CBD and Hemp products

[wrbix]

Well, at least you don’t believe vaccines work, either.

Anything that makes my arm that sore must be doing something.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

What would that have to do with anything?
That, and any number of posts here, would be N=1 “evidence” - which is noncompelling.
If a good double blind randomized trial is produced to efficacy, then I’d be swayed.

They are working on it. The problem is there is a lot of "noise" from research that is less than rigorous, so the signal gets lost. There's a lot of work being done on the "microbiome" too, but my opinion is that many of those studies are also suspect too, since the "microbiome" is apparently involved with so many biological functions from cognition all the way to stool that isn't too wet. As mentioned above (and quoted below), CBD has shown efficacy for certain forms of epilepsy and is approved for such.

CBD has some level of THC and could test positive on a drug test. If you take drug tests for work, security, or play you should avoid the products. Any level of THC would be deemed the same as marijuana use by the FAA. THC is the detection method for marijuana, which is still an illegal drug at the federal level.

It depends on the CBD and how it was purified, but there's a chance there's a trace.

To be fair, trusting your health to big pharma isn't a guarantee of better results.

Why do you say that? There is a minimum of efficacy that needs to be met, and side effects documented. No medicine will be free of side effects.

It does say that Epidiolex, the only FDA approved version of CBD, is approved for treatment of seizures associated with 2 specific forms of epilepsy.

The CBD available from the corner shop, or chiropractor, or wherever, is the non-regulated kind.

Other than that, I suppose if you go to the CBD/vape store then it isn't considered a "visit to a medical professional". And since it isn't marijuana, then it doesn't fall under the illegal drug category of reporting (I'm not an AME!!!). But because it *might* have levels of THC that could trigger a positive drug test, you are on your own.

Some brands of CBD are claiming they use independent labs to ensure low levels of THC.

It seems they are, I got some oil and found, to the limits of my detection, none. They are also using low-THC producing plants.

I’ve speedread the posts above since my post on CBD, and as a quick follow up I’d like to interject that there seems to be confusion here between THC efficacy and CBD.
I fully agree that THC (ie Medical Marijuana) has efficacy in a number of settings.....CBD without THC not so much (any).

CBD- still under evaluation, other than the Epidiolex mentioned where is has shown efficacy.

 

[denverpilot]

Well, at least you don’t believe vaccines work, either.

Anything that makes my arm that sore must be doing something.

Want a wild one? My autoimmune thing actually DOES have scientifically linked evidence that a vaccine can start an inappropriate autoimmune reaction or amplify one.

The journals still call it a very very small number of cases in an already tiny population, but there’s documented evidence of spinal cord damage immediately following a vaccination for a handful of TM patients, that clearly are linked. How, they don’t know the mechanism. But the timing is flat out impossible to ignore.

Mine isn’t that. I had three vaccinations AFTER my neuro sysmptoms started so it’s unlikely, but those could have strengthened an inappropriate immune system response.

So there. I hate anti-vax garbage with a passion of a burning Sun, but I finally found scientific evidence that they can accidentally harm someone with an out of whack immune system. Yawn, I know.

 

[MauleSkinner]

So there. I hate anti-vax garbage with a passion of a burning Sun, but I finally found scientific evidence that they can accidentally harm someone with an out of whack immune system. Yawn, I know.

So stated another way, vaccinations can harm their target audience.

 

[denverpilot]

So stated another way, vaccinations can harm their target audience.

An extremely small number of the target audience. Probably always have.

In my specific case the journals are saying a tiny fraction (less than 1%) of a patient population of 1200 a year in the US, or if you’d rather, 30,000 of us alive with the disorder.

So you can do the math on that.

And compare it to stopping the polio epidemic. Just as a starter.

Life has risks. This one is incredibly tiny. But it’s there. Yes.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way, I should add that the folks who had vaccines and contracted this autoimmune disorder, the vaccine type didn’t seem to matter. So it wasn’t “flu shots” that did it, or “tetanus” or a specific one. Just bad timing that their immune system went haywire after ANY vaccine.

 

[MauleSkinner]

An extremely small number of the target audience. Probably always have.

In my specific case the journals are saying a tiny fraction (less than 1%) of a patient population of 1200 a year in the US, or if you’d rather, 30,000 of us alive with the disorder.

So you can do the math on that.

And compare it to stopping the polio epidemic. Just as a starter.

