Cessna 172H deal - Your thoughts?

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RossG2000

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RJG2000
Hello all,

Have an opportunity to purchase a super low (<1000) time 172H. I've personally inspected the plane and sent it to pre-buy inspection which came back very good with an excellent airframe report (no damage, no corrosion). It needs about $10,000-$15,000 per the pre-buy report (new magnetos, partial engine rebuild for valves and such, ignition harness, new spark plugs, brakes, tires, etc.), not including the interior work laid out below.

Here's where it gets difficult. The plane's panel/interior is almost entirely out of it. A complete set of new Garmin avionics are in boxes and would come with the plane. I don't even have the complete list* (they're working on that) but I know it includes Garmin G500 PFD, Garmin 750, 650, GTX 327, GDL 88, GMA35, G5 as backup PFD, GFC 500 autopilot and other stuff that I haven't dug into yet. The plane will have no steam gauges except a select few for engine. I've been quoted between $7000-$10000 to install all of this. Again, still waiting on the exact list of items. I have a shop that's willing and ready to do it. I'm willing to assume that it's a low, preliminary estimate and that will grow by $5k-$10k by the time it's all said and done.

The price of the plane currently being asked comes with all the avionics but not the install. I've gotten one preliminary estimate for installation. I'd be all in for about $105,000 (plane, avionics, installation, annual, pre-buy, pre-buy items all addressed) etc. At that point I'd be tempted to also throw an EI MVP50 into it, which I'd estimate at $10,000 all said and done. Call it $105k-$120k.

My question is, does it make sense to put this kind of money into a 60's 172 ($105k-$120k)? I am not super experienced in aviation; however, I'm familiar with automotive and marine industries where you can easily "over-restore" and put way more money in than what you can get out. My worry is not flipping the plane or selling it any time soon; however, I don't want to be making a horrible financial decision. My hopes would be to upgrade to something like a Cessna 400 or Mooney in 3-5 years (maybe).

I've been following the 172 market for the past few months, and on and off for about a year or two. Like almost every product, prices have skyrocketed. Does that translate into true values? Or is this a bubble? I see many 1960-1980 172's with many more hours and much less equipment going for 100,000-150,000 depending on the unit/condition etc.

TLDR; is having between $105,000-$120,000 all said and done into a 60's 172 a bad idea for a low total time and advanced avionics plane?

Thanks

*Updated in recent posts.
 
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Some people believe we are at the top of the bubble. If this is going to be your final airplanes and you think the plane is worth it then go for it. Not sure you would get your money back when your ready to move up.
 
Our 172M currently flying with dual G5s, GTN650. GTX345, with decent P&I is almost touching $100K according to vref and our insurer’s agreed value.

Hope that’s helpful.
 
Is the autopilot going to have pitch trim/vertical speed? Audio panel?

Are you going to need a new panel overlay?

I'm guessing your avionics installation alone is going to be $20K+. A lot also depends on what's left behind the panel.

A 750 and 650 is really overkill for a 172. I'd drop the 650 and go with two GI275s instead of the G5 and lose the entire vacuum system.

Now on to the other stuff - 1,000 hrs in an H-model? Everything, and I mean everything, that could possibly have dry rot likely has it. Fuel tank connections, etc. The airframe may be cherry, and you could recreate a really nice plane out of this, but I wouldn't do it unless you are 100% certain you're keeping this plane for 10 years and will fly it enough to justify the cost an hassle of what you're getting yourself into.

Unless you want an on-going project you'll be money-ahead if you can wait 6 months to a year for the market to cool some more and pick up something turn-key, or nearly so, for less $.
 
Coming back to my thoughts. I’d look for a M20E/F now and spend my time and money there.
 
I don’t think you’ll be able to install all of those items for 7-10k. At the club I’m at, they say you basically pay the price of the equipment for install costs. I think our GFC500 and two G5s ran over 35k for equipment and install.

Also you don’t need both a 750 & 650. You could try to sell one of them. I wouldn’t invest that kind of money on an older model. How’s the engine and HP? I’m not a huge fan of the 160hp 172s and I also prefer fuel injected 172s vs having the carb heat.
 
