Cessna 172M 40 degree flaps

[jollyroger]

I had transitioned from a 152 to a 172S, then a 172M. I love that M, anyway the M has the toggle flaps and they go down to 40 degrees. Most of the time I make an effort to just glide in without using the motor so usually don't have to worry about going anything over 30.

Well the last time we flew I was a bit high and thought well I've got some extra flaps, what the heck I put in all 40. That thing dropped like a rock, I might as well have thrown an anchor out the window. Well needless to say my son, who nothing phases, told me he got nervous.

Anyway to my question, we were pretty light so that may be the difference but what did make me frustrated was that I was flaring and the stall horn was chirping in what I felt was nose down still. I got it level but landed flat, but not hard. The stall horn was pretty much going off by then. Is there some other technique I should be using using 40 degrees, is that normal and the horn just goes off early? Anyway I'm curious to what you guys think.

 

[poadeleted20]

When I fly a 40-flap 172, 40 flaps is what I land with. Without having been in the plane with you, I can't speak to the stall horn issue, but that flap setting ensures minimum float in the flare, and since runway behind you is one of the "Three Most Useless Things in Flying," I like that. However, with that much drag, it will indeed "drop like a rock" if you get it slow with idle power, so use enough speed and power to stabilize and control the approach.

 

[jesse]

I have flown 172s with 40 degrees and always landed full flaps. You can do it completely power off without an issue. It can be done so smoothly no passenger would ever know the difference. It sounds to me like you were either too slow and didn't have the speed left to flare (have to be *very* slow. unlikely) or you just aren't pulling enough on the yoke.

It sounds like you just aren't pulling on the yoke enough due to a stall warning fear. Keep in mind that a stall warning-- is just that a warning. It *always* goes off for me as I get down to about 10 feet. It stays on until my wheels are on the runway. If the stall warning does not go off during my landings I smack myself for doing it too fast.

Cessna 172 w/ Full Flaps

• Apply full flaps
• Aim for about 60-65 knots *NO FASTER*
• Pull power to idle at about 50 feet.
• Let the nose down some more. It will like it.
• At about 5 feet start to pull back. You're airspeed will start decaying so do not do it too fast. Keep letting the airplane come down though *DO NOT LEVEL OFF*
• At 1 foot, Hold the airplane off the runway until the stall warning starts going and it gently settles down. You can raise the nose as high as you want at this altitude. The more you raise the nose--the slower your wheels will be when you touch down.

A couple of important things to keep in mind:

• Landing too slow and running out of control authority isn't going to kill you if you learn how to properly land. I see way too many pilots start their flare way too high. I fly it down to the deck and then start my flare. If I run out of yoke at 6 inches or 1 foot. Oh well. I fall an inch or two. Better then 20 feet. This works in small light GA planes. Not so well in big heavy crap.
• If it feels like you are sinking too fast.. Are you pulling on the yoke? Go up to altitude and learn how the yoke will feel at high a high angle of attack. This is the most important landing skill. You absolutely *HAVE* to know how the yoke feels because you need to know when you can pull and when you cannot pull.
• If you are sinking too fast. If you get that god awful "I'm sinking way too fast" feeling. Add power and *RELEASE PRESSURE* on the yoke. If you didn't have pressure to release you are either trimmed in a very ugly way or you just weren't pulling on the yoke.. Or your way too damn heavy.

I just wrote the above--but it's basically the way I fly...and it seems to work.

Landing is all about feel. Learning how to feel all these little things that matter. These things are almost impossible to put into words. Fly often and if that doesn't help find a CFI that doesn't suck.

 

[Teller1900]

Our plane is the same way. Flaps 17 is all lift, fairly good glide. As soon as we go to flaps 35, though, we fall out of the sky without a fairly judicous amount of power in. I prefer flying approaches with power...gives you a lot more options in terms of shortening/lengthening your glide, especially in windy conditions. That, and after almost ceasing an engine doing tough-and-goes in Iowa in the middle of January, I like to keep the engine running a little warmer whenever possible (and clear it often if a sustained power-off glide is required).

