Cessna 172rg crosswind

[Marie]

I am a flight instructor at a small school and I do the majority of flying here. My school recently purchased a 1984 Cessna 172rg Cutlass to meet the commercial and CFI complex requirements. After the purchase, the previous owner told me that the airplane does not handle well landing in crosswinds and that it runs out of rudder authority with more than a 5kt crosswind. He said it's because the engine produces so much torque that you always have to add right rudder in. I even talked to the former pilot that flew it the most and she said it can be a dog in crosswind landings and that it had been an issue for her. She also said that you have to taxi very slowly around corners because the landing gear is somewhat weak. She has a lot more hours flying than me or any of my instructors do so if she had issues, it's going to be a problem for us.

As the instructor that will be doing most of the training, is there any way to correct these limitations? 5kts or less of crosswind is a severe limitation here. We get crosswinds of 8-20kts on a regular basis. Could we add a rudder trim tab or something? Do something to decrease the torque? Something to help the commercial students to fly it easier? And are there any other issues with this aircraft that I should be aware of? Any ideas are appreciated.

 

[DoubleD]

What does the POH say? Lot's of people, even experienced, have trouble with crosswinds. Have you pushed the envelope yourself? ----if not, suggest that as a first step.

 

[Marie]

The poh says 15kts crosswind. I have done 20 kts in a 172, but not the RG. I have taken it up a couple times and it does take more right rudder than normal but there wasnt much wind so I couldn't tell how it would handle.

 

[Clip4]

A. The owner does not know how to do a cross wind landing.
B. There is a defect in plane.

Start on the ground, have someone fully depress the rudder pedals in each direction. Note if the pedals go full travel and note the rudder deflection. With the rudder fully deflected, carefully push the rudder to see if it will deflect further.

 

[jsstevens]

I would think, based on my unscientific experience, that the right rudder due to torque would only be an issue when powered up to climb (or way on the back side of the power curve). If you're essentially gliding when touching down it would have no effect. As to the fragility of the landing gear, I have no idea.

 

[Palmpilot]

I have about 430 hours in the model, and haven't run into a problem. Most of the ones I've flown were built in 1980, but it seems unlikely that they would have made a drastic change after that.

 

[skier]

As others have said, it seems like either a problem with the plane or the pilot. I had no issues with crosswinds approaching the max demonstrated x-wind component when I was flying one in Kansas.

I also have never heard of the gear being weak. It still had to pass the certification requirements of the time. I wouldn't worry about it, it should be plenty strong.

 

[Pilawt]

After the purchase, the previous owner told me that the airplane does not handle well landing in crosswinds and that it runs out of rudder authority with more than a 5kt crosswind. He said it's because the engine produces so much torque that you always have to add right rudder in.

Shouldn't be any different from a fixed-gear 180 hp Skyhawk. Other than open wheel wells they're aerodynamically identical. The swept tail cuts rudder authority a little compared to the old straight-tail 172s, but 20k steady direct x-wind is do-able -- especially so with partial flap and a couple extra knots to get some more air past the rudder (as the manual says).

A. The owner does not know how to do a cross wind landing.
B. There is a defect in plane.

Start on the ground, have someone fully depress the rudder pedals in each direction. Note if the pedals go full travel and note the rudder deflection. With the rudder fully deflected, carefully push the rudder to see if it will deflect further.

^^ This.

As others have said, it seems like either a problem with the plane or the pilot. I had no issues with crosswinds approaching the max demonstrated x-wind component when I was flying one in Kansas.

I also have never heard of the gear being weak. It still had to pass the certification requirements of the time. I wouldn't worry about it, it should be plenty strong.

Likewise. Take the streamlined fairing off a post-1971 fixed-gear 172 gear leg, and it's the same skinny tube as on the 172RG. I've heard of reliability issues with the 172RG retraction mechanism, but once down and locked it's stout enough.

 

[yakdriver]

I have a bunch of hours in one and landed many times in over 20kt crosswinds. Never had any problems and don't remember any excessive torque as its only 180hp. The problem I see is a lot of instructors don't know proper crosswind technique and that gets passed down to students. I hope you make sure your students get some good crosswind experience during the time they spend with you. Get them out in a good gusty over 15kt day. Don

 

[Axtel4]

@Marie Does your RG have rudder trim?