You're going to need more than one G5 to be flyable. The GTN is not a PFD. You didn't mention an audio panel. And are any servos in the box of goodies? AND you're going to need all new interior - carpet, seats, plastics. AND as mentioned before by Jeff everything is probably dry rotted. This might make a good restoration project - if they cut the price in half and you wanted to spend twice what you're thinking and twice the restoration time.
 
I'm not a big fan of buying an estate sale worth of parts and pieces, unless there's a significant discount for my trouble and taking into consideration all sorts of unknowns.
Why isn't the seller finishing the job and selling the plane as a flyable finished product?

I agree on the radio overkill as well.
 
I believe you would still need steam gauges for the airspeed and altitude as backups for the pretty screens.

Airframe parts for those old airplanes are getting scarce. It might have the three-piece McCauley wheels on it that tend to crack, and then you're stuck with replacing them with a Cleveland wheel and brake conversion kit. The main gear legs have corrosion issues, and corrosion raises the risk of cracking and breaking. Cessna hasn't made those legs in a long time.

"Dry rot" is a term that applies to organic stuff like wood, not to rubber and plastic. But the guys are right, the rubber and plastic age and harden and crack and crumble. Fuel lines, brake hoses, oil cooler hoses, vacuum hoses, fuel tank vent and outlet hose connections, fuel tank cap gaskets, fuel selector seals, plastic interior stuff, engine seals and gaskets, nose oleo seals, gascolator seals: all of it falls apart and needs replacing.

How long since its last annual? A whole pile of airworthiness directives might need addressing, and some could be expensive.

Low hours does not mean it's a young airplane. Airplanes rot whether they're flown or not. If it has been tied down outside there will be plenty of other issues, like worn control surface cables and hinges (nothing stays totally motionless in the wind without good external locks), seized control system pulleys (indoors or out, those seize up), worn-out fuel gauge senders, bird and mouse nests and the corrosion they cause with their droppings.

Be real careful. Old airplanes bite.
 
Will insurance write a policy on an H at such a high hull value? They've been reticent about odd combos of equipment and airframe, and this is an odd combo to me.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Is the autopilot going to have pitch trim/vertical speed? Audio panel?

Are you going to need a new panel overlay?

I'm guessing your avionics installation alone is going to be $20K+. A lot also depends on what's left behind the panel.

A 750 and 650 is really overkill for a 172. I'd drop the 650 and go with two GI275s instead of the G5 and lose the entire vacuum system.

Now on to the other stuff - 1,000 hrs in an H-model? Everything, and I mean everything, that could possibly have dry rot likely has it. Fuel tank connections, etc. The airframe may be cherry, and you could recreate a really nice plane out of this, but I wouldn't do it unless you are 100% certain you're keeping this plane for 10 years and will fly it enough to justify the cost an hassle of what you're getting yourself into.

Unless you want an on-going project you'll be money-ahead if you can wait 6 months to a year for the market to cool some more and pick up something turn-key, or nearly so, for less $.
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Appreciate the intel.
mandm said:
I don’t think you’ll be able to install all of those items for 7-10k. At the club I’m at, they say you basically pay the price of the equipment for install costs. I think our GFC500 and two G5s ran over 35k for equipment and install.

Also you don’t need both a 750 & 650. You could try to sell one of them. I wouldn’t invest that kind of money on an older model. How’s the engine and HP? I’m not a huge fan of the 160hp 172s and I also prefer fuel injected 172s vs having the carb heat.
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It's the original 145 HP 6 cylinder continental. It passed thorough borescope and inspection. I'm still having the valves, magnets, plugs, harnesses, etc. all redone.
WDD said:
You're going to need more than one G5 to be flyable. The GTN is not a PFD. You didn't mention an audio panel. And are any servos in the box of goodies? AND you're going to need all new interior - carpet, seats, plastics. AND as mentioned before by Jeff everything is probably dry rotted. This might make a good restoration project - if they cut the price in half and you wanted to spend twice what you're thinking and twice the restoration time.
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I just got off the phone. My original post was incorrect.

G500 as PFD
GFC 700 autopilot
GTN 750 & 650
GTX 345
Garmin G5 as backup/cross reference

The current owner was a good way into the project and claims he has all parts. For what it's worth, he has just under ten airplanes and was in the avionics business and is/was a Garmin dealer. He has the servos already installed, all new cabling, pulleys, new seats, new carpet, new plastics, new dash (still needs to be sent out for final labeling), new windshields, all LED lighting on exterior, etc. I'm sure there's more, I'm still finding out all the details myself. I will post back when I get more info.

