Cessna 172 engine out while on the ground.

[3 in the green]

I need to take a taxi run in an A/C piston one of these days.

Don't. I'm kinda spoiled now, at least with respect to flying in the warm summers here.

I speak only for the 172 setup with the Keith unit, but it is fantastic on the ground. The blower is not connected to the standard ram-air overhead vents. It's only routed through floor vents. There are two outlets up front and two for the rear px. It doesn't sound like much coverage but I find the placement to be very effective.

I will say also, the unit blows cold within seconds - and the blower fan is rather strong especially on high. I was not expecting much, but was very impressed the first time I used it. With the relatively small cabin volume of a 172, it was comfortable really quickly, even on a 100 F afternoon (shade from the wings help here too, however). You'd love it.

 

[MAKG1]

Sounds nice, but what does it do to engine temperatures on the ground, when cooling is otherwise not very good? At least the condenser is remote in these things. But it still takes engine power to run the compressor (or alternator if it's electric).

 

[3 in the green]

Sounds nice, but what does it do to engine temperatures on the ground, when cooling is otherwise not very good? At least the condenser is remote in these things. But it still takes engine power to run the compressor (or alternator if it's electric).

No discernible difference from what I've noticed, based on temps shown via G1000 - a valid question though and probably varies by application and airframe. In my example, the compressor is belt driven and visible in the right side of the cowling inlet.

 

[denverpilot]

I train my students to use checklists for every phase of flight. I make sure they see me do a checklist because I want them to see I practice what I preach. They may not be flying a 747 but they may eventually want to fly an airliner or do corporate. Both require strict checklist discipline. Why start them off on a bad foot?

This.

I'm not super-concerned about the checklist use habits of people who know better -- unless I'm conducting a flight review -- but I'm concerned with primacy and new pilots.

The OP said the flight was "rushed" because of weather. That also sets a bad precedent.

As a non-instructor pilot there's certainly been times when weather was coming and I knew I needed to get out of Dodge. And did. Quickly with flows and a pause to double check things in airplanes I knew well.

With a student or prospective student on board, I'm not open to giving in to a speed issue -- or not using checklists -- because they're going to get the wrong idea right up front and you'll NEVER ever break it.

"I saw my instructor do it..." is the mother of all training ****-ups. Doesn't matter if it's a Skyhawk or something more complex.

A demo flight is as important in setting the stage as is lesson number one. Students will emulate what they see. Forever.

Or until someone comes along later and beats it out of them. If they get lucky enough to get to them in time.

Or they'll do it even later, after the accident, as a safety counselor.

And student will say, "I saw my flight instructor do it..." and guess who's signature will be in their logbook...

Demo flight or lesson, it's not worth it. Teach it the right way.

 

[midcap]

This.

I'm not super-concerned about the checklist use habits of people who know better -- unless I'm conducting a flight review -- but I'm concerned with primacy and new pilots.

The OP said the flight was "rushed" because of weather. That also sets a bad precedent.

As a non-instructor pilot there's certainly been times when weather was coming and I knew I needed to get out of Dodge. And did. Quickly with flows and a pause to double check things in airplanes I knew well.

With a student or prospective student on board, I'm not open to giving in to a speed issue -- or not using checklists -- because they're going to get the wrong idea right up front and you'll NEVER ever break it.

"I saw my instructor do it..." is the mother of all training ****-ups. Doesn't matter if it's a Skyhawk or something more complex.

A demo flight is as important in setting the stage as is lesson number one. Students will emulate what they see. Forever.

Or until someone comes along later and beats it out of them. If they get lucky enough to get to them in time.

Or they'll do it even later, after the accident, as a safety counselor.

And student will say, "I saw my flight instructor do it..." and guess who's signature will be in their logbook...

Demo flight or lesson, it's not worth it. Teach it the right way.

My CFI is the same way....check list for everything. thorough pre flight, note fuel aboard etc.

 

[jordane93]

This.

I'm not super-concerned about the checklist use habits of people who know better -- unless I'm conducting a flight review -- but I'm concerned with primacy and new pilots.

The OP said the flight was "rushed" because of weather. That also sets a bad precedent.