Life has risks. This one is incredibly tiny. But it’s there. Yes.

all it takes is one daughter who almost died, and statistics are meaningless to me.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

That’s why pharma will actively fight it with lobbying instead of studying it. Can’t charge $38,000 a dose for it.

Incorrect. Pharma companies screen everything they can get their hands on that might work. But before they can charge anything for a dose, they have to be able to show efficacy. And that is why most alternative medicine compounds don't get much R&D attention from them. They screen it, see that it does nothing and move on to looking at other compounds.

 

[denverpilot]

Incorrect. Pharma companies screen everything they can get their hands on that might work. But before they can charge anything for a dose, they have to be able to show efficacy. And that is why most alternative medicine compounds don't get much R&D attention from them. They screen it, see that it does nothing and move on to looking at other compounds.

They’re not interested in something already on every convenience store shelf in this state for pennies. No way.

Want me to shoot a photo of the counter at 7-11 next time I’m in there? At least three brands sitting there. Price war already on pushing it to less than $5.

 

[denverpilot]

all it takes is one daughter who almost died, and statistics are meaningless to me.

That’s usually how it works for normal folk.

It’s the folk walking around with nobody they know even five times removed that they could name by first name, who are injured by them, and who themselves have a full dance card of a vaccinations, and no diseases... claiming they’re against them... who are the morons.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

They’re not interested in something already on every convenience store shelf in this state for pennies. No way.

I don't know your back story nor your level of knowledge of pharmaceutical R&D practices, but I do know mine. So let's just leave it at agree to disagree.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

They’re not interested in something already on every convenience store shelf in this state for pennies. No way.

Want me to shoot a photo of the counter at 7-11 next time I’m in there? At least three brands sitting there. Price war already on pushing it to less than $5.

Actually, they do screen everything, but it isn't mostly big pharma, anymore. Universities around the world do most of the natural products research now, China being the exception. Their universities are involved, as well as their pharmaceutical industries. Wuxi has a strong presence in natural products. The NIH here also does natural products. If there is something interesting, the pharma companies will synthesize and modify it to improve its efficacy and potency, starting with the lab that made the initial discovery. As of 2014, the last information I can easily obtain, around 25% of new drugs were derived from natural products (J. Nat. Prod. 2016, 79, 3629-661 ). This number changes year-by-year, but it tends to run 20-30% per year. I do work with with some of the parties involved in drug discovery, and worked in natural products myself, so I know something about the process. The USA pharma companies mostly have left natural products research, leaving the initial discovery and screening to the universities and NIH.

The stuff sitting on the shelf at 7-11 is probably mostly hemp oil- with the understanding that I don't know exactly what is on the shelf there, so it could be more than simply oil.

 

[Ted]

Incorrect. Pharma companies screen everything they can get their hands on that might work. But before they can charge anything for a dose, they have to be able to show efficacy. And that is why most alternative medicine compounds don't get much R&D attention from them. They screen it, see that it does nothing and move on to looking at other compounds.

What percentage of a study must show improvement for efficacy studies?

 

[denverpilot]

I don't know your back story nor your level of knowledge of pharmaceutical R&D practices, but I do know mine. So let's just leave it at agree to disagree.

Okay. I’ll let you know when anybody cares that they have a prescription for the stuff they can buy at a gas station. Who gives a crap what they screen when it’s on every street corner? It’s useless anywhere it’s already legal.

For those stuck in states that don’t have referendums I recommend you demand them. It makes moron politicians who are paid by whoever pays for the War on a Plant, irrelevant.

Keeping THC from some of the homebound folk I’ve met who’d love to try it in states without even enough sense to have a medical option is just cruelty at this point. You’re not saving them from a hell they aren’t already living.

The colloquial you of course, not JH specifically. But yeah, after talking to these folks big pharmaceutical can eff right off when it comes to this particular substance and plant.

Even packaging and warnings, we have that covered, just copy our state laws. We were a little naive on that one and waited until some idiot ate a whole box of the high potency candies and blew his whole family away from hallucinations, but people do that with other “approved” pharma too, and it has all the pretty warnings and enough paper printed out at the pharmacy to kill a forest with warnings most don’t read, so who cares? Only the lawyers.

Pharma could have lobbied any time in the last 40 years to produce a THC based drug and the big money in their lobby would have gotten a law loophole. Easily. They didn’t.

People noticed. Mostly noticed that they couldn’t patent it and make insane money off of it. A few states with referendums were smart enough to shun the federalales and their drug pusher buddies in DC. Bye Felicia.