 

[Palmpilot]

@Marie Does your RG have rudder trim?

My 1981 172RG manual lists it as standard equipment.

 

[Axtel4]

It is standard in our RG. I didn't know if it was still true for an '84.

 

[Bill]

Is the plane properly rigged?

 

[champ driver]

A. The owner does not know how to do a cross wind landing.
B. There is a defect in plane.

Start on the ground, have someone fully depress the rudder pedals in each direction. Note if the pedals go full travel and note the rudder deflection. With the rudder fully deflected, carefully push the rudder to see if it will deflect further.

Find out what the limits are on rudder travel and measure that it's meeting those limits, it's a rudder rigging issue if it's B. Otherwise it's a pilot issue, A.
I've never flown a Cutlass but I have lots of time in a 182RG and never had any crosswind problems, or taxiing problems either.

 

[denverpilot]

Have a bunch of hours in a 172RG, and never saw any limitations in the POH, or in the real world, where only 5 knots was possible in a cross-wind landing. Something is wrong with it, or someone is lying in an effort to protect the gear from side-loads.

 

[sgenie]

Hmmm... I did plenty of high crosswind landings in 172RG, some of them were _very_ hairy - and she flies beautifully there.

 

[mondtster]

Is the plane properly rigged?

That was my first thought...

I think the OP should seek out a qualified instructor (not the one who was previously flying it) to check them out in the plane and also do a flight check on the plane. If that qualified instructor says it is fine then I probably would just assume that the previous owner and flight school didn't know what they were talking about. If they say something is wrong, then I'd dig deeper.

 

[SkyDog58]

I am a flight instructor at a small school and I do the majority of flying here. My school recently purchased a 1984 Cessna 172rg Cutlass to meet the commercial and CFI complex requirements. After the purchase, the previous owner told me that the airplane does not handle well landing in crosswinds and that it runs out of rudder authority with more than a 5kt crosswind. He said it's because the engine produces so much torque that you always have to add right rudder in. I even talked to the former pilot that flew it the most and she said it can be a dog in crosswind landings and that it had been an issue for her. She also said that you have to taxi very slowly around corners because the landing gear is somewhat weak. She has a lot more hours flying than me or any of my instructors do so if she had issues, it's going to be a problem for us.

As the instructor that will be doing most of the training, is there any way to correct these limitations? 5kts or less of crosswind is a severe limitation here. We get crosswinds of 8-20kts on a regular basis. Could we add a rudder trim tab or something? Do something to decrease the torque? Something to help the commercial students to fly it easier? And are there any other issues with this aircraft that I should be aware of? Any ideas are appreciated.

If it runs out of rudder in a 5kt crosswind, I doubt that it would have enough rudder to maintain runway heading on takeoff. If maintaining runway heading is not an issue, you at least have a decent amount of rudder authority. At least right rudder.

As to adding a rudder trim tab, that would be a major alteration and I doubt if your FSDO would go along with it. Besides a trim tab's purpose is to be adjusted so that the plane flys straight. It does not increase the amount of rudder available. Also since the plane probably has rudder trim (I think all of the RGs did), adding a seperate trim tab would not add much if anything to the equation. If there is an issue with the rudder, it is a rigging issue as others have suggested. Having an A&P check the rigging would be the best starting point. I'd have him check all of the flight controls while he's at it. The quick check for you for the rudder is to have someone depress the rudder pedals and see if it hits its full travel stops.

Decrease torque? I guess you could put a smaller engine in it but that would be a majore alteration as well and I gurantee you that you would not get FAA approval for that. But the engine and its torque is not the issue here.

Something to help the commercial students fly it easier? No. If the airplane is rigged properly, a commercial student should have no issues flying it. It is still a freakin' 172.

As others have suggested, there is either a rudder rigging issue or the previous pilot does not know how to handle crosswinds very well. Have the rudder checked and then go flying. Throw the plane around a bit with the rudder to test its responsiveness. Then find an airport with a decent crosswind and see how it handles. Doing all of this you will most likely either discover a misrigged rudder or decide the previous pilot's skill was insufficient.

