Car talk -- convertibles

[Ken Ibold]

The Beemer is getting a little long in the tooth and it's time to look around for a new car.

Requirements: 4 seats, <$50K, long-term ownership potential (8+ years)
Nice to have: Retract hard top

I am eliminating the 2 Chrysler/Dodge products (PT and Sebring) out of hand as owning one vehicle from that company was one too many.

Frontrunner has been the Beemer, but the latest incarnation of the 3 series isn't doing it for me. We borrowed a sedan from the dealer for a couple of days and, well, we're not too excited about the way it drives.

Anyone driven the VW Eos? What about the Audi A-4? Other candidates? I've heard not-so-good things about how Saabs and Volvos hold up in the Florida heat.

 

[mikea]

How about a used Mercedes SL?

 

[KennyFlys]

Nice to have: Retract hard top

Do you have an endorsement?

 

[Henning]

The Beemer is getting a little long in the tooth and it's time to look around for a new car.

Requirements: 4 seats, <$50K, long-term ownership potential (8+ years)
Nice to have: Retract hard top

I am eliminating the 2 Chrysler/Dodge products (PT and Sebring) out of hand as owning one vehicle from that company was one too many.

Frontrunner has been the Beemer, but the latest incarnation of the 3 series isn't doing it for me. We borrowed a sedan from the dealer for a couple of days and, well, we're not too excited about the way it drives.

Anyone driven the VW Eos? What about the Audi A-4? Other candidates? I've heard not-so-good things about how Saabs and Volvos hold up in the Florida heat.

Drove an Audi A4 convertible the other day, nice car. I had my dad buy an A6 Quattro a few years back, and it has been a good car, the A4 is a good bit smaller though. Now if small doesn't bother you and you want to get maximum economy while maintaining cool, I'd seriously look at the Cooper Mini S Convertible with the TDI (that actually boogies on), 50mpg is a good thing these days. Volkswagon again makes a good vehicle and are available with a TDI engine. I had an older 80s vintage SAAB in Australia, and the Brisbane climate is similar to here, it was alright, but the economy factor was lacking. Volvos, I've owned several, and outside of my 65 P1800, I was unimpressed, worst economy of any vehicle I've owned was a 244. I could get better mileage with my 800+hp Camaro.

 

[Ken Ibold]

Drove an Audi A4 convertible the other day, nice car. I had my dad buy an A6 Quattro a few years back, and it has been a good car, the A4 is a good bit smaller though. Now if small doesn't bother you and you want to get maximum economy while maintaining cool, I'd seriously look at the Cooper Mini S Convertible with the TDI (that actually boogies on), 50mpg is a good thing these days. Volkswagon again makes a good vehicle and are available with a TDI engine. I had an older 80s vintage SAAB in Australia, and the Brisbane climate is similar to here, it was alright, but the economy factor was lacking. Volvos, I've owned several, and outside of my 65 P1800, I was unimpressed, worst economy of any vehicle I've owned was a 244. I could get better mileage with my 800+hp Camaro.

This will mainly be my wife's car, and the Mini is a little too much like a go-kart for her taste.

 

[Henning]

This will mainly be my wife's car, and the Mini is a little too much like a go-kart for her taste.

Then I would go with the A-4, and I believe it's available TDI as well and gets nearly if not 50mpg with a manual and still over 40 with an automatic. (Audi is the leader in TDI developement winning LeMans and many others, watching it go was impressive)

 

[woodstock]

You really don't care for the new 3 series driveability? Why? I'd have suggested that actually.

It's too bad MB only makes the hard top convertible in a roadster currently.

 

[Ken Ibold]

You really don't care for the new 3 series driveability? Why? I'd have suggested that actually.

It's too bad MB only makes the hard top convertible in a roadster currently.

The BMW has been the frontrunner. As I think I told you offline we were even thinking of taking delivery in Germany. But they've been unavailable to test drive. As it happens, right now we have a loaner that's the 3 series station wagon ... er, TOURING car. It's got the standard 16 inch wheels and premium package. The run-flat tires give the ride a sort of choppy feel, and the power steering boost at low speed is, IMO, a little too weak. Get above 30 or so and the steering's better. But on anything other than smooth pavement the tires are just too hard. So in order to fix that it's new wheels and tires all around, plus you'd have to buy a spare and jack, as it comes with neither. And that would probably raise holy hell with the tire pressure monitoring system.

