45* weather I’d use 4 strokes of primer, increase throttle about an inch to inch and a half, full rich. It usually fires by the time I see the second of my 3 blades go by. The only time I leave the primer charged is for cold starts where I may need more fuel than the carb can provide to keep it going, but that’s not applicable to 45*. As temps drop enough to require preheat it isn’t unusual for me to use 6 shots of prime. Cold air requires more fuel than normal. Cool temp hard starting is usually from not enough gas.

Are you sure your primer is picking up fuel? A healthy Cessna primer should have resistance to pull as it fills and resistance to push as you dispense prime. Mine hums a tune. A slightly lower note when filling and a slightly higher note when pushing fuel out, and the pitch changes with more pressure if I push harder. It’s always been that way.
 
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Stewartb said:
Are you sure your primer is picking up fuel? A healthy Cessna primer should have resistance to pull as it fills and resistance to push as you dispense prime. Mine hums a tune. A slightly lower note when filling and a slightly higher note when pushing fuel out, and the pitch changes with more pressure if I push harder. It’s always been that way.
Click to expand...

I can confirm the primer is working with resistance. I get a similar noise when pushing it in.

This process worked five times in a row today:
  • Throttle open
  • 4 shots primer (cold) - 2 shots primer (hot)
  • Throttle closed
  • Mixture idle cutoff
  • Crank and move throttle slowly to find the sweet spot
  • When catches mixture rich.
 
Stewartb said:
What do you think the mixture is doing?
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It and the throttle sure aren't affecting the primer. Throttle and mixture in then out is an injection system priming method.
 
A Lycoming fuel injection method. Because you're priming with an open throttle using a high pressure fuel pump. It shouldn't have any effect with a Pponk'd 182's fuel system.
 
Stewartb said:
What do you think the mixture is doing?
Click to expand...
Franky, you talk to ten different mechanics and you get ten different answers. What is it doing? Good question. If anything the plane likes to start very rich and the mixture in ICO finds that sweet spot. My question is why would I need to prime with the throttle open since as people have observed, it's not fuel injected and has no fuel pump.

All I can say with any certainty is the last process I laid out above is the one working the most reliably at the moment. The typical process that most are using of four shots of primer, throttle cracked, mixture rich - doesn't do a thing. It just cranks and cranks.
 
BTW, in case I failed to mention it the "official start procedure" I got from PPONK last week is:
  • 4 Prime
  • Mixture Rich
  • Start prop turning and pump throttle twice halfway and pull back to closed
 
You need carb help, primer help, or mag help. I've had a PPonk for lots of years and have several friends with one. Easy starters, all.
 
Stewartb said:
You need carb help, primer help, or mag help. I've had a PPonk for lots of years and have several friends with one. Easy starters, all.
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There is probably no shortage of pf help that I need. LOL. Newly rebuilt carb, new electronic ignition on one of the mags, and the primer operates as it should according to the mechanic that has inspected it. However, I don't think anyone has looked at the primer nozzles.
 
It starts exactly like any 0-470. Unless it's broken. No rocket science.
 
Geosync said:
In the flight school days as a mechanic we’d pull the props through several times on all engines up to and beyond o-470s before start on cooler days. Seemed to do the trick even though there is no logical reason why it should. Maybe it moved just enough to fuel through the engine driven pump/got the parts moving to allow less resistance to starting.
Click to expand...

I tried your trick today and it made for a much easier start. I also don't know why but WTH.

Here is what was working reliably today and previous testing.
  • Turn prop by hand six blades.
  • 4 shots primer (cold) - 2 shots primer (hot)
  • Mixture rich.
  • Pump throttle a couple of times halfway while turning prop.
  • Find the sweet spot where it starts to fire and slowly move throttle in that area.
 
Pilot Steve said:
I tried your trick today and it made for a much easier start. I also don't know why but WTH.

Here is what was working reliably today and previous testing.
  • Turn prop by hand six blades.
  • 4 shots primer (cold) - 2 shots primer (hot)
  • Mixture rich.
  • Pump throttle a couple of times halfway while turning prop.
  • Find the sweet spot where it starts to fire and slowly move throttle in that area.
Click to expand...
Should still start easier than that. Nozzles, I'm still thinking. That prime fuel isn't vaporizing. It's dribbling. In colder weather that means that the mixture that reaches the cylinders is too lean to fire. The fuel is laying in the manifold. In warmer weather the puddled fuel will evaporate and get the mix into a combustible range.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Should still start easier than that. Nozzles, I'm still thinking. That prime fuel isn't vaporizing. It's dribbling. In colder weather that means that the mixture that reaches the cylinders is too lean to fire. The fuel is laying in the manifold. In warmer weather the puddled fuel will evaporate and get the mix into a combustible range.
Click to expand...


I've got the nozzle check on my squawk list for my next service. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Carb heat only provides heat when the engine is warmed.

Cold engines should start great given the proper amount of prime, a good spark, and adequate starter speed.
 
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