 

[tonycondon]

id like to see what a power off approach in a beech 1900 looks like.

 

[VtPilot]

Check your V speeds on your preflight checklist. the plane I fly comes in on final at 70knots or 80 mph. You had never used that notch before so not used to using that much power on final. If the speed stays good on final untill short final when you pull it back to idle the landing will be great. Practice makes perfect. Go for a couple hours by yourself praticing full flaps and then the passengers will never know the difference. The stall horn chirping a bit when you touch down is good. Sometimes at KBTV they ask me for a short approach. So I can make it in before a bigger airliner or something. I drop all the flaps and dive. Sometimes its fun to drop like a rock. The tower will thank you after you land.

 

[tonycondon]

70 knots, while it may be in the recommended range in the POH, is pretty fast for a 172 unless loaded to or beyond gross. float float float.

 

[VtPilot]

70 knots, while it may be in the recommended range in the POH, is pretty fast for a 172 unless loaded to or beyond gross. float float float.

true story. I do go a bit fast if its gusty though

 

[jollyroger]

I have flown 172s with 40 degrees and always landed full flaps. You can do it completely power off without an issue. It can be done so smoothly no passenger would ever know the difference. It sounds to me like you were either too slow and didn't have the speed left to flare (have to be *very* slow. unlikely) or you just aren't pulling enough on the yoke.

It sounds like you just aren't pulling on the yoke enough due to a stall warning fear. Keep in mind that a stall warning-- is just that a warning. It *always* goes off for me as I get down to about 10 feet. It stays on until my wheels are on the runway. If the stall warning does not go off during my landings I smack myself for doing it too fast.

Cessna 172 w/ Full Flaps

• Apply full flaps
• Aim for about 60-65 knots *NO FASTER*
• Pull power to idle at about 50 feet.
• Let the nose down some more. It will like it.
• At about 5 feet start to pull back. You're airspeed will start decaying so do not do it too fast. Keep letting the airplane come down though *DO NOT LEVEL OFF*
• At 1 foot, Hold the airplane off the runway until the stall warning starts going and it gently settles down. You can raise the nose as high as you want at this altitude. The more you raise the nose--the slower your wheels will be when you touch down.

A couple of important things to keep in mind:

• Landing too slow and running out of control authority isn't going to kill you if you learn how to properly land. I see way too many pilots start their flare way too high. I fly it down to the deck and then start my flare. If I run out of yoke at 6 inches or 1 foot. Oh well. I fall an inch or two. Better then 20 feet. This works in small light GA planes. Not so well in big heavy crap.
• If it feels like you are sinking too fast.. Are you pulling on the yoke? Go up to altitude and learn how the yoke will feel at high a high angle of attack. This is the most important landing skill. You absolutely *HAVE* to know how the yoke feels because you need to know when you can pull and when you cannot pull.
• If you are sinking too fast. If you get that god awful "I'm sinking way too fast" feeling. Add power and *RELEASE PRESSURE* on the yoke. If you didn't have pressure to release you are either trimmed in a very ugly way or you just weren't pulling on the yoke.. Or your way too damn heavy.

I just wrote the above--but it's basically the way I fly...and it seems to work.

Landing is all about feel. Learning how to feel all these little things that matter. These things are almost impossible to put into words. Fly often and if that doesn't help find a CFI that doesn't suck.

Thanks for the tips, but if anything I would think I was a bit fast due to the flat landing . I'm thinking I felt the slow down and put the nose down too much and gained some speed without realizing it, Remember I was in a 30 degree plane before. (I was more concerned about staying on the centerline anyway). In any case it's strange that everyone says to fly by feel. I seem to fly by visual reference more.

