CAP Observer - Logging SIC time

Sundancer said:
Actually, I believe you are correct, at least practically speaking - it was (probably still is) routine for CAP pilots to have another CAP pilot act as a safety pilot - practicing approaches under the hood when VFR, for example. What goes into CAP's on-line system isn't really relevant - it isn't an authoritative source for FAA currency or flight time logging rules. I would be the PIC as far as CAP's system went, but I would also be under the hood and my safety pilot buddy was logging PIC time when I was. It actually never came up as an issue in my 14 years with CAP. It was FAA "legal", and not something CAP could police anyway.
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There is no prohibition in CAPR 60-1 from using any certificated private pilot (or higher) with a CAPID and uniform as a safety pilot. They just have to be legal passengers in CAP aircraft. And they aren't allowed to handle controls below 1000 AGL (which really isn't a problem for a safety pilot). There is no need for endorsements; just a certificate in category and class, plus at least a 3rd class medical (for now).

But they can't be PIC without a current Form 5 and appropriate endorsements.

I've used new CAP members as safety pilots multiple times. It's actually a nice way to introduce them to CAP procedures. They usually can't log it.
 
MAKG1 said:
There is no prohibition in CAPR 60-1 from using any certificated private pilot (or higher) with a CAPID and uniform as a safety pilot. They just have to be legal passengers in CAP aircraft. And they aren't allowed to handle controls below 1000 AGL (which really isn't a problem for a safety pilot). There is no need for endorsements; just a certificate in category and class, plus at least a 3rd class medical (for now).

But they can't be PIC without a current Form 5 and appropriate endorsements.

I've used new CAP members as safety pilots multiple times. It's actually a nice way to introduce them to CAP procedures. They usually can't log it.
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Around here the Wing would get all ****y if you did that without signing them up for MS task first and "training" on the flight.

Not that that would be difficult to do, just they'd be ****y if a flight "wasted a training opportunity".
 
denverpilot said:
Around here the Wing would get all ****y if you did that without signing them up for MS task first and "training" on the flight.

Not that that would be difficult to do, just they'd be ****y if a flight "wasted a training opportunity".
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COWG doesn't have C missions?

It sucks to "scan" when the pilot s practicing approaches or landings.
 
MAKG1 said:
There is no prohibition in CAPR 60-1 from using any certificated private pilot (or higher) with a CAPID and uniform as a safety pilot. They just have to be legal passengers in CAP aircraft. And they aren't allowed to handle controls below 1000 AGL (which really isn't a problem for a safety pilot). There is no need for endorsements; just a certificate in category and class, plus at least a 3rd class medical (for now).

But they can't be PIC without a current Form 5 and appropriate endorsements.

I've used new CAP members as safety pilots multiple times. It's actually a nice way to introduce them to CAP procedures. They usually can't log it.
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I think you are incorrect on logging PIC time; as I understand the Fed regs, safety pilots can log the time as PIC. CAP doesn't enter into it. If I'm under the hood, the pilot sitting next to me, acting as safety pilot, may log the time as PIC. CAP may have an issue with it, but that's an internal CAP thing.
 
Sundancer said:
I think you are incorrect on logging PIC time; as I understand the Fed regs, safety pilots can log the time as PIC. CAP doesn't enter into it. If I'm under the hood, the pilot sitting next to me, acting as safety pilot, may log the time as PIC. CAP may have an issue with it, but that's an internal CAP thing.
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Read 61.57, and tell us what you have to do to log PIC as a safety pilot.
 
MAKG1 said:
Read 61.57, and tell us what you have to do to log PIC as a safety pilot.
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I haven't read it in ages - But I don't recall anything in there requiring a CAP Form 5 checkride before logging PIC as a safety pilot. . .
 
Hacker said:
What possible value, and for whom, would Cessna 172 SIC time have?
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Anything that asks for "flight time" without being more specific. A few certificates, ratings and qualifications, some insurance applications. For those fairly low time, it might make a difference for certain things.

It's the same two sides as the old argument about logging all the PIC time one is entitled to.
 