Now, I'm a Porsche kinda guy and I like the sports car ride. I think this car has gone too far in that direction for a sports sedan/coupe. If you drive it aggressively it rewards you with a Porsche 944-style ride (absent the sudden breakaway in a turn). But if you are driving it normally, say the routine commute home on beat up roads, it's too punishing for too little reward.

 

[Shipoke]

Ken I'd go with the Audi, My buddy Tim has both the A4 and a not sure if its a S or A 6 and he deals in them at his shop, if you'ld like his opinion you can call him at 717 6970952 ask for Tim . he'd be happy to tell you about them .
Dave G

 

[gibbons]

I'd seriously consider a Cooper as my next car, but not the drop top - just a matter of taste. Great cars and I love the go-kart look myself.

If you're considering a 3 series, I'd suggest you drive the M3 before you buy the off-the-rack version.

Did you mention Porsche??? What a coincidence!!! I've got one for sale, but you'd have to do a convertible conversion on it. $100 says it will outrun any production car you've ever driven. Only driven to church on Sunday.

 

[Diana]

I used to have a little convertible that I named “Windy”. Drove it around on my home health visits. One autumn day I parked it under a tree at a patient’s house, and it was full of leaves when I came out. Most of the leaves blew out when I drove away; my patient told me later that she enjoyed the show.

We just loved our little cheap-o convertible till the day we got passed by a pig truck on Highway 71. We were all spiffed up to go to a family gathering. We felt unclean after the truck passed us.

 

[Diana]

Only driven to church on Sunday.

Surely you just found that video clip on the internet?

 

[woodstock]

The BMW has been the frontrunner. As I think I told you offline we were even thinking of taking delivery in Germany. But they've been unavailable to test drive. As it happens, right now we have a loaner that's the 3 series station wagon ... er, TOURING car. It's got the standard 16 inch wheels and premium package. The run-flat tires give the ride a sort of choppy feel, and the power steering boost at low speed is, IMO, a little too weak. Get above 30 or so and the steering's better. But on anything other than smooth pavement the tires are just too hard. So in order to fix that it's new wheels and tires all around, plus you'd have to buy a spare and jack, as it comes with neither. And that would probably raise holy hell with the tire pressure monitoring system.

Now, I'm a Porsche kinda guy and I like the sports car ride. I think this car has gone too far in that direction for a sports sedan/coupe. If you drive it aggressively it rewards you with a Porsche 944-style ride (absent the sudden breakaway in a turn). But if you are driving it normally, say the routine commute home on beat up roads, it's too punishing for too little reward.

Gotcha. Did it have the sports package or not? (sounds like it did?) I'm not sure I'm keen on the run flats either, but we will see.

The sedan I would think would be much different from the station wagon. I test drove it and LOVED it. I'm going the ED route in June - I got the time approved from my boss. WOOT!

 

[SCCutler]

Ken, the Eos looks like a nice package, but reviews have been tepid. While I would not let that, of itself, run me away, my guess is that someone who is used to driving a BMW might find the Eos a bit zoftig for their taste.

I agree with the Audi - they're pretty cool, and drive well. I don't know whether the TDi is available in the US, though- if so, what a great combo.

Volvo V70's a nice ride, but lots of cowl flex when I drove one. Still liked it, but the nearest dealer was too far away, so no go.

Any objection to the Benz, CLK?

What she really needs is this- I have one (but it's not for sale!).

http://www.automedia.com/Modern-Classic:-1976-Cadillac-Eldorado-Convertible/res20030401mc/1

OK, so it only gets 9 mpg (7.5 with the ethanol-tainted crap they're foisting on us now), but what style!

Edit: Here's one that looks so much like mine, they could be twins: http://ww2.collectorcartrader.com/details.php?adId=89204195

A perfect car for a Florida lawyer! And it's already in Florida!