Brad Z said:
I'm not a big fan of buying an estate sale worth of parts and pieces, unless there's a significant discount for my trouble and taking into consideration all sorts of unknowns.
Why isn't the seller finishing the job and selling the plane as a flyable finished product?

I agree on the radio overkill as well.
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Too many projects and getting old, is why he is considering selling. I think there's a significant discount, I've been told that the avionics he's got in the box of goods is about $60k-$70k to replicate (parts only), not including what's already done to the plane mentioned above.
Dan Thomas said:
I believe you would still need steam gauges for the airspeed and altitude as backups for the pretty screens.

Airframe parts for those old airplanes are getting scarce. It might have the three-piece McCauley wheels on it that tend to crack, and then you're stuck with replacing them with a Cleveland wheel and brake conversion kit. The main gear legs have corrosion issues, and corrosion raises the risk of cracking and breaking. Cessna hasn't made those legs in a long time.

"Dry rot" is a term that applies to organic stuff like wood, not to rubber and plastic. But the guys are right, the rubber and plastic age and harden and crack and crumble. Fuel lines, brake hoses, oil cooler hoses, vacuum hoses, fuel tank vent and outlet hose connections, fuel tank cap gaskets, fuel selector seals, plastic interior stuff, engine seals and gaskets, nose oleo seals, gascolator seals: all of it falls apart and needs replacing.

How long since its last annual? A whole pile of airworthiness directives might need addressing, and some could be expensive.

Low hours does not mean it's a young airplane. Airplanes rot whether they're flown or not. If it has been tied down outside there will be plenty of other issues, like worn control surface cables and hinges (nothing stays totally motionless in the wind without good external locks), seized control system pulleys (indoors or out, those seize up), worn-out fuel gauge senders, bird and mouse nests and the corrosion they cause with their droppings.

Be real careful. Old airplanes bite.
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Great post, thank you. It does have the Cleveland wheel setup already as far as I know. The airframe inspection came back with no corrosion, paint is in phenomenal shape, always hangared. Only two owners in its lifetime. It hasn't had an annual in a while so that is something I'll need to do more digging on for airworthiness etc.
schmookeeg said:
Will insurance write a policy on an H at such a high hull value? They've been reticent about odd combos of equipment and airframe, and this is an odd combo to me.
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This is a great point and one I'm going to have to dig into. I was going to start with BWI but am open to other insurance suggestions.

Thanks everyone, keep the thoughts coming
 
RossG2000 said:
Hello all,

Have an opportunity to purchase a super low (<1000) time 172H. I've personally inspected the plane and sent it to pre-buy inspection which came back as excellent with an excellent airframe report with no damage. It needs about $10,000-$15,000 to get it perfect (new magnetos, partial engine rebuild, brakes, tires, etc.), not including the interior work laid out below.

Here's where it gets difficult. The plane's panel/interior is almost entirely out of it. A complete set of new Garmin avionics are in boxes and would come with the plane. I don't even have the complete list (they're working on that) but I know it includes Garmin 750, 650, GTX 345, G5 as backup PFD, GFC 500 autopilot and other glass that I'm not even aware of. The plane will have no steam gauges except a select few for engine. I've been quoted between $7000-$10000 to install all of this. Again, still waiting on the exact list of items.

The price of the plane currently being asked comes with all the avionics but not the install. I've gotten one preliminary estimate for installation. I'd be all in for about $105,000 (plane, avionics, installation, annual, pre-buy, pre-buy items all addressed) etc. At that point I'd be tempted to also throw an EI MVP50 into it, which I'd estimate at $10,000 all said and done. Call it $105k-$115k.

My question is, does it make sense to put this kind of money into a 60's 172? I am not super experienced in aviation; however, I'm familiar with automotive and marine industries where you can easily "over-restore" and put way more money in than what you can get out. My worry is not flipping the plane or selling it any time soon; however, I don't want to be making a horrible financial decision. My hopes would be to upgrade to something like a Cessna 400 or Mooney in 3-5 years (maybe).

I've been following the 172 market for the past few months, and on and off for about a year or two. Like almost every product, prices have skyrocketed. Does that translate into true values? Or is this a bubble? I see many 1960-1980 172's with many more hours and much less equipment going for 100,000-150,000 depending on the unit/condition etc.