As a non-instructor pilot there's certainly been times when weather was coming and I knew I needed to get out of Dodge. And did. Quickly with flows and a pause to double check things in airplanes I knew well.

With a student or prospective student on board, I'm not open to giving in to a speed issue -- or not using checklists -- because they're going to get the wrong idea right up front and you'll NEVER ever break it.

"I saw my instructor do it..." is the mother of all training ****-ups. Doesn't matter if it's a Skyhawk or something more complex.

A demo flight is as important in setting the stage as is lesson number one. Students will emulate what they see. Forever.

Or until someone comes along later and beats it out of them. If they get lucky enough to get to them in time.

Or they'll do it even later, after the accident, as a safety counselor.

And student will say, "I saw my flight instructor do it..." and guess who's signature will be in their logbook...

Demo flight or lesson, it's not worth it. Teach it the right way.

"My instructor said...."

"I was taught...."

I always told my students to question me. I pulled out references or pointed them to references for almost everything I taught them. I was wrong plenty of times and students have corrected me.

 

[denverpilot]

"My instructor said...."

"I was taught...."

I always told my students to question me. I pulled out references or pointed them to references for almost everything I taught them. I was wrong plenty of times and students have corrected me.

Or worse, "I saw my instructor do..." [when he thought I wasn't looking...]

If 80% of learning is visual for the average learner, they *see* you do something... it sticks.

Then you talk and *say* it wasn't right later...

They will still *see* you getting away with doing it wrong in their mind's eye.

80/20... guess which one wins... we're visual creatures.

Monkey see, monkey do!

 

[denverpilot]

My CFI is the same way....check list for everything. thorough pre flight, note fuel aboard etc.

My CFI DPE hinted that 91.103(b) is probably one of the most violated FARs in existence. He said he's had *CFI* applicants show up with flight plans that do not include the required information.

(I had done it, plus more... if you're going to teach...)

And it's right there in black and white. Required. Law. Not optional. Every flight.

He recommended that as a CFI, I should never ever ever allow the key to be turned without the student having completed it, because that's where the bad habit starts.

One of his pet peeves, but a well-founded one.

I bet you could ask 10 private pilots for the information required in (b) as they were hopping in their airplane to depart on an XC and only a few would turn to their planning page and read it to you.

A few more would pop to the airport page in Foreflight and read half of the required information to you, but wouldn't have done the rest.

Ask 'em for weight and balance, a much higher percentage will have it -- or something close -- or be able to pop it up nearly instantly on their Foreflight or other handy calculator.

Interestingly: Ask a twin engine pilot, they'll almost always have it at hand.

Ask a Commercial pilot and they'll have it, either from a dispatch sheet or from something like FltPlan.com.

(I purposefully didn't say what it is, that part is the homework assignment. Grin...)

91.103(b)... is it done and on board for every flight? A fun question to ask...

 

[midcap]

My CFI DPE hinted that 91.103(b) is probably one of the most violated FARs in existence. He said he's had *CFI* applicants show up with flight plans that do not include the required information.

(I had done it, plus more... if you're going to teach...)

And it's right there in black and white. Required. Law. Not optional. Every flight.

He recommended that as a CFI, I should never ever ever allow the key to be turned without the student having completed it, because that's where the bad habit starts.

One of his pet peeves, but a well-founded one.

I bet you could ask 10 private pilots for the information required in (b) as they were hopping in their airplane to depart on an XC and only a few would turn to their planning page and read it to you.

A few more would pop to the airport page in Foreflight and read half of the required information to you, but wouldn't have done the rest.

Ask 'em for weight and balance, a much higher percentage will have it -- or something close -- or be able to pop it up nearly instantly on their Foreflight or other handy calculator.

Interestingly: Ask a twin engine pilot, they'll almost always have it at hand.

Ask a Commercial pilot and they'll have it, either from a dispatch sheet or from something like FltPlan.com.

(I purposefully didn't say what it is, that part is the homework assignment. Grin...)

91.103(b)... is it done and on board for every flight? A fun question to ask...

Granted I have only ever landed at two airports but I know the lengths of all 3 runways off the top of my head. That seems like a pretty important thing to have on hand.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Granted I have only ever landed at two airports but I know the lengths of all 3 runways off the top of my head. That seems like a pretty important thing to have on hand.

