CAT-- is this an issue in the GA community?

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Tracey

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tracey
(Clear air turbulence). It's something that worries me for when I do my first xc on my own. Or is this something that's generally seen more at the Flight levels?
 
Tracey said:
(Clear air turbulence). It's something that worries me for when I do my first xc on my own. Or is this something that's generally seen more at the Flight levels?
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On my first Dual XC my Girlfriend joined us, she fell asleep in the back. And woke up after her head hit the top of the cabin. My David-Clamp fell off my head, and I thought we lost a wing (due to the noise).

That was in clear air.

Its a good thing to avoid, even if you are below Va.
Do you like riding on a really bumpy road? Not dangerous, just not fun.
 
Then again, Northern Arizona in the summer time can be bumpy - ANYWHERE you go.
 
gil_mor said:
I thought we lost a wing (due to the noise).
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If that happened on my first solo xc, where I'm probably going to be already beside myself nervous.... :yikes:

Fly the plane... fly the plane... fly the plane.....
 
Tracey said:
Fly the plane... fly the plane... fly the plane.....
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That's right!
And after a few seconds you realize the plane is still flying, and you are still alive. So you might as well put your headset on. :)
 
gil_mor said:
That's right!
And after a few seconds you realize the plane is still flying, and you are still alive. So you might as well put your headset on. :)
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Words to live by! That should be a bumper sticker.

Thank you...
 
Your CFI should cherry pick the day for you, turbulence can be unexpected, but your CFI will try to get you up there on a calm day. We all hit turbulence, we all hate it. I've never gotten used to it, but I no longer have the "HOLY BATMAN THE PLANE IS GOING TO EXPLODE" knee jerk reaction anymore. It just sucks and can give you mental fatigue, either turn around and go back home (not a bad option), find a better altitude if possible or deal with it. Your CFI shouldn't put you in a situation where there's enough turbulence to worry about structural damage (a la Thunderstorm) or have you on a flight plan where a down draft can pull you down into terrain. (you're not expected to be a mountain pilot just yet)

in other words, If you get in it, the plane is not going to explode, try to relax.
 
bartmc said:
If you get in it, the plane is not going to explode, try to relax.
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:yesnod: Ok. I'll add "breathe" to "fly the plane." (Not in that order though).

Although "Holy Batman" will most likely be my first response. (Well, maybe another more appropriate word instead of 'batman'... but something along those lines!).
 
nddons said:
Tracey, I like to use the G-Airmet tool from ADDS:

http://aviationweather.gov/products/gairmet

Click on the "Turb Low" button, and you can see the area for airmets at various times zulu. I find it to be pretty helpful in planning a flight, and I think it's pretty accurate.
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Thanks for this! This is excellent... I'm going to go figure out how to read it. Thanks!
 
Tracey said:
:yesnod: Ok. I'll add "breathe" to "fly the plane." (Not in that order though).

Although "Holy Batman" will most likely be my first response. (Well, maybe another more appropriate word instead of 'batman'... but something along those lines!).
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If it's really rough and if there's nothing going on with the radio I dial COMM 2 in to a busy frequency and listen to what's going on just to have something to focus on other than how bad the turbulence sucks and fixating on how bad I wish I was on the ground. Singing might work too :) Also, slowing down can help too.
 
Tracey said:
(Clear air turbulence). It's something that worries me for when I do my first xc on my own. Or is this something that's generally seen more at the Flight levels?
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Try to fly with your CFI on a day with turbulence. Best way I know of to learn to manage fear of it.
 
nddons said:
Tracey, I like to use the G-Airmet tool from ADDS:

http://aviationweather.gov/products/gairmet

Click on the "Turb Low" button, and you can see the area for airmets at various times zulu. I find it to be pretty helpful in planning a flight, and I think it's pretty accurate.
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Good advice, although I have to disagree about the accuracy.
We flew from Flagstaff to Santa Fe (300NM) - Forecast called for moderate or greater from surface to 240.
We had two bumps and other then that it was a great smooth ride.

We had puke bags just in case.
 
bartmc said:
If it's really rough and if there's nothing going on with the radio I dial COMM 2 in to a busy frequency and listen to what's going on just to have something to focus on other than how bad the turbulence sucks and fixating on how bad I wish I was on the ground. Singing might work too :) Also, slowing down can help too.
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All excellent ideas... focusing on something else-- brilliant. I like that too.

I knew all you guys would have good ideas. :yesnod:

Thanks everyone.
 
really? i love turbulence, otherwise the flight is just smooth and boring. adds an element of adventure. but then again, i want to land on a road. can't wait to do aerobatics. imo, if you're worried about turbulence, you may be letting the plane fly you instead of vice versa.
 
oh and is this due to last night's episode of two and a half men??
 
gil_mor said:
Good advice, although I have to disagree about the accuracy.
We flew from Flagstaff to Santa Fe (300NM) - Forecast called for moderate or greater from surface to 240.
We had two bumps and other then that it was a great smooth ride.