Great more ammo for my wife to believe I have autism

 

[jollyroger]

Check your V speeds on your preflight checklist. the plane I fly comes in on final at 70knots or 80 mph. You had never used that notch before so not used to using that much power on final. If the speed stays good on final untill short final when you pull it back to idle the landing will be great. Practice makes perfect. Go for a couple hours by yourself praticing full flaps and then the passengers will never know the difference. The stall horn chirping a bit when you touch down is good. Sometimes at KBTV they ask me for a short approach. So I can make it in before a bigger airliner or something. I drop all the flaps and dive. Sometimes its fun to drop like a rock. The tower will thank you after you land.

I'm pretty sure I hit the V speeds but don't know for sure I was looking out the window at that time. I just felt like I was more or less level and the horn was going off. Does that sound about right, The other plane definitely doesn't start chirping until the nose goes up.

Thanks for the info I don't want you to think I'm trying to argue :yinyang: Just looking for some outside input. Like I'm getting

 

[VtPilot]

I'm pretty sure I hit the V speeds but don't know for sure I was looking out the window at that time. I just felt like I was more or less level and the horn was going off. Does that sound about right, The other plane definitely doesn't start chirping until the nose goes up.

Thanks for the info I don't want you to think I'm trying to argue :yinyang: Just looking for some outside input. Like I'm getting

Going down final I like to keep an eye scanning my airspeed pretty good. Your way works well too. Someday my airspeed guage is going to break and i'm going to have to do it by looking outside more. Nothing a hundred touch and goes around the pattern won't fix It's funny how before I was a pilot I always wondered why the guy taking me for a ride liked to do so many touch and goes?

 

[jollyroger]

Going down final I like to keep an eye scanning my airspeed pretty good. Your way works well too. Someday my airspeed guage is going to break and i'm going to have to do it by looking outside more. Nothing a hundred touch and goes around the pattern won't fix It's funny how before I was a pilot I always wondered why the guy taking me for a ride liked to do so many touch and goes?

Yes I get giddy everytime I nail a landing too

 

[AWACSEng]

aimpoint airspeed...aimpoint airspeed...aimpoint airspeed... all the way to the power pull and flare

 

[flyingcheesehead]

40 degree flaps are a major drag (yuk yuk yuk ). If you do approaches power-off, you'll have a MUCH higher approach angle with 40 than 30. If you do your approaches power-on, you'll need more power to maintain the same glide angle you're used to.

40-degree flaps take some getting used to. There's so much drag that things happen a lot faster in the flare. When you lift that nose, you'll slow down faster and stall sooner, so you'll have to flare lower and faster (not airspeed, but rate of yoke pull), all else being equal.

It's certainly tougher to do, but it's good for your tires and brakes and lets you get into some tighter spots. Conquer it and you'll be a better pilot.

 

[jollyroger]

40 degree flaps are a major drag (yuk yuk yuk ). If you do approaches power-off, you'll have a MUCH higher approach angle with 40 than 30. If you do your approaches power-on, you'll need more power to maintain the same glide angle you're used to.

40-degree flaps take some getting used to. There's so much drag that things happen a lot faster in the flare. When you lift that nose, you'll slow down faster and stall sooner, so you'll have to flare lower and faster (not airspeed, but rate of yoke pull), all else being equal.

It's certainly tougher to do, but it's good for your tires and brakes and lets you get into some tighter spots. Conquer it and you'll be a better pilot.

Thanks for the encouragement, I love everything about that plane, The flaps are just an aquired taste

 

[JaxOli]

When visiting my daughter recently out in Iowa, I got checked out in and flew the local FBO's 172C. It had the Johnson bar between the seats and 40 degrees of flaps. I've flown the Pipers (Archer, Warrior, and Cherokee) as well as the Cessna 172R and S. I like the manual bar for the flaps, but the 40 degree setting took a couple of landings to get used to. Previous post was right on the mark - flare a little lower and pull back on the yoke a little quicker. I had the stall light (no horn on the 172C that I flew) going off just before touchdown. the 172C was a fun plane to fly - though the cabin seemed a little tighter than the later models.

 

[tonycondon]

what airport in Iowa has that vintage 172 for rent?