Only if you fly a wussy plane that isn't STOL capable

 

[midcap]

Only if you fly a wussy plane that isn't STOL capable

that's a good point....if your plane is STOL capable the walmart parking lot is a viable landing area.

 

[Radar Contact]

Trust no one. With six hundred hours he still a beginner. A ppl is only a license to learn. Try to find an experienced instructor with a few thousand hours at least. Your fault. Sorry.

So how does a 600 hr CFI get a few thousand hours under their belt if he shouldn't be trusted?

 

[UngaWunga]

that's a good point....if your plane is STOL capable the walmart parking lot is a viable landing area.

You can land anywhere once...

 

[Ghery]

My original CFI was a former airline pilot. Checklist, checklist, checklist. I've been flying for about 16 years now, it's still checklist, checklist, checklist. Even pre-flighting a plane I've flown since 2000. Yes, I know the drill, but the checklist keeps me from forgetting something. And when I've been sloppy about using the checklist? Took off with 30 degrees of flaps in a 180 hp C-172N. Yes, it will take off. Yes, it will climb. But, damn, that thing was SLOW. Darned near said the E word until I figured out what I had done wrong. Embarrassing. Especially with my son in the right seat.

Get the message? Use the checklist. Always. Every time. If the CFI wasn't doing it, shame on him.

Jeff is gone now (heart attack), but I still hear his words when I fly. I miss his wise counsel, but I hear it in my mind every time I fly.

 

[jordane93]

So how does a 600 hr CFI get a few thousand hours under their belt if he shouldn't be trusted?

I'd still be at 250 hours if no one gave me a chance at instructing!

 

[FloridaPilot]

Thanks guys, I always learn something new from your posts!

 

[LongRoadBob]

I don't quite get the mentality that demands every Cessna or Piper pilot fly as if they were training for a 747 type rating. I am fine with establishing standards for students, which is not the same thing.

I'm a student, so I am not going to get in, or win, a ****ing contest with an experienced pilot. Which is as it should be. I grew up around planes, but was a kid so when flying wi my dad, who was very experienced, I seem to recall him using checklists in his Cessna.

But as a human being that has lived long enough I have a healthy respect for checklists which my CFI is also adamant about. He pushes, "well, what does the checklist say?"

In truth, being a programmer (c programmer as well as Java. In c you have to free memory allocated, etc. and get used to looking for missed steps) I think I could edit the schools as it definitely has some missing points, such as having the emergency brake on in one area, the next you are to taxi with no mention of releasing. It's obvious, but to me IF you are going to include a certain item, you should continue directions on that item.

But that said, some parts (such as checking brakes just after starting taxi, then making some L and R swings to check compass, gyro, and ball) you have to have in your head after checking or do and then check. The wording is sometimes ambiguous too (for brake check it says "both sides" which up until my fourth flight I thought meant check the right brake then the left brake which would also could be used for checking turn ind. but turned out it mean both sides, left and right seat brake controls)

But here's the thing. Even if not perfect, I see them as important. As a competent driver, I still used to forget to turn off my headlights after a tunnel, or turn them on as twilight hit, or even locked keys in the car (in the old days) and just recently had a dead battery because I forgot to turn off the dome light one night when I had to check something in the car. I respect checklists. Hell even WITH checklists you can make a mistake if you are too used to them and skip steps you thought you did.

Maybe I'm wrong but we humans can be borderline sleepwalking now and then, distracted, or distracted at exactly the worst second and think we did something we didn't. I'm being taught to use my index finger and point to the thing I am checking as I read off the value.

Maybe some planes, some pilots really don't need them, I don't know, but you guys ought to at least PRETEND publicly, and vocally, and specially as CFI that they are end all and be all, because it isn't a good thing to give a student the idea that they are like training wheels and that real pilots don't need or use them. It would have the effect of making them seem trivial and students might get the idea that they need to stop using them to be real pilots?

 

[MAKG1]

I'm a student, so I am not going to get in, or win, a ****ing contest with an experienced pilot. Which is as it should be. I grew up around planes, but was a kid so when flying wi my dad, who was very experienced, I seem to recall him using checklists in his Cessna.