We had puke bags just in case.
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I've notice turbulence can come and go fast, from KMWH to KMSO, we even had PIREPS of beautiful smooth air from a plane about 45 minutes in front of us at our altitude, by the time we got over MLP standing lenticulars everywhere and we bounced for an hour.
 
CAT is kind of a special case related to the jet stream and very rarely if ever experienced at the low altitudes at which non-turbocharged piston planes fly. Mechanical or thermal turbulence outside clouds is another thing entirely.
 
As Ron notes, Clear Air Turbulence is normally a high-altitude thing. That's not to say you can't get the snot beat out of you down low, but there are plenty of warnings - all in the form of high and gusty winds at the surface and high winds at low altitudes mixing with terrain.

Short of mountain turbulence or convective (thunderstorm) stuff, you're not likely to be flying at all on a day where you'd encounter severe turbulence, the surface or low level-winds would scare you enough to keep you on the ground. So you might encounter some light or moderate turbulence, in which case keep your airspeed down, don't fight the airplane too much to hold altitude or heading. Just maintain a level attitude, let the air move you a bit, and you'll be out of it eventually.

When you look at the wind aloft forecast, if you see a BIG change in strengh or direction (i.e. 3000 - 210 at 20, 6000 - 290 at 60), you can expect bumps between those altitudes due to the wind shear there.
 
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I hate it when turbulence spills my coffee. I have to tighten my seat belt and slow to Va which means we're going to be 10-15 minutes later to the next airport. ;)

You get used to it. My wife and I were out in some stuff that probably qualified as the bottom end of "moderate" for hours one day on a trip. She was annoyed she couldn't read her book. I joked that it needed bigger pictures and large print. She punched me in the arm. I told her she could fly if she thought she could do better! ;) ;) ;)

Another time we had maybe five minutes of light chop when taking a new passenger along. Later she asked, "Is it always that bumpy?"

My wife and I replied in unison, "That wasn't bumpy."

Then had a good laugh and explained that we should have been more attentive to our new passenger.

Since then, I use the "small boat" analogy for new paxs.

"You ever been out on a small boat?" They answer in the affirmative.

"How about a choppy day?" Yep.

"You knew if you were in a bigger boat the ride would be smoother, right?" Yup.

"Did you ever feel like the smaller boat was not seaworthy or in danger?" Nope.

"Okay, big planes are what you've flown in. Big planes are like big ships, they ride through the little waves and no movement at all. Little planes can bounce and rock a bit, just like a little boat, but there's nothing to be alarmed at. It's just the mass of the craft in the air and in the water. Make sense?"

Nod.

I haven't had any pax surprised about light chop since then. If they look apprehensive I might gingerly ask about nausea history with bouncy rides. Ask me how I learned to just ask them now, sometime...

Now... If I were to bounce them off the ceiling they'd probably be ****ed just like tossing them out of the waterski boat... ;) ;) ;)

You also build up instinctual things like reaching for your seat belt and snugging it at the first signs of turbulence after you find out you can't get it tight enough to keep from bouncing the top of your headset off the ceiling with the seat all the way up. And you reach for the down handcrank too. ;)
 
Aborted my Big XC due to one. It was a bit unnerving, but I believe if you are cleared to solo, you should be ok dealing with it. A sudden gust of air put my tiny 152 into a steep turn attitude 15 minutes into the flight. I climbed a little higher, made a really wide 180 turn, and went back to my field. Figured I'd rather complete Big XC at later date, when I do not have to wrestle the damn plane all the way through it.

It can scare you, but you should be able to deal with it.
 
Tony is reading that last one thinking "Ohhh! Big thermal! Lift!!!!" and would have slowed up and banked around to find it again.

Glider pilots. ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Tony is reading that last one thinking "Ohhh! Big thermal! Lift!!!!" and would have slowed up and banked around to find it again.

Glider pilots. ;)
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One of my first XCs as a PPL - Flying from Winslow to Payson, warm windy day, very bumpy.
At some point AI shows about 10-15 degrees below the horizon, IAS around 100mph. And the plane just wants to climb.

Talk about wrong aircraft for the mission.
But as you know, I'm working on fixing that:)
 
gil_mor said:
One of my first XCs as a PPL - Flying from Winslow to Payson, warm windy day, very bumpy.
At some point AI shows about 10-15 degrees below the horizon, IAS around 100mph. And the plane just wants to climb.
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Never turn down free altitude. You were livin' right.
 