Like I said, I don’t know if I’m ever going to mess with it or have any interest, but it’s just flat cruelty to deny it to people in constant pain.

Judging JUST by the massive amount of warning paper and trees killed by my week supply of a synthetic opioid, I’m guessing it’ll be a whole hell of a lot less dangerous to society than that crap.

 

[1RTK1]

I kinda do have a problem with states legalizing pot for recreational use, not medical though.

"A fair number" of the people that I grew up with in high school that smoked a lot of pot have had other drug problems later in life.

So it appears to me we are unknowingly or knowingly creating a problem for unsuspecting people in future life.

 

[jordane93]

Not worth it. If you test positive, you’re done.

 

[bnt83]

Takes a minimum of 500 people and a long term study to obtain FDA approval for something on-label. You’re one of 300 a year who get this. You going to agree to come off of your off-label drug that appears to be keeping you out of relapse to “try” the new drug and take a risk that you die because you got the placebo? You know what, people do it, and they’re saints. That’s absolutely insane. But that’s the deal the government gives you if you want FDA Approval.

Now mix that with this second problem. Some crappy insurances refuse to approve any drug that is NOT FDA approved and is being used off-label.

Wait a minute... can’t have a drug that will keep you alive but nothing is FDA approved and nobody wants to die to find out if something can be.

The MOST common treatment for cousins to MS is rituiximab. Guess what isn’t FDA approved for those off-label uses? You guessed it. Every MS patient can get it, no problem at all. Every cousin to MS? Maybe your insurance will allow it, maybe they won’t, maybe they’ll make you wait and possibly die while they make a determination that your doc isn’t a moron to try it.

Guess what’s going off of patent and will be even cheaper than it already is? Rituximab.

Been on this myself to treat life threatening BLEEDING DISORDER, IT WAS DAMN NEAR MAGIC IN A BAG, not an approved drug for ITP

Guess what isn’t? Nearly an identical drug from the same manufacturer that will have ten years of profit protection. Ocrevus.

Guess which one costs $38,000 an dose? Guess which one they FDA approved for more things even though rituximab has been used off-label for a decade?

Yeah. After learning all of this, I won’t ever lecture anybody with a rare disorder about trying ANYTHING out there ever again.

The FDA process for rare diseases and disorders without cures is absolutely and completely broken.

Oh forgot to mention. You know what else will happen? Docs wanting to use a particular drug will just LIE about the diagnosis. It’ll cause other problems maybe down the road for the patient, but if it gets the doc the drug they want? It’s going to happen.

For rare life threatening disorders, your damn right it happens, its part of the diagnostic process. Lie may be a bit strong here but everything is guess.

For all these docs know — on SOME of these related disorders the patient DOES have the more common one that’s “on-label”, too. But they have to be free to use their brains and prescribe EXACTLY what they want to. So they’re going to write down “patient has this disorder” and go with it.

Do I trust the FDA process on simple stuff that isn’t rare and lots of data is available? Sure.

I trust the specialty docs a lot more on rare and exploratory issues when they’re still trying to figure it out.

Pushing the idea that FDA approval is some end all for things breaks when insurance companies suddenly think that’s true. Doesn’t work for rare diseases and disorders. Flat ass broken. Go see for yourself.

 

[denverpilot]

Stopped at 7-11 just to grab a photo and a drink.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Stopped at 7-11 just to grab a photo and a drink.

Here's a link to what is in it: https://medterracbd.com/product-cbd-rapid-cooling-cream
Click on either button. 99.6% pure CBD is a little misleading. The CBD is "Whole Hemp Derived CBD Isolate", which is a bit vague.

 

[denverpilot]

By the way the store owner said they’re about to put in a gated area (state law) and stock it with gummies. LOL.

Seriously folks. People kill themsleves ingesting fat, salt, alcohol, energy drinks, candy/sugar... I really don’t care if they have this stuff for their little vices too.

The medical thing of many states not allowing it for chronic pain folks is horrid and cruel (pop some more ibuprofen, that’ll work out well for you...) but I honestly don’t care what anybody puts in their pie hole as long as they don’t operate a motor vehicle while doing it.

And we know we don’t care enough as a society about that yet to not have DUI be a catch and release program at best, so let ‘em have their THC. Endanger someone else we lock you up and take away your driving privileges. Period, full stop, no we don’t consider it a “right” and we don’t care that public transport in this town sucks. Move to NYC if it’s a problem.