 

[Skip Miller]

This will mainly be my wife's car, and the Mini is a little too much like a go-kart for her taste.

See if Henning will part with his 800 hp. Camaro.

-Skip

 

[Bill]

How about a used Mercedes SL?

4 seats an SL is not

 

[Bill]

Anyone driven the VW Eos? What about the Audi A-4? Other candidates?

I'll never drive another VW/Audi for the same reasons you won't drive another Chrysler. Utter crap.

Good used Mercedes CLK? My Dad has a CLK 430, nice car. Toyota Solara convert? May be too lowbrow for her, though.

 

[SCCutler]

Wow, Bill, YMMV, but I drove one Audi to 165,000 miles, and second one was a stalwart friend until totaled at 93,000 miles. My wife now drives a Jetta with 5 years and 46,000 miles, no hint of trouble of any kind so far (except, it's kind of fast and she gets a lot of tickets in it). It may break tomorrow, but in the meantime, has been good.

Irony is, we got the Jetta to replace a BMW which was painfully costly to just keep on the road.

My experience, though, is that a lot has to do with whether you have a truly competent dealer for service.

 

[gismo]

The Beemer is getting a little long in the tooth and it's time to look around for a new car.

Requirements: 4 seats, <$50K, long-term ownership potential (8+ years)
Nice to have: Retract hard top

I am eliminating the 2 Chrysler/Dodge products (PT and Sebring) out of hand as owning one vehicle from that company was one too many.

Frontrunner has been the Beemer, but the latest incarnation of the 3 series isn't doing it for me. We borrowed a sedan from the dealer for a couple of days and, well, we're not too excited about the way it drives.

Anyone driven the VW Eos? What about the Audi A-4? Other candidates? I've heard not-so-good things about how Saabs and Volvos hold up in the Florida heat.

If you are willing to put up with a slightly harsher ride, the Audi S4 provides a lot more entertainment than the A4 (I'm on my third S4 so you can tell which is more important to me).

 

[Dean]

Do the 4 seats need to be adult size? If not, I would do the Ford Shelby GT500 Convertible. Once you drive it your face goes like this.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Volvo V70's a nice ride, but lots of cowl flex when I drove one. Still liked it, but the nearest dealer was too far away, so no go.

I love mine, tho I have a non-convertible S60 T5. I looked at the C70 at OSH, very cool but the back seats are a tad on the short side (looked plenty wide though), as in not a ton of legroom.

 

[sba55]

If you are willing to put up with a slightly harsher ride, the Audi S4 provides a lot more entertainment than the A4 (I'm on my third S4 so you can tell which is more important to me).

That's the winner, IMO. Exactly what I was going to suggest. The S4 (the RS4 even more so, but a bit over budget) is a great car. Decent styling, decently fast, and it handles really well. You've got to give it a try. There's no Diesel version, but it sounds like you're going for something that's a bit sporty, so Diesel is out anyway.

As for Saab - I'll never understand why people buy those. Got to be one of the most overhyped boring collections of GM parts out there.

-Felix

 

[Henning]

See if Henning will part with his 800 hp. Camaro.

-Skip

I parted with it years ago, though I could build one to order in short order if someone would want one....

 

[Henning]

That's the winner, IMO. Exactly what I was going to suggest. The S4 (the RS4 even more so, but a bit over budget) is a great car. Decent styling, decently fast, and it handles really well. You've got to give it a try. There's no Diesel version, but it sounds like you're going for something that's a bit sporty, so Diesel is out anyway.

As for Saab - I'll never understand why people buy those. Got to be one of the most overhyped boring collections of GM parts out there.

-Felix

It's a shame Audi hasn't brought their diesels to market here yet. As to sporty, these are not you dad's Oldsmobile diesels, these things rock. They consistently win races against Mercedes, Ferrari, Porsche... and they do it by just shear brute accelleration out of the corners, I watched the last LeMans, and I was duly imprssed by the way it just walked away from everybody out of the corners.

 

[SCCutler]

Ditto on the diesel observation, Henning. Makes no sense at all that we cannot buy diesel cars. It's one thing to consider why the American manufacturers haven't got 'em here (not excusing them, but at least modestly understandable, but the Euro nameplates which all have well-engineered and proven diesel drivetrains and simply don't offer them here.... why?