But as a human being that has lived long enough I have a healthy respect for checklists which my CFI is also adamant about. He pushes, "well, what does the checklist say?"

In truth, being a programmer (c programmer as well as Java. In c you have to free memory allocated, etc. and get used to looking for missed steps) I think I could edit the schools as it definitely has some missing points, such as having the emergency brake on in one area, the next you are to taxi with no mention of releasing. It's obvious, but to me IF you are going to include a certain item, you should continue directions on that item.

But that said, some parts (such as checking brakes just after starting taxi, then making some L and R swings to check compass, gyro, and ball) you have to have in your head after checking or do and then check. The wording is sometimes ambiguous too (for brake check it says "both sides" which up until my fourth flight I thought meant check the right brake then the left brake which would also could be used for checking turn ind. but turned out it mean both sides, left and right seat brake controls)

But here's the thing. Even if not perfect, I see them as important. As a competent driver, I still used to forget to turn off my headlights after a tunnel, or turn them on as twilight hit, or even locked keys in the car (in the old days) and just recently had a dead battery because I forgot to turn off the dome light one night when I had to check something in the car. I respect checklists. Hell even WITH checklists you can make a mistake if you are too used to them and skip steps you thought you did.

Maybe I'm wrong but we humans can be borderline sleepwalking now and then, distracted, or distracted at exactly the worst second and think we did something we didn't. I'm being taught to use my index finger and point to the thing I am checking as I read off the value.

Maybe some planes, some pilots really don't need them, I don't know, but you guys ought to at least PRETEND publicly, and vocally, and specially as CFI that they are end all and be all, because it isn't a good thing to give a student the idea that they are like training wheels and that real pilots don't need or use them.

This is a pretty healthy attitude.

Experience is not license to be sloppy. Quite the opposite, actually. Complacency can kill.

We use checklists for software releases, too. It sure helps prevent having a second software release right away....

However, there is a difference between how a student uses a checklist and how an experienced pilot uses a checklist. Especially with more complex aircraft, you perform a flow and then use the checklist to make sure you didn't miss anything. Sometimes multiple forms of checklist. The idea is that if you check your configuration several different ways, you're more likely to catch an omission. You also don't want to spend any more time than you have to heads down in a traffic pattern, for instance. But skipping a checklist entirely because you "don't need it" is complacency. And complacency can very easily kill an 8000 hour pilot, or at least cost him a whole hell of a lot of money.

For instance, landing a Cessna retract, I'll do the "T" flow on downwind (or the intermediate segment of an instrument approach), then the before-landing checklist, noting presence or absence of gear thump. On base (or past the final approach fix), GUMPS. On final, visual on the gear if conditions allow, plus final verification of three green and lack of gear alarm.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I'm a student, so I am not going to get in, or win, a ****ing contest with an experienced pilot.

Hell, that never stopped anyone here at POA before!

 

[LongRoadBob]

This is a pretty healthy attitude.

Experience is not license to be sloppy. Quite the opposite, actually. Complacency can kill.

We use checklists for software releases, too. It sure helps prevent having a second software release right away....

However, there is a difference between how a student uses a checklist and how an experienced pilot uses a checklist. Especially with more complex aircraft, you perform a flow and then use the checklist to make sure you didn't miss anything. Sometimes multiple forms of checklist. The idea is that if you check your configuration several different ways, you're more likely to catch an omission. You also don't want to spend any more time than you have to heads down in a traffic pattern, for instance. But skipping a checklist entirely because you "don't need it" is complacency. And complacency can very easily kill an 8000 hour pilot, or at least cost him a whole hell of a lot of money.

For instance, landing a Cessna retract, I'll do the "T" flow on downwind (or the intermediate segment of an instrument approach), then the before-landing checklist, noting presence or absence of gear thump. On base (or past the final approach fix), GUMPS. On final, visual on the gear if conditions allow, plus final verification of three green and lack of gear alarm.

I agree totally. As I mention, I didn't know it was called flow, but I have to do that as well. On my third lesson my CFI pointed out, the checklist just after starting to taxi has a number of checks but you cannot have your head down in the checklist while taxiing. So I've been learning to flow it. Also after takeoff is a number of points, and same thing there.