 

[CJones]

When visiting my daughter recently out in Iowa, I got checked out in and flew the local FBO's 172C. It had the Johnson bar between the seats and 40 degrees of flaps. I've flown the Pipers (Archer, Warrior, and Cherokee) as well as the Cessna 172R and S. I like the manual bar for the flaps, but the 40 degree setting took a couple of landings to get used to. Previous post was right on the mark - flare a little lower and pull back on the yoke a little quicker. I had the stall light (no horn on the 172C that I flew) going off just before touchdown. the 172C was a fun plane to fly - though the cabin seemed a little tighter than the later models.

[thread creep]
What part of Iowa were you visiting? There are several Iowans here on the board. Maybe we were sharing the sky with you.
[/thread creep]

 

[JaxOli]

My daughter lives in Knoxville and I was renting the plane at the FBO there at OXV. The week I was there last month they had a "fly in" on the Saturday (9/15) and there were a lot of Ercope's there that day. Nice folks there at OXV - very friendly and welcoming!

 

[tonycondon]

My daughter lives in Knoxville and I was renting the plane at the FBO there at OXV. The week I was there last month they had a "fly in" on the Saturday (9/15) and there were a lot of Ercope's there that day. Nice folks there at OXV - very friendly and welcoming!

oh did you see a goofy looking guy there, about 7 feet tall, also looking at the ercoupes?

 

[CJones]

My daughter lives in Knoxville and I was renting the plane there at the FBO there at OXV. The week I was there last month they had a "fly in" on the Saturday (9/15) and there were a lot of Ercope's there that day. Nice folks there at OXV - very friendly and welcoming!

Interesting.. I was at OXV for the Ercoupe fly-in. We got there late (drove) but I don't remember seeing the 172 out anywhere. Small world. The guy that runs the FBO at OXV is a great guy. I spent quite a bit of time there this summer working with cropdusters. I didn't realize the 172 for rent there is 'vintage'. It goes well with their J-3 for rent I guess.

 

[CJones]

oh did you see a goofy looking guy there, about 7 feet tall, also looking at the ercoupes?

Dangit Tony... Don't you have work to do or something?!

 

[tonycondon]

yea...sure....

 

[JaxOli]

WOW - it is a small world!

I wasn't there for the fly-in itself - I came out later in the day. I brought my daughter's father-in-law out and took him flying. He'd started taking lessons over 20 years ago and accumulated about 25 hours or so, but life got in the way and he never finished up. Well, I've now given him the "bug" that we all have and he's in the process of starting lessons again!! He's like a kid in a candy store now! Next time I visit, he can take me flying!

 

[tonycondon]

WOW - it is a small world!

I wasn't there for the fly-in itself - I came out later in the day. I brought my daughter's father-in-law out and took him flying. He'd started taking lessons over 20 years ago and accumulated about 25 hours or so, but life got in the way and he never finished up. Well, I've now given him the "bug" that we all have and he's in the process of starting lessons again!! He's like a kid in a candy store now! Next time I visit, he can take me flying!

it surely is, part of the reason i love aviation so much. such a small and close knit community.

great job re-inspiring the FIL. thats what its all about for me.

 

[JaxOli]

Next time I'm out that way, I'll holler - maybe we can meet up and introduce ourselves in person! You're right - it is a close knit community!!

My guess is that I'll be out there sooner than later - something about a 1 year old granddaughter pulling at my heartstrings!!

 

[tonycondon]

aw hell you might as well just buy a house out here and move.

 

[JaxOli]

LOL... funny you should mention that! I'm actually considering doing just that. The way the house prices are here in Maryland, I could sell here and make an easy transition to that part of the country. It's amazing too how the prices of things are so much different between here and there.

I was talking to the guy there at OXV and was asking about hangar rental. He told me that they had two types - one was $50 and the other $55 a month. The hangars here at FDK (3+ year wait to get one) are $375 a month.

Maybe one of these days, you'll have a new neighbor!