 

[iamtheari]

http://www.wright-b-flyer.org/wright-b-flyer-a-pilot-perspective/

A replica Wright B Flyer can take off and land in 10mph crosswinds. Extrapolate as desired to the topic at hand.

 

[labbadabba]

To me, with the gear down, it flies like any other 172. I don't notice any difference at all landing the thing.

 

[FlySince9]

I'm gonna throw this out there for consideration... I had an experience with Skyhawk a while back that some of you might remember... On a VERY windy day, I saw one of the Skyhawks (in my former club) sitting in tiedown with the ailerons and elevator flapping full throw like the gust locks were missing... I grabbed the keys from the Office and ran out to find, to my dismay that the gust locks WERE installed... I was sure something had broken in the control continuity because I couldn't hold the yoke and stop the control surfaces from moving even though I could feel the pressure of the wind I was fighting against it. I took it off the line with a maintenance squawk but the mechanics gave it an all clear... A couple of weeks later I flew that plane in a 12K cross wind and could not bring the wing down after takeoff even with full aileron... I'm thinking the same thing that happened on the ground was happening again... the controls were turned into the wind, but there was not enough control authority in the ailerons to overcome the gusty wind... Something had to have been bent or stretched or something, but I couldn't convince the mechanics because the tensions met spec... So they said... Anyway, maybe a similar thing is going on there because as far as I know, there is no difference between the RG and a fixed gear. They should be capable of 15k crosswinds...

 

[dmspilot]

I am a flight instructor at a small school and I do the majority of flying here. My school recently purchased a 1984 Cessna 172rg Cutlass to meet the commercial and CFI complex requirements. After the purchase, the previous owner told me that the airplane does not handle well landing in crosswinds and that it runs out of rudder authority with more than a 5kt crosswind. He said it's because the engine produces so much torque that you always have to add right rudder in. I even talked to the former pilot that flew it the most and she said it can be a dog in crosswind landings and that it had been an issue for her. She also said that you have to taxi very slowly around corners because the landing gear is somewhat weak. She has a lot more hours flying than me or any of my instructors do so if she had issues, it's going to be a problem for us.

As the instructor that will be doing most of the training, is there any way to correct these limitations? 5kts or less of crosswind is a severe limitation here. We get crosswinds of 8-20kts on a regular basis. Could we add a rudder trim tab or something? Do something to decrease the torque? Something to help the commercial students to fly it easier? And are there any other issues with this aircraft that I should be aware of? Any ideas are appreciated.

I thought the 172RG handled crosswinds better than a regular 172. Fellow instructors agreed with me. As others have said, something must be wrong with either the plane or the pilot.

I have experienced in one plane (not a Cessna at all) that something was wrong with the control rigging and the rudder only traveled about half the amount it was supposed to. Made landings in even mild-moderate crosswinds difficult. Might want to check the control travel against what is specified in the Type Certificate Data Sheet. It says 16° +/- 1°.

There is no rudder trim "tab" on the 172RG. It uses spring tension.

 

[PilotRPI]

Lots of hours does not necessarily mean they are a good pilot. You can solidify some horrible habits over a long period if they go uncorrected. Engine torque at idle when landing makes no sense. I doubt they know what they are talking about. And Cessna isn't going to design gear that can only handle 5 kts.

 

[Tantalum]

Engine torque at idle when landing makes no sense

I really didn't understand that either, why you would need so much rudder in a low power situation.. maybe they meant in a crosswind this person slips it the whole way in? I always thought a crab was easier on pax, less work for the pilot, and less stress on the plane

It honestly sounds like either the plane is grossly out of tune or the previous pilot just didn't have good technique

She also said that you have to taxi very slowly around corners because the landing gear is somewhat weak.

is the landing gear really so weak that turning around a corner may cause it to fail? Or is this some kind of Cessna RG myth just like Cirrus and spins

You can solidify some horrible habits over a long period if they go uncorrected.

YES!!! Anytime someone tells me how long they've been doing X I cringe. Doesn't matter the discipline, so many people assume they've perfected something just because they've done it very long. Most people have been doing some math their whole lives and still can't figure out a 20% tip at a restaurant without a $600 calculator (err, iphone)

 

[dmspilot]

I forgot to address a couple items when I wrote my last post. As others have said the engine doesn't produce much torque when landing. Even if it were true, wouldn't it make it easier to land in a crosswind from the right?

is the landing gear really so weak that turning around a corner may cause it to fail?