TLDR; is having between $105,000-$115,000 all said and done into a 60's 172 a bad idea for a low total time and advanced avionics plane?

Thanks
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No...I don't think it is a deal. Super low hours like that means nothing was done over the years. I think you are under estimating the cost to get it in shape.
That airplane may need everything front to back and could easily bankrupt you.
Being a earlier model makes it even more tougher.
No way would I buy my avionics in boxes from the seller and then think I could find a shop that would want to install it. They don't put GFC700 in 172s...

Just like Dan is pointing out above.

Unless you know how to do it all that yourself...
 
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That’s……. A lot of panel. Amazing - But all of that has to be $30k installation? More? And …. Warranty? How can you be sure am you have all the pieces?

And - Everything else has to be rewired - not just panel related but led strobe lighting, etc. Plus dry rotted or what not fittings, etc

If I was the seller, given the back log of Garmin, I’d part out the Garmin boxes and sell the plane as is.
 
I’d walk away from this “deal”, wait a few years, let the bubble bust, and buy the plane of my dreams. Maintaining an airplane is expensive enough, paying retail to restore an airplane seldom makes sense, especially with our economy.
 
Look I get it, it's a lot of avionics for an old slow 172. But it's not really about that. I'm not outlaying the money for the avionics ($60k+) and tacking that on top of a $75,000-$110,000 base plane. I'm getting the whole package for that, if the numbers work out. At this point, I feel pretty confident I've got the right shop to install it all. Same ones who did the inspection and they gave me written reports and estimates for all of it. They've seen the plane, what wiring is already there, and what parts are there.

Look at active listings out there for nice 172's. They're going for $110,000-$150,000. So I could go out and buy a steam gauge 172 for $100k (on the low side) with 2000-4000 hours and then have to spend $15k to put at least G5's in it. Or I could be patient and work this deal.

I'm not saying it's a deal of a life time here guys, but is it as bad as you're all making it out to be?
 
RossG2000 said:
Look I get it, it's a lot of avionics for an old slow 172. But it's not really about that. …
I'm not saying it's a deal of a life time here guys, but is it as bad as you're all making it out to be?
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You asked for advice/opinions and don’t like what you’re hearing. It’s your money and your decision so go ahead.

If I was going to drop six figures on a plane knowing I’m upgrading in a couple years, this is the one I’d do it on.

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.co...piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946
 
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TCABM said:
You asked for advice/opinions and don’t like what you’re hearing. It’s your money and your decision so go ahead.

If I was going to drop six figures on a plane knowing I’m upgrading in a couple years, this is the one I’d do it on.

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.co...piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&dscompanyid=6946
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It’s not like that. I’m not necessarily disagreeing or disliking what everyone is saying. Just being devils advocate a bit as it seems all replies have gone one way and are assuming this is more of a barn find that I’m asking if it’s a good idea to spend 70k in avionics on. Not exactly the case.
 
RossG2000 said:
It’s not like that. I’m not necessarily disagreeing or disliking what everyone is saying. Just being devils advocate a bit as it seems all replies have gone one way and are assuming this is more of a barn find that I’m asking if it’s a good idea to spend 70k in avionics on. Not exactly the case.
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Like I said, your money your decision.
 
RossG2000 said:
I've personally inspected the plane and sent it to pre-buy inspection which came back very good with an excellent airframe report (no damage, no corrosion). It needs about $10,000-$15,000 per the pre-buy report (new magnetos, partial engine rebuild for valves and such, ignition harness, new spark plugs, brakes, tires, etc.), not including the interior work laid out below.
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That doesn't sound like a good pre-buy to me. 10-15K just to get things in decent shape...and that doesn't even include the all the interior work that needs to be done? Plus the avionics install?
It seems to me like the ever-alluring modern avionics are blurring your vision as to what you would have in the end...an over-upgraded, under-powered 4-place airplane. It's not what I would spend 120K on ESPECIALLY if I was going to sell it in a couple of years. That said, if it fits what YOU are looking for, then go for it.
 