 

[tonycondon]

the more the merrier

 

[woodstock]

The plane I learned in/soloed in had 40 degrees - I kind of liked the extra 10 - but if you had to do a go-around with them all in, it climbed like a pig.

They actually came in really handy during my first solo since I had to follow a few planes in (bizjet included) and was kinda high.

I have only flown that plane once or twice since, now I'm in a newer plane. I thought I had read that Cessna quit making them due to liability concerns but I'd have to double check that.

 

[tonycondon]

i dont think the 40 deg end had anything to do with liability. it became fairly obvious that it was slight overkill and they could certify it to 100 lbs heavier gross weight with only 30 flaps, due to climbing requirements with full flaps extended. of course there may have been some concern about the doofi who insisted on taking off with full flaps.

 

[CJones]

WOW - it is a small world!

I wasn't there for the fly-in itself - I came out later in the day. I brought my daughter's father-in-law out and took him flying. He'd started taking lessons over 20 years ago and accumulated about 25 hours or so, but life got in the way and he never finished up. Well, I've now given him the "bug" that we all have and he's in the process of starting lessons again!! He's like a kid in a candy store now! Next time I visit, he can take me flying!

Haha.. Very funny (and weird).. The reason I went to the Ercoupe flyin was because my father-in-law has decided he wants to get involved in flying via Light Sport, and likes the looks/abilities of the Ercoupe. He had never been around them, so we went down to see if he could even fit in them. I tagged along to 'translate' for him. He actually did some right-seat flying in several military flying clubs throughout his life, but never took the step to get his license until I flew him to OSH a few years ago.

So yes.. Small world. We were both in OXV to help an "in-law" rekindle their aviation dreams.

P.S.: He fit in and loved the Ercoupe, so hopefully I'll be given the task of ferrying an Ercoupe to Iowa within the foreseeable future.

 

[tonycondon]

P.S.: He fit in and loved the Ercoupe, so hopefully I'll be given the task of ferrying an Ercoupe to Iowa within the foreseeable future.

yea im pretty sure that task would be better suited with someone with ercoupe experience, like ME

 

[CJones]

yea im pretty sure that task would be better suited with someone with ercoupe experience, like ME

How about I find a way to fly with you and you can SHARE some Ercoupe experience with me. THEN I'll go get the plane and bring it back.

 

[bkreager]

My daughter lives in Knoxville and I was renting the plane at the FBO there at OXV. The week I was there last month they had a "fly in" on the Saturday (9/15) and there were a lot of Ercope's there that day. Nice folks there at OXV - very friendly and welcoming!

Hey, OXV is about a 50 minute drive from me! Actually, the morning of that fly-in I was giving an airplane ride around Lake Red Rock and I was wondering what the heck was going on over there. That was a beautiful morning-could just about see downtown Des Moines from Ottumwa. Give me a shout next time you're around!

 

[JaxOli]

That afternoon I took my daughter's father-in-law out around the lake there then over toward Pella around west of town - keeping an eye on and avoiding the "scud" that was out west of town. Given the potential of the rain in the area we stayed fairly close to the airport. But earlier, you're right - it was absolutely gorgeous!!!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

LOL... funny you should mention that! I'm actually considering doing just that. The way the house prices are here in Maryland, I could sell here and make an easy transition to that part of the country.

Better way to say it: If you sold your house in Maryland, you could move to Iowa and buy a house AND an airplane with the proceeds. Sounds like a good plan to me!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

P.S.: He fit in and loved the Ercoupe, so hopefully I'll be given the task of ferrying an Ercoupe to Iowa within the foreseeable future.

Be sure it's warm, as you'll have to fly it in open-cockpit mode with your head sticking out!

Signed,

another tall guy.

 

[tonycondon]

Be sure it's warm, as you'll have to fly it in open-cockpit mode with your head sticking out!

Signed,

another tall guy.

thats true, which would make the cruise speed even slower

 

[CJones]

Be sure it's warm, as you'll have to fly it in open-cockpit mode with your head sticking out!

Signed,

another tall guy.

a la Harry and the Hendersons.