Cap and Trade is here - California

warthog1984 said:
Says the man hiring foreign help for his US-based hotel.

Dear Kettle, this is Pot...
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Says the man who can't find enough American workers willing to work in the summer. Hardly the same problem as Democrats knowingly creating environmental regulations that they knew would drive the good manufacturing jobs overseas.

I grew up in Racine, Wisconsin, site of the world's largest tractor plant -- the Clausen Works. 5,000 men once answered the whistle there, every day.

It's now a nice, clean, grassy field. Good work! :mad2:
 
No wonder they call it a scheme

TazzyTazzy said:
I know very little about this, so, I'll say something and pretend it's from God.

Home owners with solar can sell carbon credits (AKA: Renewable Energy Certificate) on the power they generate (maybe only the excess power??).

I'm completely pulling this outta my arse, but I think something like this happens:

I have solar on my house, I bought a 20 year lease, paid 100% up front with no recurring fees or activites, and it's pretty much mine after the lease if I want it; otherwise they remove the system for free. The lease was 1/4 the cost of buying solar myself and cut my electric bill in half (accounting for the cost of the solar system). I think the solar lease company can sell my carbon offset credits to make up much of that difference. In 20 years, I'll be able to sell those credits myself if the system viable and I decide to keep the system.
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I get it, a stealthy transfer of wealth from the poor who rent and don't have solar panels to the richer home owners who do. Reminds me of the mortgage interest deduction.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Says the man who can't find enough American workers willing to work in the summer. Hardly the same problem as Democrats knowingly creating environmental regulations that they knew would drive the good manufacturing jobs overseas.

I grew up in Racine, Wisconsin, site of the world's largest tractor plant -- the Clausen Works. 5,000 men once answered the whistle there, every day.

It's now a nice, clean, grassy field. Good work! :mad2:
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That is the biggest lie there is, that is such a crock of ****! Sorry, no, shipping manufacturing to China and turning them into a consumer society for for the financial markets to tap into, that was all planned outside any ecological movement. As far as environmental legislation and your position against it, you're a ****ing idiot. If it weren't for those environmental regulations you mention, your hotel would be on an oil sludge and plastic strewn ****hole of a sand spit that no one would visit due to the foul stench and filth.

You really need to take a vacation to Indonesia on the North Coast to get a sample of what the GOM coast would be like without those regulations. The BP spills would be monthly.
 
Cap and Trade has been in California since the early 90's, when I was studying Economics at CSUF.

The theory is sound: put a cap on the amount of emissions of a particular type within an appropriately sized umbrella, and then polluters will either invest in equipment to clean up their operation OR purchase the right to pollute from others who have a different set of technology or choose not to produce because of market forces. The other portion of the early programs (Nox and Sox) was that over time the Caps were reduced.

Really cleaned up the SCAQMD and companies cleaned up (some literally, some financially)

Here comes my conservative soap box... the size of the umbrella is important. Many companies eventually left the LA Basin for places like NV, AZ, and TX. So, if this is attempted nationally the exodus would go North or South.
 
bartmc said:
Ha got Harry Reid though. Vegas is home to the King.
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I forgot about him... I am still getting over the fact that i can actually walk into a gun store and buy a gun here.. I'm sure once that novelty wears off i will see all the rats for what they are.
 
denverpilot said:
California often reaps the results of their voter's stupidity.

This is not a surprise and not without a whole lot of precedent.
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Oh please! If California has already done it, Colorado is right behind. The liberals that run your state just want to see us go first. Voter stupidity knows no state borders.
 
Every breath you take...

every move you make....

every bond you break

every step you take,

You're breathing CO2
 
Jay Honeck said:
I grew up in Racine, Wisconsin, site of the world's largest tractor plant -- the Clausen Works. 5,000 men once answered the whistle there, every day.

It's now a nice, clean, grassy field. Good work! :mad2:
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I got curious, so I Googled away. That big tractor plant in Racine didn't go away because of over bearing government regulation, it went away due to Case tractors being publicly traded and globalization. It's a story of international mergers and acquisitions.