 

[Bill]

Wow, Bill, YMMV, but I drove one Audi to 165,000 miles, and second one was a stalwart friend until totaled at 93,000 miles. My wife now drives a Jetta with 5 years and 46,000 miles, no hint of trouble of any kind so far

Yes, YMMV.

I bought a new VW Passat GLX VR-6 5 speed in 1993, wonderful driving car, I really liked the experience. But, it had a 2 year/24,000 warranty, and VW had that one nailed down.

26 months, the alternator went, have to take the front clip nearly off the car to get at it on the VR-6, that one was $500

A month after that, the sunroof broke, open of course. Broken track, had to replace the whole unit, $800

The month after that, the rear power windows stuck down, $250 for a new window control computer.

The month after that, the rear trunk lock broke, couldn't open the trunk, that one was a cheapie, only $125

The month after that, the plastic end tank blew off the radiator in rush hour traffic, $500.

As soon as it had the new radiator, PUNT, traded it on a new 1996 Grand Cherokee V-8, fun in a different way. That one ran 80,000 zero trouble miles until a red light runner totalled it.

Maybe VW/Audi is better now, a diesel Jetta would be a good car, but I'm just not willing to take the chance. Maybe if the dealer threw in long term warranty for free, but otherwise, nah.

 

[Anthony]

I'm not a big VW fan anymore either. I think their new line up sucks. The EOS is way overpriced, and their cars are ugly in general. With decision making like the failed Phaeton and their current line up, I don't think they're destined for greatness anytime soon. Audi may be a different story, but I've never had one.

 

[RMCN172RG]

$100 says it will outrun any production car you've ever driven. Only driven to church on Sunday.

I'd be willing to take a chance at that. The 64 vette with the 360 HP 327, Muncie four speed in the garage will give you a run in the short haul and I'll take the 79 MG midget over a longer stretch if I pick the turf.

Now if you want to add in the production cars I've owned or driven but not owned there were a few more HOT contenders in that bunch.

 

[RMCN172RG]

The vette and MG are both convertibles for relevance to the thread. But not for sale, sorry.

 

[Anthony]

I'll take the 79 MG midget over a longer stretch if I pick the turf.

Just make sure its not a rainy day.




"Lucas....Prince of Darkness"



Former 1961 MGA MKII Fixed Head Coupe and 1968 MGB owner

 

[Pilawt]

Toyota Solara convert? May be too lowbrow for her, though.

Solara is a nice car; my wife has driven one for eight years. It's more upscale that one might assume. One of the magazines called it "the Toyota that thinks it's a Lexus." 2008 is the last year for the Solara, unfortunately.

 

[gibbons]

I'd be willing to take a chance at that. The 64 vette with the 360 HP 327, Muncie four speed in the garage will give you a run in the short haul and I'll take the 79 MG midget over a longer stretch if I pick the turf.

The Vette would be a fun straight line car. I'll still take the 600 HP all-wheel drive Porsche in any race longer than about 400 feet. As for the MG, I've just got to ask what turf would you pick? Sounds like a sucker bet to me, but I can't figure any situation where an MG could outrun a Ruf Porsche, especially in a long stretch. Come on, give it up... what's the angle?

 

[sba55]

It's a shame Audi hasn't brought their diesels to market here yet. As to sporty, these are not you dad's Oldsmobile diesels, these things rock. They consistently win races against Mercedes, Ferrari, Porsche... and they do it by just shear brute accelleration out of the corners, I watched the last LeMans, and I was duly imprssed by the way it just walked away from everybody out of the corners.

I agree, it'd be great if we had some decent Diesel cars here for everyday driving. I live in a Toyota Hybrid crazy state. Everybody here things that the Prius is the best thing ever. They never believe me when I tell them that I can buy a VW Lupo that gets almost 80 mpg for half the price of a Prius.

As for sporty - they've really improved in the last 3-4 years. Before that, I don't think production Diesel cars accelerated quite as well and had the same throttle response as gasoline cars. It has gotten better, though.