$15,000 to get something airworthy, including “some engine work” sounds like a pre buy to run away from. I’m not even sure that avionics stack will fit in the panel, so count on some extra work making it fit in a newly cut panel. The low HP motor is also a red flag. Why spend a bunch of money on that when you can just do the super hawk conversion? If the seller is in the avionics business and owns multiple airplanes, he knows what those new avionics can get him and where the value in a 172 is. If this is an old friend trying to do you a solid, that’s one thing, but otherwise the price seems awful high and will likely go much higher when that 1000 hour, not flown in years airplane actually starts getting flown again.

Too many things don’t make sense and the estimates you’ve gotten don’t seem reasonable. I’d walk away. Buy the mooney above and upgrade the GPS. Get places faster. Be happier in the end.
 
RossG2000 said:
Look I get it, it's a lot of avionics for an old slow 172. But it's not really about that. I'm not outlaying the money for the avionics ($60k+) and tacking that on top of a $75,000-$110,000 base plane. I'm getting the whole package for that, if the numbers work out. At this point, I feel pretty confident I've got the right shop to install it all. Same ones who did the inspection and they gave me written reports and estimates for all of it. They've seen the plane, what wiring is already there, and what parts are there.

Look at active listings out there for nice 172's. They're going for $110,000-$150,000. So I could go out and buy a steam gauge 172 for $100k (on the low side) with 2000-4000 hours and then have to spend $15k to put at least G5's in it. Or I could be patient and work this deal.

I'm not saying it's a deal of a life time here guys, but is it as bad as you're all making it out to be?
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I’ve seen plenty of steam gauge 172’s for 40k. Got an email the other day from a broker for around that price. Yes 40+60=100k that you are paying. It’s 60k of Garmin equipment but who is going to pay retail for unknown/unwarranted equipment? It’s better to get it new from the dealer.
 
When I got a prebuy, the seller ended up spending 40k in repairs to get it airworthy and fix basic things. After I owned it, I put in who knows another 5-10k on other stuff. Now you have an original engine that is updated to tolerances of 1967? 50+ years later things and requirements changed. You are looking at 35k+ easy on your engine. All of the major components are probably old and need replacing too, mags fuel pump alternator starter. When a plane is not run then your crank seals are rubber all deteriorate and you need new ones. Tires intertubes, your cylinders. How about the battery, fuel tanks etc. The list goes on forever. Not being used frequently means things rot away and you have to pay to basically rebuild an airplane with certified parts that you cannot find. How about the electrical lights radios ADSB etc.
 
You want a plane with reasonable hours. Not sitting, not flight training, an all logbooks. Missing logs you won’t be able to resell it or take a healthy haircut on the price. Then how about ADs.
 
Sounds great to me. I'd buy it, flip the plane as is, take those avionics, and get me a 182A,B,C D or 172D,E.

But seriously, those avionics alone with a hull like that will get you more value than you're paying. The H model is good but the earlier ones with the manual Johnson bar are better. IMO
 
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It's clearly not what you want to hear but I agree with the general sentiment.
105-120 will balloon to 150 before you know it and then you're upside down in a 172.

Airplane maintenance is very expensive, installs are expensive, when you open more panels it gets more expensive.
"needs a little engine work, valves and stuff" probably means it needs a rebuild soon if not immediately once the work starts and they see the cam etc.
And then after all that you've still got 165 hp which is not desirable should you go to sell. 172's are much more enjoyable with the 180hp conversion.

Buy the avionics at a discount and put them into the mooney you actually want IMO
 
Less that 1000 hours in the logbook means that it has less than 1000 recorded hours. I have seen airplanes with many more hours on them than in the logs. People do that.

It's an old airframe with an old engine that hasn't been in production for a long time. It comes with boxes of stuff that one has to pay to have installed, on top of paying for all the other stuff that needs replacing. This will cost way more than you think. As an experienced aircraft mechanic, I've seen buyers make this mistake even after being warned that there is no such thing as a cheap old airplane.
 
+1 Walk away. If you do pull the trigger, please post an update so we know how the project turned out...
 
Dan Thomas said:
Less that 1000 hours in the logbook means that it has less than 1000 recorded hours. I have seen airplanes with many more hours on them than in the logs. People do that.
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Not really an easy thing to do unless you're purposely disconnecting the tach and reattaching it before every annual.

I'd be inclined to believe the low hours (which is worse IMO unless it's been hermetically sealed all those years)
 
Justin Brady said:
Not really an easy thing to do unless you're purposely disconnecting the tach and reattaching it before every annual.