1842- Jerome Case founds the Racine Threshing Machine Works in Racine WI.
1863- Jerome Case brings in partners and founds the J.I. Case and Co.
1880- J.I. Case and Co. incorporates.
1963- By this time, Case has 125 distributorships with subsidiaries in United Kingdom, France, South Africa, Brazil and Australia, with 15 licensees in other countries. Twenty percent of U.S. production is shipped overseas.
1985- Case acquires International Harvester and becomes Case IH.
1986- Steiger tractors goes bankrupt and Case IH buys them up.
1996- Case IH acquires controlling interest in Steyr Landmaschinentechnik GmbH of St. Valentin, Austria,
1998- Case IH buys Tyler Manufacturing.
1999- Case IH merges with New Holland tractors which in turn is owned by Fiat SpA and creates CNH (Case New Holland)
2002- The "Clausing Works" is closed.

However, the headquarters for Case IH is still in Racine and they have a factory there too. The new address is-

2701 Oakes Road
Sturtevant, WI 53177

They also have plants in Grand Island, Nebraska and Fargo, ND. The parent company, CNH, has plants in North America, Latin America, Europe, India, China and Uzbekistan.

As is often the case with international mergers, things get consolidated and resources leveraged where it makes sense. Much of what is sold under the Case, or International Harvester brands is likely imported, but some of it is made here. Interestingly, CNH has factories in England, Belgium, France, Poland and two in Italy. Hardly places free from government regulations, unions and high hourly wages.

I agree with you that government regulations is certainly a contributing factor when a company is deciding whether to outsource or not, but it is not the main reason. Those jobs in Racine were lost due to being publicly traded and globalization. Much of the work in Racine was likely redundant with work in other parts of CNH, so they got axed. Who knows, had Case remained privately owned, they might have more jobs in Racine? On the other hand, without public investment, they would likely not have been able to become so big.
 
Were there other factors in the decision to close the biggest tractor plant in the world and turn it into a big, grassy, hopelessly contaminated field?

Uh, yeah. Plenty of them.

Government over-regulation of everything from what they could build and where they could build it was in the top 5, probably in the top 3 reasons.

At the precise moment globalization put pressure on our industry to compete, the politicians (primarily, but not exclusively, liberal Democrat) imposed increasingly stinger environment talk restrictions on them, knowing full well what the outcome would be.

The departure was inevitable.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Were there other factors in the decision to close the biggest tractor plant in the world and turn it into a big, grassy, hopelessly contaminated field?
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You write this and then say-

the politicians (primarily, but not exclusively, liberal Democrat) imposed increasingly stinger environment talk restrictions on them, knowing full well what the outcome would be.
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Wouldn't the hopelessly contaminated field perhaps warrant better environmental controls for the sake of the people that live there? If companies would have been better environmental stewards, there wouldn't be demand for regulation. Sadly, the mandate for maximum profit doesn't allow for environmental stewardship. The huge majority of shareholders don't live in Racine and don't care what happens to those people. Short term, or long term.

Rather than cut into profits, or raise prices so that we can actually have an improved and healthy environment, we now export our pollution to foreign countries. Science is a double edged sword. On one side science is what allowed the industrial revolution to occur and bring prosperity. On the other, science shows us that the byproduct of the industrial revolution, namely pollution, was killing us. Rather than deal with it, most have chosen to move the pollution and kill other people.

Government over-regulation of everything from what they could build and where they could build it was in the top 5, probably in the top 3 reasons.
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What weren't they allowed to build? There are a few things known to be so toxic that it's tough, if not impossible to find a place in the US to make them, but to my knowledge, tractors isn't one of them.

the politicians (primarily, but not exclusively, liberal Democrat) imposed increasingly stinger environment talk restrictions on them, knowing full well what the outcome would be.

The departure was inevitable.
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How does this make sense? Why would the liberal Democrats drive manufacturing out of the country on purpose? My guess is those factory jobs were union jobs. Probably covered by the UAW. I would think that in a state like Wisconsin, the democratic politicians would far more fear the wrath of the unions than they would the wrath of the Sierra Club. Democrats are all about preserving union jobs. The unions are one of their biggest campaign contributors.

