denverpilot
Tied Down
Everyone I know who dropped dead suddenly before 65 would have passed a third class medical with flying colors. Pun intended.
Cautionary Notice from OK City
- Thread starter midlifeflyer
- Start date
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ohio for one.
I suspect BasicMed will result in the same increase in medical deficiency accidents as glider and sport pilots have shown.
OTOH, perhaps Chicken Liitle was right.
OTOH, perhaps Chicken Liitle was right.
azure
Final Approach
Well it seems that a podiatrist is considered a "podiatric physician" and they are licensed in all 50 states as such, plus DC and Puerto Rico. So I just learned something. Whether a podiatrist (a DPM) could legally do a BasicMed exam would be a question for the FAA - or better yet AOPA, I sure wouldn't want to encourage anyone to write the Chief Counsel about this.
But I doubt there is anywhere, including Ohio, that an optometrist is considered a licensed physician. Even the Ohio site's FAQ classifies them as health care professionals and distinguishes them from ophthalmologists who are physicians.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Actually the FAA answered that in FAQs, they said any licensed physician to include a chiropractor.
Q41: I don’t have a doctor who is a M.D. (Doctor of Medicine) or D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy). I do use a chiropractor physician and a naturopathic physician. Can I use them?
A: The FAA relies on the determination of each state (as well as each territory and possession of the United States) as to which persons it will license as physicians. If the person holds a license as a physician issued by any state, territory, or possession, then he or she meets the requirement as a state-licensed physician. However, the FAA recommends that you check with the medical licensing board or authority in your state for clarification as to whether other classes of “state-licensed physicians” are felt to have the privileges, training and experience to conduct all portions of the Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist (CMEC).
Last edited:
Thanks, Bruce. I wasn't concerned, mostly curious, especially since the one thing which was serious wasn't mentioned at all. OTOH, one of the minor ones was the subject of prior comment and correspondence, so "simple and mindless" might be just the right phrase.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
If a DO can do it (my medicals have been performed by DOs for the last decade) I can't see why a chiropractor can't. Gliders have been operated by pilots not under medical supervision for many, many years. Moreover, I would argue that he glider operation is far more difficult, since there really isn't any sort of cruise phase to the flights and no such thing as a go around. The rates of medical incapacitation in gliders is identical to that in powered aircraft. Tells you something right there.
Brad Z
Final Approach
Actually, the standard is "state licensed physician". If the state considers a podiatrist or Chiropractor as a physician, then they can conduct a BasicMed examination. The FAA is not the determinator in this case, the state medical licensing board is.
azure
Final Approach
Reference? The only guidance from the FAA I've seen says that it is up to states to determine who is a "licensed physician". Reference: https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med/media/basicmed_faq.pdf. I know of no state where a chiropractor is a licensed physician - not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of any. But AFAIK the FAA did not specifically include chiropractors.
Again, though, optometrists aren't licensed physicians, certainly not in Ohio, and I seriously doubt they are in any state.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
See you link question 41. In Ohio a Chiropractor is a licensed physician.
https://www.spine-health.com/treatment/spine-specialists/primary-care-providers
Last edited:
Are you sure?
A quick search indicates that Ohio Revised Code Chapter 4731 defines and licenses "physicians" - MDs, DOs and, for some purposed, podiatrists, who are licensed and governed by the state medical board. There are also a number of sections, both in and out of Chapter 4731 which refer to "physician" as someone licensed under Chapter 4731. Chiropractors, optometrists, dentists, etc, are licensed under separate laws. As far as I can tell, the only thing a chiropractor is treated as a physician for is Workers Comp benefits. Of course, one can choose one as a primary care provider, but that doesn't make them a "physician." A "chiropractic physician," maybe, but not a "state licensed physician."
I would hesitate treating a practitioner not licensed under Chapter 4721 a "physician" for BasicMed purposes, but perhaps you have a better official reference.
azure
Final Approach
See my link? That's exactly the question I had in mind when I posted the link, and it says exactly what I said it does.
Maybe. I also glanced at the Ohio State Medical Board website, and under the "Apply" menu it lists all of the disciplines they issue licenses for, and Podiatry was among them but Chiropractic was not. Apparently the licensing board for chiropractors is separate from the State Medical Board, even in Ohio.
And: under "Physician" it says MD or DO, everything else they license is separate. They also list the board members by specialty (About the Board), which includes one DPM, and the DPM is not considered a Physician but a representative of "Podiatric". (But to muddy things even further, even the DOs on the board are considered "Osteopathic" rather than Physicians.)
So I am not even certain now whether they consider DPMs to be licensed Physicians, though I'm pretty certain MDs and DOs are so classified in all 50 states.
But even the site you linked to lists Doctors of Chiropractic separately from Primary Care Physicians.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 16,125
- Location
- DXO124009
- Display Name
Display name:
Light and Sporty Guy
I suspect that this is very close to being correct and I want to be clear that I am not disagreeing with the idea that there ain't no difference. But how would this be determined? If you look at the FAA reports of U.S. Civil Airmen Statistics:
https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/
"An active airman is one who holds both an airmen certificate and a valid medical certificate. Airmen who must have a valid medical to exercise the privileges of their certificate are all airplane pilots, rotorcraft pilots, flight navigators, and flight engineers. Glider pilots are not required to have a medical examination but the numbers represent only those who had a valid medical certificate on record at the Aeronautical Center."