Sundancer said:
I haven't read it in ages - But I don't recall anything in there requiring a CAP Form 5 checkride before logging PIC as a safety pilot. . .
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Well, you should read it.

It requires you to ACT as PIC, or be the sole manipulator of the controls (a rather odd role for a safety pilot). There are all kinds of FAA and non-FAA rules that restrict acting as PIC, including a Form 5, currency rules, and (usually) a high performance endorsement for CAP aircraft.
 
I'll try one more time, then drop it: I'm under the hood. You, a FAA private pilot, are in the right seat, and have agreed to act as my safety pilot. While I'm under the hood, you may log that time as PIC. There aren't any "non-FAA" rules that apply, and your status in CAP is irrelevant; if you meet the FAA requirements, you can log the time.

It can be in a CAP airplane; whether you are a CAP pilot or not isn't relevant; it doesn't even matter if you are a member of CAP. And while doing so would break CAP rules, it doesn't break any FAA rules for PIC logging time, and you could most certainly apply those hours toward any PIC time required for another rating.

I was in a flying club with IFR currency requirements tighter than the FAA's; while I might break the clubs's rules, as long as I met the FAA currency requirments, I could file and fly legally. The club might kick me out - the FAA wouldn't care.

I understand you'd like the CAP rules respected, and would prefer they applied in the manner you describe. I could even see the FAA going along with it, maybe, in a perfect world, and modifying the regs, if they were interested. But that's just not the case.
 
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Maybe you should log "CAP Time". Its your logbook. It wont count for anything. But its not illegal.
 
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Sundancer said:
I'll try one more time, then drop it: I'm under the hood. You, a FAA private pilot, are in the right seat, and have agreed to act as my safety pilot. While I'm under the hood, you may log that time as PIC. There aren't any "non-FAA" rules that apply, and your status in CAP is irrelevant; if you meet the FAA requirements, you can log the time.

It can be in a CAP airplane; whether you are a CAP pilot or not isn't relevant; it doesn't even matter if you are a member of CAP. And while doing so would break CAP rules, it doesn't break any FAA rules for PIC logging time, and you could most certainly apply those hours toward any PIC time required for another rating.

I was in a flying club with IFR currency requirements tighter than the FAA's; while I might break the clubs's rules, as long as I met the FAA currency requirments, I could file and fly legally. The club might kick me out - the FAA wouldn't care.

I understand you'd like the CAP rules respected, and would prefer they applied in the manner you describe. I could even see the FAA going along with it, maybe, in a perfect world, and modifying the regs, if they were interested. But that's just not the case.
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The one thing I'm uncertain about in that line of reasoning is that one of the necessary elements in the FAR 1.1 definition of pilot-in-command is this subparagraph:

"(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and..."​

I think the key question is, who has the authority to make that designation, the operator, or the pilots? For airliners, it's clear that only the operator, i.e. the airline, has that authority. I think a case could be made for applying the same principle to a CAP flight, for which CAP is the operator. So I can see how CAP rules about who may act as PIC on a CAP flight might be judged to be relevant if it ever came to an enforcement proceeding or court case.
 
Palmpilot said:
The one thing I'm uncertain about in that line of reasoning is that one of the necessary elements in the FAR 1.1 definition of pilot-in-command is this subparagraph:

"(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and..."​

I think the key question is, who has the authority to make that designation, the operator, or the pilots? For airliners, it's clear that only the operator, i.e. the airline, has that authority. I think a case could be made for applying the same principle to a CAP flight, for which CAP is the operator. So I can see how CAP rules about who may act as PIC on a CAP flight might be judged to be relevant if it ever came to an enforcement proceeding or court case.
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Interesting take - I believe, but I'm not sure, that when it's come up (FAA action regarding CAP pilots) the Feds weren't interested in the CAP rules - CAP operates as Civil Aircraft, vice Public, so the run-of-the-mill GA regs apply, with a couple exceptions they have (I assume they still have); straight part 91.

More to the point, it's clear when a CAP flight is released who the PIC is; the run-on argument has been about a FAA pilot, who might not be a CAP pilot, logging PIC time when serving as safety pilot. Tempest in teacup.
 
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