Considering the gear swings downward when it retracts, it doesn't even seem possible.

 

[denverpilot]

I was taught a looooong time ago when doing flight control checks on Cessnas to turn your dang head around and LOOK back there as long as it isn't an ancient one with no rear windows.

FULL control deflection should have the rudder nearly touching the elevator on both sides. And I HAVE seen one airplane mis-rigged where full deflection of the rudder and movement of the elevator would HIT and interfere.

If that RG's rudder is working right, it had better be pretty close to the elevator at full deflection both ways.

Of course the service manual has the ACTUAL distances that need to be looked at, but a cursory look for most pilots should be happening at EVERY run up. And it should be REALLY obvious if the rudder isn't moving as far as it should.

Certainly any rudder problem which would make you run out of rudder above a 5 knot direct crosswind.

Go sit in the thing and push a pedal to the floor and turn around and LOOK while moving the elevator stop to stop. Both left and right. It's all visible unless you have pax or cargo stacked above the window line in the back.

 

[Axtel4]

I concur with the others above that there may be an issue with the aircraft. I would suggest having your mechanic look at the Steering / Rudder Trim Bungee.

A number of years ago, we chased various autopilot tracking squawks for a extended period of time. After a burning through a few thousand dollars troubleshooting the autopilot, the squawks persisted without a permanent fix. After going through all the major AP components including; testing the AP computer, rebuilding the attitude indicator, servicing the servos, adjusting the clutches, realigning the HSI, testing the GPS and realigning the NavCom, and checking cable tension; the AP breakers were secured, the AP was placarded as inop, and aircraft was placed back in service pending further AP troubleshooting at a later date. A few months after returning the aircraft to service, the aircraft was squawked for limited left rudder authority making crosswind landings difficult. The aircraft was removed from service for troubleshooting. In troubleshooting the aircraft, the Steering / Rudder trim bungee jack-screw was found fully down placing full right-hand trim on the rudder.

The Steering / Rudder Trim bungee is item 6 in the attached picture. The bungee is located behind the console under the floor. The Rudder trim is adjusted with the rudder trim wheel via the sprocket on the jack-screw on the bungee. The bungee jack-screw is anchored between two springs within the bungee housing.


The following picture compares the new bungee to the removed bungee. The bungee on the left was the removed bungee and the one on the right was the replacement bungee.




In our case, the jack-screw anchor worked its way to the bottom of the bungee housing and "locked" in that position applying full right trim to the rudder system. It was at this point that there was no trim authority from the rudder trim wheel.

Post repair analysis revealed a few items. On the bungee, the jack-screw anchor broke loose and the entire jack-screw assembly would travel up and down within the assembly along the spring coils. When the autopilot was engaged, depending on the crosswind load on the aircraft, the anchor point wound "break loose" and travel within the assembly. This would cause the rudder to re-trim. The plane would move in response to the trim and deviate from the AP track. The pilot would disengage the AP, reset the aircraft heading, and reengage the autopilot and the plane would fly correctly for the rest of the flight. After the flight, the pilot squawked the AP track and the AP troubleshooting cycle began again. After placarding the AP, the airplane continued to fly until the left rudder squawk. This took the AP out of the equation and allowed examination of how the air frame acted without influence from the AP. After the aircraft was removed from service for the rudder squawk the issue was troubleshot to root cause.

It was an expensive repair, but replacing the Steering / Rudder Trim bungee addressed all the squawks.

BTW, there is a manual trim tab on the RG located at the base of the rudder. It is adjusted so the aircraft is coordinated in level flight with the Rudder Trim wheel in the center position. Once it is adjusted, it should not need adjusting again and the aircraft yaw is trimmed by the rudder trim wheel.

 

[Sundancer]

The airplane sounds broke, as suggested by others; 172s can have some hilarious rigging issues and "meet spec" on tensions, etc. Maryland Wing of CAP had a 180 hp 172P that required constant right rudder in every phase of flight, and remained so for years. People would write it up, and it supposedly was checked at annuals - to no effect.