Meanwhile, I think it was Henning a long time ago here who pointed out that humans of a certain brain bent will always try to put anything that gives them any mind altering sensations into their pie holes. Others we just don’t care. But there will always be the crowd that just wants to be high all the time. If they’re not hurting anyone, fine.

Hurt others or your kids, we make your life hell from now on. Your call... you get one shot, not three. That’s how I’d do it anyway. Make it hurt back IMMEDIATELY. Monkey gets slapped, monkey stops.

Clearly this doesn’t work for truly addictive stuff. I get that. But for this? Who cares. Just lower the number of “tries” the idiots get who can’t keep it something they do only at home.

Off to go slam my overly caffeinated drink and alter my brain a little. It’ll probably kill me somehow but it won’t harm anybody else. My call. My vice. It does have some B vitamins so that’s nice I suppose. LOL.

When I get home, and if the power came back on, I’ll see if I’m eating a healthy dinner of leftover homemade soup, or some nice fat and salt from a box. If y’all wanna save me, send some nice folks with rifles and flash bangs to stop the carnage. Hahahahaha. Because I’m leaning toward fat and salt. Karen is out tonight so... now is my chance!

 

[denverpilot]

Here's a link to what is in it: https://medterracbd.com/product-cbd-rapid-cooling-cream
Click on either button. 99.6% pure CBD is a little misleading. The CBD is "Whole Hemp Derived CBD Isolate", which is a bit vague.

Yeah it’s a random photo at a random gas station. Just figured folks will laugh who don’t know it’s everywhere here.

One probably has to do some research to buy a quality product.

I have to do the same at the car dealership, and the grocery store, and...

So it’s fine. The grocery store will sell me processed food in a box that’ll kill me sooner, and nobody’s worried too much about that.

I think there’s a McDonalds a couple blocks from here if anybody wants a really quick death Hahahaha.

 

[Ted]

Nate/Lebowski 2020!
“This aggression will not stand, man.”

 

[denverpilot]

Nate/Lebowski 2020!
“This aggression will not stand, man.”

LOL.

Colorado is more like ...

You want a toe? I can get you a toe!

... from that movie.

;-)

 

[Cap'n Jack]

By the way the store owner said they’re about to put in a gated area (state law) and stock it with gummies. LOL.

<SNIP>

That's funny, since it barely has any CBD, probably barely enough that they can put it on a label. I imagine the green cross stores have "the good stuff"

 

[Clip4]

I find it sad that a medical professional would take to hawking an unproven substance, the adverse effects of which are as yet unknown.

You do realize there are FDA approved medications that are ineffective in as much as 80% of the patient/ conditions they are prescribed for and they are advertised on TV.

 

[denverpilot]

That's funny, since it barely has any CBD, probably barely enough that they can put it on a label. I imagine the green cross stores have "the good stuff"

Pretty sure he was talking straight up THC not CBD when you’re selling gummies from the locker cage.

 

[sourdough44]

‘Placebo power’ can be strong, no secret there. CBD products come in all types, flavors, & percentages, many have hardly any ‘product’.

I’m not smitten, but do have a friend who believes. I’ll pass on the CBD products.

 

[172andyou]

I don't really see CBD as being any different than other vitamins and supplements. They are not regulated, either.

That's a *very* good way of putting it, since that industry is also largely snake oil being sold to the unsuspecting public.

 

[bnt83]

To be fair, trusting your health to big pharma isn't a guarantee of better results.

 

[1RTK1]

View attachment 76664

Those are Wholesalers not pharmaceutical manufacturers. How can a company, whether wholesaler or manufacturer, be held liable for producing a product that is LEGAL?!?!

Doctors are the ones writing these prescriptions, not the wholesalers or manufacturers.
If you wanted to stop this opioid epidemic go after the candy man doctors and the street drug manufacturers.

These exhortation fines are just big brother collecting revenue, and has NO positive outcome in preventing this "epidemic". It's a money grab.

 

[Ted]

Those are Wholesalers not pharmaceutical manufacturers. How can a company, whether wholesaler or manufacturer, be held liable for producing a product that is LEGAL?!?!

Doctors are the ones writing these prescriptions, not the wholesalers or manufacturers.
If you wanted to stop this opioid epidemic go after the candy man doctors and the street drug manufacturers.

These exhortation fines are just big brother collecting revenue, and has NO positive outcome in preventing this "epidemic". It's a money grab.