-Felix

 

[RMCN172RG]

The Vette would be a fun straight line car. I'll still take the 600 HP all-wheel drive Porsche in any race longer than about 400 feet. As for the MG, I've just got to ask what turf would you pick? Sounds like a sucker bet to me, but I can't figure any situation where an MG could outrun a Ruf Porsche, especially in a long stretch. Come on, give it up... what's the angle?

A nice narrow twisting road along the side of a cliff.

 

[gismo]

Ditto on the diesel observation, Henning. Makes no sense at all that we cannot buy diesel cars. It's one thing to consider why the American manufacturers haven't got 'em here (not excusing them, but at least modestly understandable, but the Euro nameplates which all have well-engineered and proven diesel drivetrains and simply don't offer them here.... why?

Because they don't sell here. AFaIK, in Europe diesel fuel prices are substantially less than gasoline (fewer taxes etc) plus fuel in general is way more expensive so there's much more incentive to go with something as economical as a diesel. In the US diesel usually sells for more than gasoline and for most American drivers the economics of diesels wouldn't make sense even if the fuel prices were the same. On top of that, I think we Americans have a flawed perception of diesels based on experiences with the crap that GM offered back in the 70's which were noisy, hard to start, smelly, expensive, and not terribly long lived.

 

[Henning]

Because they don't sell here. AFaIK, in Europe diesel fuel prices are substantially less than gasoline (fewer taxes etc) plus fuel in general is way more expensive so there's much more incentive to go with something as economical as a diesel. In the US diesel usually sells for more than gasoline and for most American drivers the economics of diesels wouldn't make sense even if the fuel prices were the same. On top of that, I think we Americans have a flawed perception of diesels based on experiences with the crap that GM offered back in the 70's which were noisy, hard to start, smelly, expensive, and not terribly long lived.

The price of diesel is artificially inflated, and that is a recent thing. The economics, even with the slightly higher than regular unleaded (less than premium most places, about same as mid grade) still weigh in favor of the Diesel. My Dodge 2500 with the Cummins cruised light at 21-23mpg and never got less than 12 mpg towing a 50'x12' trailer loaded with 44,000 lbs of hay at 65mph. No gasoline powered truck could come close to that economy loaded or empty. Heck, I got better fuel milage than a Rav 4. Sample 2, I had 2 old Chevy Luv (Isuzu) pickups, diesel got 50mpg, it's direct gasoline counterpart got 23mpg. Which one you think I kept? You are right, it's GMs fault that here in America people don't go for diesel cars. That POS 350 Olds that they did the morphadite conversion on was horrid. I made a good bit of money in the late 70's and early 80s off of those. A super nice Delta 88 or DeVille would roll through the auction with one, and nobody would bid, we'd buy them for $500, bring em back to the lot, go to the junkyard and pull a Olds 350 Rocket or 403 out of an old Cutlass or wrecked Trans Am, toss it in, change out a wire harness, a few little other things, change some emblems, total cost about $450 and take it back to the auction a week later and sell it for $3000.

Anothe good diesel/gas heads up from back in the day was the Chevette. The diesel (Isuzu engine again) would out run the gas one in a quarter mile (we used to race everything).

 

[Bill]

but the Euro nameplates which all have well-engineered and proven diesel drivetrains and simply don't offer them here.... why?

Sherry right now is leasing an E320 CDI turbo-D, and that car is unreal. Refined, quiet, runs 0-60 in 6.6, and gets 27 city 34 highway. Not bad for a built like a tank 3900lb car.

Too bad I can't afford to buy one.

 

[SCCutler]

The price of diesel is artificially inflated, and that is a recent thing. The economics, even with the slightly higher than regular unleaded (less than premium most places, about same as mid grade) still weigh in favor of the Diesel. My Dodge 2500 with the Cummins cruised light at 21-23mpg and never got less than 12 mpg towing a 50'x12' trailer loaded with 44,000 lbs of hay at 65mph. No gasoline powered truck could come close to that economy loaded or empty. Heck, I got better fuel milage than a Rav 4. Sample 2, I had 2 old Chevy Luv (Isuzu) pickups, diesel got 50mpg, it's direct gasoline counterpart got 23mpg. Which one you think I kept?