Clear Air Turbulence is not only extremely rare, during the off-chance it happens, it's usually at high altitude, or there will be lots of other tell tail indications that it's likely. As a practical matter, really rough turbulence for light plane pilots happens for one of three reasons: You fly your airplane in close proximity to a thunderstorm, you're flying near high jagged mountains during very high winds, or CAT, which happens as rarely as Amish wife swaping and usually only at altitudes occupied by turbine-powered airplanes. Moderate turbulence is an eye-opening wake up call to most GA pilots. It can happen only when it's windy enough to blow dogs off chains and or flying through big cumulous clouds. If you ever experience honest-to-goodness severe turbulence, I can assure you it will scare the dickens out of you and make you wonder whether the wings will leave the airplane.
Happened to me only a few times in a 35 year career. Once, in a Piper Aztec, appoaching Lake Tahoe from the east, and the Slide Mountain winds were over 125kts. and there were whitecaps all over Lake Tahoe the likes of which usually happen on the San Fransisco Bay on summer afternoons. Other times, despite my best efforts with the radar to remain clear of convective activity, I have found myself with the whole front of the airplane glowing blue with st. elmos fire, occaisional lightning flashes out the window and turbulence that had me wondering if my passengers would all start spitting up like jiffy-pop. Not much fun, but rare, thank goodness. So, no, clear air turbulence isn't something to worry about.
 
scottd said:
Still using the FBWinds? :(

BTW, directional or speed shear of the wind is just one component. You can have lots of speed and directional wind shear within glassy smooth conditions. But without atmospheric mixing, it's really hard to make any bumps.
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That's what comes in a standard briefing, that's what the FSS briefers will give you. I agree that there are better products out there, but someone with only a telephone and an FSS briefer on the other end is not likely to get them. So I tried to give an answer that would have some reasonable value to all situations, rather than a more complete answer that requires information that may not be available to everyone, if that makes sense.

Sure would be nice if the atmosphere wasn't such a damn transparent fluid, wouldn't it?
 
Don't worry Tracy, you've got the right solution...... fly the plane. As you fly more you will get used to the turbulence.
 
One particularly bumpy day Larry -- a 10,000+ hour type in everything from autogyros to Falcons who was preparing me for my CFI checkride -- said, "I prefer turbulence -- makes me realize I'm actually flying."

I thought that over and since adopted that approach. Still, there's a difference between "bumps" and being slammed by King Kong.

King Kong slams I don't like.

:no:
 
TMetzinger said:
Sure would be nice if the atmosphere wasn't such a damn transparent fluid, wouldn't it?
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What, you'd prefer opaque? Then everyone would need an IR! :rofl:

And Tracey, Leslie used to be afraid of turbulence during, to the point where she'd turn to the instructor and ask him to take the controls. Eventually, he just told her "you flew us into this, so you fly us out of it." She did fine, and they continued that flight. Right up until the turbulence got so bad that he hit his head on the ceiling, at which point he said "yeah, let's call it for today!" :)
 
gprellwitz said:
Right up until the turbulence got so bad that he hit his head on the ceiling, at which point he said "yeah, let's call it for today!" :)
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(See.. he thought it was turbulence, but really she just pushed the controls forward really fast when he wasn't looking so he'd hit his head and call it a day). lol.

But point taken... thanks for that scenario!
 
Tracey said:
(See.. he thought it was turbulence, but really she just pushed the controls forward really fast when he wasn't looking so he'd hit his head and call it a day). lol.

But point taken... thanks for that scenario!
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I will say that if you have heavy winds over any significant terrain (and significant can be a lot smaller than you might think) that you with get mechanical turbulence, sometimes to a pretty good altitude. That's not technically the same thing as CAT, though. But others have mentioned this too, so it's nothing new to you. We had that on a shopping trip to Dunedin, which involved traversing some relatively minor hills (less than 2000 meters), and we knew there would be some high winds. So we went out expecting to get thrown around, and weren't disappointed!
 
scottd said:
Which product are you talking about? GTG? AIRMETs or G-AIRMETs? AIRMETs and G-AIRMETs only show the potential for moderate turbulence, not moderate or greater. Anything greater than moderate would be included in a SIGMET or convective SIGMET.
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It was a month or two ago, so I might be remembering wrong. I believe I was looking at the GTG.
I'm sure I called for briefing and wasn't surprised to hear about the SIGMET.
 
denverpilot said:
Tony is reading that last one thinking "Ohhh! Big thermal! Lift!!!!" and would have slowed up and banked around to find it again.

Glider pilots. ;)
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:rofl:

That's one great thing about my LSA with, like, purd near no wing loading at all. You get some real great rocking and rolling going on.
 
scottd said:
You had mentioned that the forecast was from the surface to FL240. If that's the case it wouldn't have been GTG given that it starts at 10,000 feet...likely was an AIRMET or G-AIRMET...I've never seen a SIGMET for severe or greater turbulence from the surface to FL240.
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You are right, it wasn't surface, it was at 11,000 - the altitude we planed our flight for.
I was looking at the G-AIRMET yesterday and confused the altitude with the GTG.
I stand corrected.
 
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scottd said:
This might help.
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Scott, just wanted to say thanks, I'm really enjoying your aviation weather series as well as the airmanship series. I have the download versions. Still trying to absorb all of the weather info that you present...never knew how much I didn't know about weather:). I will have to go over these several times I'm sure. The mini quizzes at the end are really helpful.

Thanks again
 
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