The story gets more complex if you look into what else went on. Doctors were the ones writing the prescriptions. The drug companies also were part of the push for always treating pain to the point where there was none (Pain is the 6th sense or whatever they call it).

There are multiple guilty parties here.

 

[1RTK1]

My current wholesaler and a few "chain pharmacies" were fined hundreds of millions of dollars recently.

The pharmacies filled legitimate legal prescription from legitimate legal doctors, the wholesaler supplied legitimate legal drugs to the pharmacies.
The wholesaler was fined because they should have known better. What BS, it was about money plain an simple. They had the deep pockets, so did the chains.
Why didn't big brother investigate said doctors? They knew who was prescribing what, stopping those doc's and the chain of events that follow would have been easy. BUT........ You can fine wholesalers and manufacturers billions and get away with it.

 

[Gerhardt]

The story gets more complex if you look into what else went on. Doctors were the ones writing the prescriptions. The drug companies also were part of the push for always treating pain to the point where there was none (Pain is the 6th sense or whatever they call it).

There are multiple guilty parties here.

Both the manufacturers and wholesalers track where the drugs go. They knew that massive quantities were being sold through small pharmacies that shouldn't have been turning a fraction of what they were. In many situations the reps themselves reported the problem to their employers and were told to shut up. Some broke the chain of command and went to a variety of sources...FDA, state health and attys general.

 

[Ted]

Both the manufacturers and wholesalers track where the drugs go. They knew that massive quantities were being sold through small pharmacies that shouldn't have been turning a fraction of what they were. In many situations the reps themselves reported the problem to their employers and were told to shut up. Some broke the chain of command and went to a variety of sources...FDA, state health and attys general.

Exactly. They ain't called controlled substances for nothing.

 

[1RTK1]

The DEA and all the alphabet soup agencies knew which doctors were writing excessive quantities and they never gave them a visit, no money there, again it was about the MONEY.
We have been reporting all narcotics filled for years. The government has your name, address, birth date, insurance, doctor, what drug you received, quantity and directions.
The Florida pill mills have been going on for years, how can I know of them and the government not. Apparently they didn't care to shut down the the doc's. Fines are more attractive and you go for the one with the deepest pockets.

My posts have only some similarities with gerharts scenario.

One last point, the pendulum swings back and forth, many years ago government said we were using to much pain medication. This changed to we are not using enough. Now they say we are using to much..............

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Now legal in Ohio, with the caveat that they could cause false positives on some drug tests.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Pretty sure he was talking straight up THC not CBD when you’re selling gummies from the locker cage.

Re-reading your post, you are correct. I saw "By the way the store owner said they’re about to put it in a gated area (state law) and stock it with gummies. LOL." which isn't what you said.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

View attachment 76664

This problem is distantly related to the safety/efficacy question. It shows why we still have a need for FDA oversight to show medicines actually do something useful and document their side effects. The management of those companies knew, or should have known, on the basis of sales information that these pain killers weren't being used for their intended use.
When used in accordance with their intended use, they are useful (if imperfect) pain killers.

 

[denverpilot]

This problem is distantly related to the safety/efficacy question. It shows why we still have a need for FDA oversight to show medicines actually do something useful and document their side effects. The management of those companies knew, or should have known, on the basis of sales information that these pain killers weren't being used for their intended use.
When used in accordance with their intended use, they are useful (if imperfect) pain killers.

But there’s also a timing aspect and that’s what I was talking about. Looks at something like boring old (today) Flagyl. The maker was investigated and fined for off label uses and illegal marketing of those uses, and today they’ll give the stuff to your dog if needed. It’s on label for a crap ton of infections.

People forced to off label use are penalized, sometimes for a very long time, if their insurance wants to play the “must be FDA approved” game. Timing affects the outcome for them. Especially rare disorders with little funding or work on research.

 

[1RTK1]

But there’s also a timing aspect and that’s what I was talking about. Looks at something like boring old (today) Flagyl. The maker was investigated and fined for off label uses and illegal marketing of those uses, and today they’ll give the stuff to your dog if needed. It’s on label for a crap ton of infections.

People forced to off label use are penalized, sometimes for a very long time, if their insurance wants to play the “must be FDA approved” game. Timing affects the outcome for them. Especially rare disorders with little funding or work on research.

Manufacturers can get in a lot of trouble for marketing off label use of their products.
Doctors use them regularly with little to no consequences that I have seen. Insurances on the other hand, especially for expensive non formulary drugs, rarely pay for off label use.