I'm starting with those that I have to flow, but my goal is to be able to do it with all the checklist.

First few flights I might ask something about a checkpoint, or issue, and he'd just say "what does the checklist say? Follow the checklist, we pilots are dumb, we can't remember everything so we use the checklist" (jokingly, but serious).

So it was fun a while back when at one point he asked me, in a slightly accusatory way (as a correction) "should the flaps be deployed still?" And I replied "yes. According to the checklist" as I was 99 percent sure I had followed it. He immidiately took the checklist book, paged through, found that the previous checklist was deploying the flaps and no steps so far to retract them again. He just smiled and handed the book back.

I didn't get my little moment of glory ling though, soon after on another flight I was FOLLOWING the checklist, left thumb on each point as I completed, by using my right index finger to actually touch and announce what I was checking, and still somehow I managed to hop over two major points.

But this was because he had me jump over a point, on purpose because of circumstances, and I didn't realize (because of comments following that point, I thought it was just comments regarding the point we skipped) the were still two points to do. That was embarrassing.

But that is another thing, a few times already I have been instructed to skip some points on a checklist. They can be for reasons I am to kid and understand, but that is the tricky time as I mentioned above. Also there are some points repeated, in cases where I cannot see that it is possible something has changed and it would need to be checked again.

Anyway, I take all your points, and thanks for that.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Hell, that never stopped anyone here at POA before!

I think you mean the "gettin' in" part, not the "winning" part right?

 

[denverpilot]

This is a pretty healthy attitude.

Experience is not license to be sloppy. Quite the opposite, actually. Complacency can kill.

Checklist complacency killed a couple of very experienced Gulfstream test pilots, and the gust lock was found still engaged in the wreckage.

 

[OkieAviator]

I think you mean the "gettin' in" part, not the "winning" part right?

You don't win arguments on the internet. Someone typically gets bored and just quits responding, but you haven't changed their minds.

In flying a 172 I have 3 flows I use... CIGARRS followed by PPTIM on climb/cruise and CGUMPS when landing. Works well for me and will periodically back it up with a traditional checklists. in instrument flying I use some extra flows... in the end it's just memory aid stuff so use whatever you want that will help you put.

 

[Cooter]

But that is another thing, a few times already I have been instructed to skip some points on a checklist. They can be for reasons I am to kid and understand, but that is the tricky time as I mentioned above. Also there are some points repeated, in cases where I cannot see that it is possible something has changed and it would need to be checked again.

You are demonstrating here that checklist will not wholly solve the problem that you want them to solve. A certain level of mental acuity is necessary to be a safe pilot. Checklist cannot completely bridge that gap. The same lack comprehension that would allow for a missed item through a flow, can and does cause missed items on a written checklist. Different aircraft and different regimes of flight with all aircraft put various levels of workload and demand on the pilot. Checklist use must be applied in light of that.

My point that you quoted above is that flying a Cessna 172 is not the same as flying a Citation X. Not every pilot learning to fly needs to develop the habit patterns that would prepare them for a career later in heavy, advanced aircraft. Forcing that mold onto all pilots is a mistake, in my opinion. Breaking out the cruise checklist in a 152, to read:
Pitch: Adjust for level flight
Throttle: 2200-2500 RPM
Trim: Set
Mixture: As required

is not necessary. Doing it just for the sake of doing a checklist is silly. If a flight school chooses to do it for habit patterns, that's their business and I dont have a problem with it. I expect my students to be able to do that without referencing a written checklist.

The argument that safe flying cannot be achieved without rigid adherence to written checklist is wrong and ignores the evidence. The argument that aviation professionalism is defined by a willingness to promote checklist use is even more wrong. Professionalism and experience allows pilots to see distinctions and operate according to them, instead of forcing the same mold on everyone and all circumstances.

 

[MAKG1]

You are demonstrating here that checklist will not wholly solve the problem that you want them to solve. A certain level of mental acuity is necessary to be a safe pilot. Checklist cannot completely bridge that gap. The same lack comprehension that would allow for a missed item through a flow, can and does cause missed items on a written checklist. Different aircraft and different regimes of flight with all aircraft put various levels of workload and demand on the pilot. Checklist use must be applied in light of that.