I'd be inclined to believe the low hours (which is worse IMO unless it's been hermetically sealed all those years)
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Tachs get old and act up and get replaced. The new tach reads zero hours. You'd need all the logs, right from new, to prove that there were no major errors.
 
And when you are finished you'll still have a C172H. Smooth running engine, but gutless (at least the one I flew was)! I'd pass on this one.
 
Skip this one and shop for the plane you really want.

Accelerate your 3-5 year timeline, rent or join a flying club if you need more 172 time until then.

And my wild guess is this plane will be a 2 year project to get back in the air. Not that the work would take that long but the wait times between different shops required for completion.

Your seller threw out a crazy price on his least desirable/most difficult project plane and you bit on it because of the avionics bamboozle.

Do you want to fly, or spend a couple frustrating years shelling out tens of thousands of dollars at every turn on a plane you don't even really want?

How will you feel when you have $150k tied up in a plane you can't fly yet and you miss stealing a Mooney someone has to unload quick?
 
First-time owner? Familiar with auto and maritime industry means what? Do you have your PPL?

Treat owning your first airplane as getting your PPL. Except more expensive. Each lessons costs $1000.

Should you? Why not, life is short. This can be fun for your or not. That install and squawk list and assuming you have an appointment on the books at the shop , and supply shortages, means the plane won't fly for 2 months. If things go well. If not, could be 6 months. But in general, I agree with the sentiment. The plane is likely to have lots of surprises and that is quite an avionics suite for some other plane.
 
Comes with new avionics in boxes and need installed? Sounds like a train wreck to me.

Where did they come from? How many are stolen?
Will the warranty be valid in the end?
Is the proposed installing shop a Garmin dealer and access to the appropriate installation data and experience doing this type of work?
 
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If the plane will do what you want out of it and you have the money then go for it. If you are thinking that you will get all your money back when you sell in a few years that's probably unlikely. Also keep in mind that all this work is going to take time. Expect it to take about double what you think it will. You could be owning a 120k investment that you can't use for a year ot longer.
 
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masloki said:
Treat owning your first airplane as getting your PPL. Except more expensive. Each lessons costs $1000.
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Not to pile on, @RossG2000, but I'm still in my first year of ownership and I don't think this can be overstated. Make your first experience a pleasant one. Especially, if you're already thinking you might want to upgrade in a few years. Find a nice plane that you can fly home the day you buy it. Where the worst of the pre-buy is a few grand for things you might want to do at the next annual, and not a "partial engine rebuild."

I'm also very confused by the GFC 700. That's an autopilot that normally comes as part of an integrated flight deck from an aircraft manufacturer, not something that gets retrofitted into a ~55 yo Skyhawk. How does that work, with a field approval? Also it's already partially installed, and you have a third party shop willing to step in to the middle of this project? Something's not smelling right. o_O
 
I appreciate all the feedback guys, very helpful. I'm going to go back to the boards and see if the plane can be bought for much, much less. Otherwise, it's going to be a pass at this point. Either way, I'll post on what happens. It will be a cool project if it works out.

My purpose for this 172 is to be my personal training plane for building time. I'm also planning on using it as a trainer for a few company pilots because the avionics will be very similar to that which is in our KA200.
 
Where in the US do you live - simply curious - the 145hp engine in this bird has a reputation for being smooth - and wanting for power.

If you live East of the Mississippi you can "get away" with this easier than those of us that live in the West.

@RossG2000
 
I do not get why you would put all those avionics in a 172 H, unless you are instrument rated then MAYBE, but you will still be flying along at what 110 kts if you are lucky, on a good day in the soup, you do not need them.

While the Continental C145 and look to see if it is really is an O 300 not much difference, the bottom ends are really good, but if you need all that engine work done, I would buy six new cylinders and have a top OH, have the mags OH'd etc.

Who told all that work was $15,000 is trying to get in your wallet, these airplanes are not that hard to work on, get a new mechanic. You can buy the stuff needed and have an A&P do the work, better yet find a guy that will let you help and learn how to maintain your plane,

Forget all the AP since you are new to aviation and learn to fly the airplane without all the the pretty avionics, you can go anywhere VFR with the basics, and an Ipad, then get experience on x countries et your IFR rating, then buy some thing bigger and faster. Do not dump a ton into this plane, you will not get it back.
 
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