I guess you can't be convinced. That's OK I guess. It doesn't matter. Manufacturing the way it was in the 50s and 60s is gone from this country and it's never coming back. No change in politicians or policy will change this. It's a global world now.
 
Jumpmaster said:
Washington is next. Our Governor has just proposed a carbon tax primarily on gas. Patterned somewhat after our friends to the North in British Columbia who have had a carbon tax for a few years, it would raise taxes on gas here around $.10 per gallon making Washington's gas tax close to the highest in all of the states. The irony is that Washington doesn't have a significant carbon problem as concluded by the Governor's task force supported by several studies including one by the U of W on climate. The state can fairly easily meet the propose EPA standards for 2030 unlike a lot of states. But carbon taxes in one form or another are popular with certain political parties and Left Coasters. :dunno:
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Jay never met a tax he didn't like, nor a way to grow government.
 
I paid $3.449 this morning and asked the station owner how much is cap and trade. He couldn't say it is buried in the price and we are not privy to the amount.
 
Dav8or said:
Rather than deal with it, most have chosen to move the pollution and kill other people.
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Hey, to be fair, China is doing the same to us.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/w...pollution-to-western-us-study-finds.html?_r=0

Powerful global winds called westerlies can carry pollutants from China across the Pacific within days, leading to “dangerous spikes in contaminants,” especially during the spring, according to a news release from the University of California, Irvine, where one of the study’s co-authors, Steven J. Davis, is an earth system scientist. “Dust, ozone and carbon can accumulate in valleys and basins in California and other Western states,” the statement said.

Black carbon is a particular problem because rain does not wash it out of the atmosphere, so it persists across long distances, the statement said. Black carbon is linked to asthma, cancer, emphysema, and heart and lung disease.

“Los Angeles experiences at least one extra day a year of smog that exceeds federal ozone limits because of nitrogen oxides and carbon monoxide emitted by Chinese factories making goods for export,” the statement said.
 
Henning said:
My take on a Vegas patio, you can either hang meat or cook meat on it depending on day or even morning and afternoon.:lol:
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I will concur with this. The high here on 12/31 was just above freezing.
 
CharlieTango said:
I paid $3.449 this morning and asked the station owner how much is cap and trade. He couldn't say it is buried in the price and we are not privy to the amount.
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That's the "living 100 miles from nowhere" tax. Everything in Mammoth costs a hell of a lot more than anywhere else.

Gas prices in my area have been rock solid for the last few weeks. Avgas has been dropping like a stone, to the point where the airplane rental fuel "surcharges" are negative.

So, it would seem the cap & trade effect is smaller than other effects in play. Were it dominant like we were led to believe, these results would be impossible.
 
MAKG1 said:
So, it would seem the cap & trade effect is smaller than other effects in play. Were it dominant like we were led to believe, these results would be impossible.
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I'm not sure the C n T taxes are even included in gasoline at the pump now. It's all new and I'm not sure the "exchange" is even set up set. I don't fully under the mechanisms, but the tax is predicted by people in the know to start small and ramp up over time, so it won't be super obvious at first. In either case, the tax is on the wholesalers, so the retailers will likely never know unless they go asking about it. It will just be folded into the price they pay.
 
Dav8or said:
I'm not sure the C n T taxes are even included in gasoline at the pump now. It's all new and I'm not sure the "exchange" is even set up set. I don't fully under the mechanisms, but the tax is predicted by people in the know to start small and ramp up over time, so it won't be super obvious at first. In either case, the tax is on the wholesalers, so the retailers will likely never know unless they go asking about it. It will just be folded into the price they pay.
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Our local Chevron asked about it and was told that it was not for him or the public to know.
 
CharlieTango said:
Our local Chevron asked about it and was told that it was not for him or the public to know.
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As it should be, people are too stupid to be trusted with this type information! It could cause them to reconsider who they vote for! :rofl::rofl:
As a resident of Georgia, I don't see us getting this type of tax for many years, I'm sure it's coming eventually, every state seems to study the other states revenue models and look for creative ways to increase taxes!
 