You just can't overcome stupid, Henning. Diesel still holds its own against gasoline, even where there is a significant price difference, because diesel fuel simply holds more energy per gallon. And, that's before you get to the added advantage created by the tainting of our gasoline with LEC (Low-Energy Contaminate, aka ethanol).

You are right, it's GMs fault that here in America people don't go for diesel cars. That POS 350 Olds that they did the morphadite conversion on was horrid. I made a good bit of money in the late 70's and early 80s off of those. A super nice Delta 88 or DeVille would roll through the auction with one, and nobody would bid, we'd buy them for $500, bring em back to the lot, go to the junkyard and pull a Olds 350 Rocket or 403 out of an old Cutlass or wrecked Trans Am, toss it in, change out a wire harness, a few little other things, change some emblems, total cost about $450 and take it back to the auction a week later and sell it for $3000.

I was good friends with a Service Director at a prominent Caddy dealer group back in those days, almost went to work for 'em. When I was touring the facility, out behind I saw a stack of oily pallets, each with a crated GM auto diesel engine; I asked him if they were all warranty exchanges, and he told that, essentially, their policy was that if a diesel engine in one of their customers' cars failed at anything less than 100k miles, they replaced it, no questions asked. He told me that GM ate it, but that they would have done it on their nickel had Detroit said, "no." "Repeat customers," he told me, "are our lifeblood, and we are no accustomed to losing them over an engineering mistake." Do I need to tell you, their business thrives today?

Anothe good diesel/gas heads up from back in the day was the Chevette. The diesel (Isuzu engine again) would out run the gas one in a quarter mile (we used to race everything).

That was not a very high standard, was it? Still, I remember racing a frined up in Long Island, in the 70s; me, in my Renault 10, him, in his MB 240D. I won, but not by much!

 

[gismo]

The price of diesel is artificially inflated, and that is a recent thing. The economics, even with the slightly higher than regular unleaded (less than premium most places, about same as mid grade) still weigh in favor of the Diesel. My Dodge 2500 with the Cummins cruised light at 21-23mpg and never got less than 12 mpg towing a 50'x12' trailer loaded with 44,000 lbs of hay at 65mph. No gasoline powered truck could come close to that economy loaded or empty. Heck, I got better fuel milage than a Rav 4. Sample 2, I had 2 old Chevy Luv (Isuzu) pickups, diesel got 50mpg, it's direct gasoline counterpart got 23mpg. Which one you think I kept?

I agree that in a fair fight, a diesel will pretty much always win the cost/mile contest but for many folks in this country they need significant incentive to try a diesel and what I was really trying to say is that in Europe there's both more incentive and less resistance.

You are right, it's GMs fault that here in America people don't go for diesel cars. That POS 350 Olds that they did the morphadite conversion on was horrid. I made a good bit of money in the late 70's and early 80s off of those. A super nice Delta 88 or DeVille would roll through the auction with one, and nobody would bid, we'd buy them for $500, bring em back to the lot, go to the junkyard and pull a Olds 350 Rocket or 403 out of an old Cutlass or wrecked Trans Am, toss it in, change out a wire harness, a few little other things, change some emblems, total cost about $450 and take it back to the auction a week later and sell it for $3000.

They weren't the only dealer doing that, my dad bought one of those diesel Caddys and IIRC the engine was replaced twice before he got rid of it at around 80,000 miles. Can you believe that part of GM's sales pitch on the diesel was the "proven ruggedness and longevity" of the diesels? What a joke.

Anothe good diesel/gas heads up from back in the day was the Chevette. The diesel (Isuzu engine again) would out run the gas one in a quarter mile (we used to race everything).

Heck, I can remember beating a gas powered Chevette for at least 100 ft off the line on a bicycle. Maybe I would have lost to the diesel version?

 

[Henning]

Heck, I can remember beating a gas powered Chevette for at least 100 ft off the line on a bicycle. Maybe I would have lost to the diesel version?

The diesel Chevette would burn rubber off the line, scratch second gear, and if you punished that poor little Saginaw tranny, you could get a chirp from third...