My point that you quoted above is that flying a Cessna 172 is not the same as flying a Citation X. Not every pilot learning to fly needs to develop the habit patterns that would prepare them for a career later in heavy, advanced aircraft. Forcing that mold onto all pilots is a mistake, in my opinion. Breaking out the cruise checklist in a 152, to read:
Pitch: Adjust for level flight
Throttle: 2200-2500 RPM
Trim: Set
Mixture: As required

is not necessary. Doing it just for the sake of doing a checklist is silly. If a flight school chooses to do it for habit patterns, that's their business and I dont have a problem with it. I expect my students to be able to do that without referencing a written checklist.

The argument that safe flying cannot be achieved without rigid adherence to written checklist is wrong and ignores the evidence. The argument that aviation professionalism is defined by a willingness to promote checklist use is even more wrong. Professionalism and experience allows pilots to see distinctions and operate according to them, instead of forcing the same mold on everyone and all circumstances.

And yet, if you misconfigure the aircraft, the NTSB *WILL* blame it on your poor checklist use.

Here is a good read as to just how they will hang you out to dry. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR8805.pdf

Yes, it's an airliner. It's tough to get that level of detailed analysis unless a large number of fatalities are involved.

 

[LongRoadBob]

You are demonstrating here that checklist will not wholly solve the problem that you want them to solve. A certain level of mental acuity is necessary to be a safe pilot. Checklist cannot completely bridge that gap. The same lack comprehension that would allow for a missed item through a flow, can and does cause missed items on a written checklist. Different aircraft and different regimes of flight with all aircraft put various levels of workload and demand on the pilot. Checklist use must be applied in light of that.

My point that you quoted above is that flying a Cessna 172 is not the same as flying a Citation X. Not every pilot learning to fly needs to develop the habit patterns that would prepare them for a career later in heavy, advanced aircraft. Forcing that mold onto all pilots is a mistake, in my opinion. Breaking out the cruise checklist in a 152, to read:
Pitch: Adjust for level flight
Throttle: 2200-2500 RPM
Trim: Set
Mixture: As required

is not necessary. Doing it just for the sake of doing a checklist is silly. If a flight school chooses to do it for habit patterns, that's their business and I dont have a problem with it. I expect my students to be able to do that without referencing a written checklist.

The argument that safe flying cannot be achieved without rigid adherence to written checklist is wrong and ignores the evidence. The argument that aviation professionalism is defined by a willingness to promote checklist use is even more wrong. Professionalism and experience allows pilots to see distinctions and operate according to them, instead of forcing the same mold on everyone and all circumstances.

To be fair I wasn't suggesting turning your mind off when doing the checklists. Going through checklists as part of my schooling most of the items just make sense, I understand why and why in that particular order, etc. and other points I have to stop and think about and then get en "aha" moment because it can give insight.

I understand from your points here, also gave me an aha moment. Your point gave me the insight that these checklists ARE formalized, and the reason for that makes a lot of sense. I didn't really undrstand either why they had checklists like the one you mention for setting cruise on a 152 when all the points in the checklist were actually just what you train to do when flying and setting cruise. But your point made sense. Having it there can give the appearance of overkill and "what's the point?" Except it kind of drills into a pilot that in some other aircraft there will be a checklist for that point that may not only include the obvious. Then again, pilots don't just jump into a new type of plane and assume the checklist will be all they need, they have to get checked out.
But rather I guess that all pilots will know that the checklists exist, and you can find one for cruise, or you check it against.

So, I don't know. I now for sure, for the long foreseeable future I will be actively using the checklist points for preflight, and on up through taxi on out to takeoff, and even the simple ones. Though things like cruise can for now be done as "flow" double checking.

But I actually just thought of a possible reason for even having that simple cruise control checklist, or a few reasons. Hypoxia...could be one. Mental confusion, or a slight stroke, or even just a pilot that for some reason becomes foggy for whatever reason, and are unsure and not thinking clearly STILL know they can pull the checklist out to confirm/check.

And as MAKG1 pointed out, seems to be the rules.