It seems clear that the FAA is tracking medical certificates and not actual numbers of pilots flying on at least a semi-regular basis. (most glider pilots, those of us flying under the Sport pilot rule with a"higher" certificate are excluded from the statistics (and, apparently, aren't airplane pilots)), so how on God's green Earth, could anyone ever determine a valid number? I have tried to look at accidents in "traditional" LSA aircraft before and after the implementation of the sport pilot rule - same "fleet" of aircraft - but the data pretty much just correlates to the economy and not eliminating the need for the medical certificate. Then you have the problem that this would be hard to determine statistically even if we did have a valid baseline for number of pilots / hours flown simply due to the rarity of these events.
Statistically, it seems to me that they just ain't nut'n there.
Now, I am 100% comfortable stating "there is no data to suggest that there is a statistically higher rate of incapacitation" for pilots operating without a medical certificate. Does that work?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The first flaw is asking the FAA to rule on a law passed by Congress. That is a function of the courts, not the FAA.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Bruce, that makes sense for stuff that has been reported already. How might it apply, though, with BasicMed going forward?
For example, say a pilot had his last Class 3 in 2012. Since then, he has been diagnosed with hypertension and high cholesterol and now takes drugs for both (assuming they meet the FAA protocol for same). Under BasicMed, as I understand it, that would not be reported to the FAA, meaning that there is no record with the agency, and nothing to QA (or send a letter about).
Do I have that wrong?
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I think the is actually more accurate than what I posted, though they both suggest the same thing. There is no evidence of any kind that suggests the medical process makes General Aviation one whit safer.Now, I am 100% comfortable stating "there is no data to suggest that there is a statistically higher rate of incapacitation" for pilots operating without a medical certificate. Does that work?
azure
Final Approach
And I agree with this as well. Just for clarity, everything I wrote in this thread was to address the rules as I understand them, NOT whether they do anything at all to enhance aviation safety.
Brad Z
Final Approach
It doesn't apply to BasicMed, as the only way the FAA knows about any details of your medical history is if it is voluntarily provided to the agency, reported to the FAA Safety hotline, or associated with a National Driver Registry hit (not medical history, per se, but a DUI conviction may result in the FAA asking for more information).
Lindberg
Final Approach
A glider is also much less likely to be flown over a heavily populated area and be carry passengers.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Isn’t that the legal point of the medical within ten years? Once you sign that they can have access to your electronic records for that first medical, I see no limit on how long they’re allowed that electronic access, nor any method for limiting or revoking it.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is correct
Brad Z
Final Approach
Your last medical can be nearly 15 years old. Congress didn't explain their reasoning for requiring the one time medical so we can only guess.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Was the form changed about 15 ago to have the blanket “you can have all my private data” phrase added?
So if you were on Basic Med with an old expired class 3 and you sent the FAA notification revoking permission to access your records, what would be their option? Can they somehow revoke a medical that’s already expired? Is there a way for them to invalidate your Basic Med?
denverpilot
Tied Down
I suspect they’d ignore you or fire back another form letter telling you how important them having access to your data is paramount to save the lives of the nuns in the school bus you’re going to kill.
They don’t even follow federal laws already passed about personal data handling by federal agencies. What makes you think they’d suddenly start respecting anyone’s data now? They’ll just say their mission of safety trumps the law and continue as always.
wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Thanks, Bruce.
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
They don't routinely access your records anyway AFAIK with the exception of that time they went checking against disability records. Even the time one of the AOPA board members dropped a dime on a pilot using multiple DQ drugs, they sent the letter to the pilot requesting them to send in the medical records. I suspect the main time they get records directly is after an incident, and in that case your privacy is all out the window anyway. I don't think it's because the FAA respects our privacy, I think they just don't have the manpower to go fishing into everyone's records. I wonder if that will change in the future? Blockchain might make it extremely easy?
denverpilot
Tied Down
A starved for resources government is a good government.
Umm, blockchain would be completely inappropriate on medical records. Medical records don’t need public confirmation of anything and shouldn’t touch public networks unless absolutely necessary.
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
A starved for resources government is a good government.
Agree completely.
It's already being used by at least one entity, Medicalchain.com. I don't think blockchain is only for things needing public confirmation, you can have private blockchain networks that are secure (in theory) from public view.
On the one hand, I'd love for my medical record to require confirmation from ME before it gets put out there to everyone else. On the other, I mistrust blockchain in general at this point, to be all as secure as it's made out to be. But I admit I don't know that much about it yet. I just wish I'd bought that $100 of Bitcoin I was considering a few years back...
Darn, I guess I missed that thread!
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
You can probably still find it but it's years old now. You'd have to scroll back and hunt for it. I quit AOPA or I'd go find it for you.
azure
Final Approach
Me too... I wonder who that was?
denverpilot
Tied Down
I’d trust a privately run blockchain using unaudited commercial software about as far as I could throw it.
Rushie
En-Route
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,017
- Display Name
Display name:
Rushie
Exactly.
gkainz
Final Approach
I believe my BasicMed exam by my PCP was just as thorough as my prior AME exams.
azure
Final Approach
Mine as well. The exam itself was in fact identical in every way to a 3rd class exam, the only difference was that OKC was not involved. The AME was also quite familiar with the issues that were motivating me to go BasicMed, in fact he had recommended that I try for a 3rd class.
Now there may well be physicians pencil whipping BasicMed exams for medically unqualified pilots and it is true that there is no actual oversight of the process by the FAA. Will that lead to a "decreased medical standard"? Hard to say, we just don't know yet. It depends on the ethics of the physicians doing the exams - and on how liability-conscious they are.
1RTK1
Pattern Altitude
My basic med coming up will be vastly more comprehensive than any 3rd class medical I have ever taken.
Not only will it include blood work, ekg and many other incidentals, it will be combined as part of my regular checkup.
Not only will it include blood work, ekg and many other incidentals, it will be combined as part of my regular checkup.