Carrying propane tanks? Safe?

Ron Levy said:
The risk/return equation may be viewed somewhat differently in the Third World. Based on a lot of cooking and travel shows I watch (not to mention my own experience over there 40 years ago), I suspect that "indoors" in a Southeast Asian restaurant is not quite as contained a space as it is in a restaurant here, no less the cockpit of a light single-engine airplane.
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That's true - although "indoors" in a modern, sealed high rise apartment complex is indeed indoors. Then again structure fires are fairly uncommon as everything is built out of brick and concrete.

But I'm not arguing your point at all, it just becomes a risk/return decision on whether to carry one in the cockpit. I wouldn't be comfortable with the idea myself but it's never occurred for me to do it either, so I can't comment intelligently on how safe it might be, save for considering the thoughts in this thread.
 
Bob Noel said:
Just like legal doesn't mean safe, let's acknowledge that the reasons for the Blue Rhino warnings may not have anything to do with actual risk but perhaps some lawyers wanting to avoid liability.
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It's possible, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, and that's what you'd be doing if you flew with one of those tanks in the plane.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
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I just about choked to death on a handful of chex mix.
 
JB1842 said:
I just about choked to death on a handful of chex mix.
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Please don't feed the troll. If we ignore him maybe he will just go away and leave us alone.

I didn't know you can get propane at OSH during the show. In that case, Ron is right it doesn't make sense to carry it in.
 
Hocky said:
Please don't feed the troll. If we ignore him maybe he will just go away and leave us alone.

I didn't know you can get propane at OSH during the show. In that case, Ron is right it doesn't make sense to carry it in.
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Lighten up, Francis. Funny is funny. Anything you need at OSH can be bought at the camp stores or at the Target across the street from the North 40. The Airventure website has a lot of info on it. Study it, too.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's possible, but I wouldn't bet my life on it, and that's what you'd be doing if you flew with one of those tanks in the plane.
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Right, just like flying with any other piece of luggage.

If (if if if) I were ever to consider flying with a 20# tank of propane and saw the Blue Rhino warnings, I'd be asking why the warnings. I'm just the curious type and would want to know the specific risks. For example, is it because the valves on that particular type of tank have a significant rate of leakage? Is there a mechanical problem/defect with the tank structure itself? Is it because at least some jurisdictions don't allow that size tank in a building without permit (and why not?)?
 
I have flown out hunting in lots of Beavers and Super Cubs in Alaska.....

Propane cylinders are not a worry.


That being said, why would you need a 20# Blue Rhino tank at Osh?

Grab a couple of Coleman cylinders for $3 and you are good to go.
 
Hocky said:
I didn't know you can get propane at OSH during the show. In that case, Ron is right it doesn't make sense to carry it in.
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Learning is a change in behavior as a result of experience. Glad to see you're learning. Now go see how many things in your flying (and even in your life) there are to which you can apply risk management techniques. :wink2:
 
Bob Noel said:
Right, just like flying with any other piece of luggage.
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No, not at all like flying with any other piece of luggage. My regular luggage can't explode, and it's damned hard to cause it to catch fire, and it isn't going to start a fire, and it's not going to leave a big dent in my head if it breaks loose.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, not at all like flying with any other piece of luggage. My regular luggage can't explode, and it's damned hard to cause it to catch fire, and it isn't going to start a fire, and it's not going to leave a big dent in my head if it breaks loose.
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um, I meant that I evaluate the risks of any piece of luggage. Obviously luggage containing inflammable materials get more scrutiny than the bags containing my change of clothes. But I evaluate all my luggage. So, yes, it truly is like flying with any other piece of luggage. At least for me.
 
timwinters said:
Whoah...a blue rhino 20# tank?
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It may be a 20 pound tank, but if you do the exchange with blue rhino you only get 15 pounds of propane for a price not much higher than getting the tank filled with 20 pounds of propane elsewhere.

The other problem is that these tanks are use by meth labs to transport anhydrous ammonia - and if you are flying a "known drug route" (i.e. from anywhere to anywhere), are "evading radar" (squawking 1200) and have a propane tank in the back, well, "law enforcement" is gonna have some real fun with you.

The other big transport risk is O2. O2 cylinders can be pressurized up to 2000 psi - enough to propel them through a cinder block wall if they are ruptured https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84 Even a small cylinder is not safe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw_fhNAIQc . Plus, you have the incredible hazard of the oxygen itself - O2 is a very powerful accelerant. In the event of any kind of fire the oxygen will turn an aluminum airplane into slag in no time at all - Oxygen has even brought down a DC-9!!! Any time it is necessary to transport an O2 cylinder the pilot must make sure that has been emptied and refilled with an inert gas at no more than 30 psi as well as being properly secured to minimize the risk.

Seriously, there are issues with O2 regulator fires
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9823.html
http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/S...s/TipsandArticlesonDeviceSafety/ucm070173.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6tGX5nqKGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaBghGKAOBo
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It may be a 20 pound tank, but if you do the exchange with blue rhino you only get 15 pounds of propane for a price not much higher than getting the tank filled with 20 pounds of propane elsewhere.

The other problem is that these tanks are use by meth labs to transport anhydrous ammonia - and if you are flying a "known drug route" (i.e. from anywhere to anywhere), are "evading radar" (squawking 1200) and have a propane tank in the back, well, "law enforcement" is gonna have some real fun with you.

The other big transport risk is O2. O2 cylinders can be pressurized up to 2000 psi - enough to propel them through a cinder block wall if they are ruptured https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejEJGNLTo84 Even a small cylinder is not safe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lw_fhNAIQc . Plus, you have the incredible hazard of the oxygen itself - O2 is a very powerful accelerant. In the event of any kind of fire the oxygen will turn an aluminum airplane into slag in no time at all - Oxygen has even brought down a DC-9!!! Any time it is necessary to transport an O2 cylinder the pilot must make sure that has been emptied and refilled with an inert gas at no more than 30 psi as well as being properly secured to minimize the risk.

Seriously, there are issues with O2 regulator fires
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9823.html
http://www.fda.gov/MedicalDevices/S...s/TipsandArticlesonDeviceSafety/ucm070173.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6tGX5nqKGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaBghGKAOBo
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I assume you're referring to scuba tanks but wouldn't the same risk apply to flight O2 systems? Other than the fill pressure being lower.
 
Bob Noel said:
um, I meant that I evaluate the risks of any piece of luggage. Obviously luggage containing inflammable materials get more scrutiny than the bags containing my change of clothes. But I evaluate all my luggage. So, yes, it truly is like flying with any other piece of luggage. At least for me.
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If you mean the risk assessment process is the same, I'll buy that. However, your posts could easily be read as saying the risk is the same, and that I would not buy -- nor, I hope, is that what you were intending to sell.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I assume you're referring to scuba tanks but wouldn't the same risk apply to flight O2 systems? Other than the fill pressure being lower.
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O2 would have a lot more risk than air.

O2 has caused regulators to spontaneously explode just because the cylinder is turned on. Air won't do that.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
O2 would have a lot more risk than air.

O2 has caused regulators to spontaneously explode just because the cylinder is turned on. Air won't do that.
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But flight O2 systems (filled with O2) are regularly carried in aircraft. Is your point that they are risky?
 
Ron Levy said:
If you mean the risk assessment process is the same, I'll buy that. However, your posts could easily be read as saying the risk is the same, and that I would not buy -- nor, I hope, is that what you were intending to sell.
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I thought "um, I meant that I evaluate the risks of any piece of luggage" clarified it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
But flight O2 systems (filled with O2) are regularly carried in aircraft. Is your point that they are risky?
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I started out just being a smart ass. Obviously (I would have hoped) you wouldn't put an inert gas in your O2 tanks...

But, the fact is that there is a (small) risk associated with carrying and using in flight O2 systems. You can read the recommendations from NIOSH that I linked along with actual accident reports. I suspect that many pilots are unaware of this.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I started out just being a smart ass. Obviously (I would have hoped) you wouldn't put an inert gas in your O2 tanks...

But, the fact is that there is a (small) risk associated with carrying and using in flight O2 systems. You can read the recommendations from NIOSH that I linked along with actual accident reports. I suspect that many pilots are unaware of this.
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Ok gotcha. Makes sense.
 
Is it the mass of the internet which converts the molehill into a mountain?
 
Ron Levy said:
If you mean the risk assessment process is the same, I'll buy that. However, your posts could easily be read as saying the risk is the same, and that I would not buy -- nor, I hope, is that what you were intending to sell.
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The risk may not be the same, but the reality is that the risk associated with carrying a properly equipped and secured propane tank in the aircraft is likely very, very low. So low, in fact, that I'm amazed that you found the time to invest in arguing against it for three pages worth of replies. The entire airplane is a fire hazard in one form or another, in addition to all of the other risks associated with operating an aircraft. Carrying a propane tank is one which should be easily manageable.

With that being said, I see no reason to take on any additional risk management unless there isn't a better option. It sounds as though in this case, there is a better option. That's probably all that needs to be said.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
The risk may not be the same, but the reality is that the risk associated with carrying a properly equipped and secured propane tank in the aircraft is likely very, very low. So low, in fact, that I'm amazed that you found the time to invest in arguing against it for three pages worth of replies. The entire airplane is a fire hazard in one form or another, in addition to all of the other risks associated with operating an aircraft. Carrying a propane tank is one which should be easily manageable.

With that being said, I see no reason to take on any additional risk management unless there isn't a better option. It sounds as though in this case, there is a better option. That's probably all that needs to be said.


JKG
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Yes once I was told propane is available on the field it kind of ended that whole discussion for me.

And besides I need to conserve how much stuff I'm taking since I definitely don't want to be more than 200 lbs over gross when I take off.
 
I had the stove that used gasoline. Came with an empty tank. Filled it from the sump. A little lead in your cooking fuel every so often isn't THAT catastrophic is it?
 
Hocky said:
Yes once I was told propane is available on the field it kind of ended that whole discussion for me.

And besides I need to conserve how much stuff I'm taking since I definitely don't want to be more than 200 lbs over gross when I take off.
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There has in the past been a post office on field inside Airventure. Back then, I mailed my tents, chairs, stove and lantern. I carried clothes, cord, tarp and stakes in the plane. I sent three big boxes. Check with usps for limits on size and weight per box. I stored the flat boxes inside the plane. On return I reused the boxes and reshipped everything back.
 
The EAA website says only propane or white gas is allowed in the plane camping areas so I hadn't thought of that. Using a stove that uses avgas sounds like a great idea especially if you borrow some from your neighbor's plane :rofl:
 
Hocky said:
The EAA website says only propane or white gas is allowed in the plane camping areas so I hadn't thought of that. Using a stove that uses avgas sounds like a great idea especially if you borrow some from your neighbor's plane :rofl:
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Plus a grill that uses avgas leaves a nice, gray tinge to the meat.
 
Maybe we can have the Chief Counsel and Administrator over for burgers!
 
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