CharlieTango said:
Our local Chevron asked about it and was told that it was not for him or the public to know.
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You ask truck drivers and retail outlets about the dynamics of wholesale commodities and wonder why they don't know? Really?

Commodity pricing is a dynamical sysytem. No one is in direct control. And the people you are asking are in profoundly poor position to understand the indirect forces. Why not ask the garbage collector while you're at it?
 
MAKG1 said:
You ask truck drivers and retail outlets about the dynamics of wholesale commodities and wonder why they don't know? Really?

Commodity pricing is a dynamical sysytem. No one is in direct control. And the people you are asking are in profoundly poor position to understand the indirect forces. Why not ask the garbage collector while you're at it?
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He's the retailer making the purchase and he already gets a list of the many other taxes included in the price.
 
CharlieTango said:
He's the retailer making the purchase and he already gets a list of the many other taxes included in the price.
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It is not a tax he or any of his customers pay. Nor is it really a tax at all. It is the cost of an exchangeable permit, whose price floats. There are penalties for exceeding the permit, but have you ever seen any invoice that contains penalties not applied directly to you?

A carbon tax has been suggested many times, but that is NOT what cap'n'trade is.
 
MAKG1 said:
It is not a tax he or any of his customers pay. Nor is it really a tax at all. It is the cost of an exchangeable permit, whose price floats. There are penalties for exceeding the permit, but have you ever seen any invoice that contains penalties not applied directly to you?

A carbon tax has been suggested many times, but that is NOT what cap'n'trade is.
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His customers do pay it they are just not privy to how much it is. In these progressive times we argue and even go to court over whether or not the cost imposed is a tax or a fee or now a 'cost'. Bottom line is the government imposed the tax/fee/cost, the consumer funds it and the wealth is transferred minus of course the govt's share.

Why such a regressive 'tax' from such a progressive govt? That's why its so hidden and hush hush.
 
MAKG1 said:
A carbon tax has been suggested many times, but that is NOT what cap'n'trade is.
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The people pay, the money goes to the state government and they get to spend it. It's a tax. Trying to make it sound reasonable by calling it a "permit" doesn't make it OK.

At least in my world anyhow. Call it what it is. A tax.
 
Does anyone know if this applies to fuel made in California and exported to Nevada? I haul fuel for a living and 90% is out of Vegas into Utah. But starting at the first of the year we switched to salt lake. Just curious if this will price Vegas fuel 10 cents for a gallon more.
 
Marky_24 said:
Does anyone know if this applies to fuel made in California and exported to Nevada? I haul fuel for a living and 90% is out of Vegas into Utah. But starting at the first of the year we switched to salt lake. Just curious if this will price Vegas fuel 10 cents for a gallon more.
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Ummmm... I don't get it. what do Las Vegas and Salt Lake City have to do with California? Either way, I don't really know, but if the fuel was made in California and then sent to an out of state wholesaler, then there is no tax as I understand it. Only wholesalers in California have to pay it. I don't really know and I'm not an expert. I'm just going by what I've read so far.
 
warthog1984 said:
That's NOT the way it's supposed to work. You missed the "and trade" portion.
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:rofl: Imagine the government actually doing what they promised the tax money!!:rofl:
When cash is confiscated by the government via taxes, fees, permits or whatever you want to label it, the government adds more bureaucrats to spend it! The preferred method of spending generally includes hiring even more bureaucrats! :mad2:
 
Dav8or said:
Ummmm... I don't get it. what do Las Vegas and Salt Lake City have to do with California? Either way, I don't really know, but if the fuel was made in California and then sent to an out of state wholesaler, then there is no tax as I understand it. Only wholesalers in California have to pay it. I don't really know and I'm not an expert. I'm just going by what I've read so far.
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The fuel is made in California and piped to Vegas, i pick it up and haul it to Utah. Now all the sudden we are going to SLC(300 miles to SLC vs 110 to Vegas) so im wondering if cap and trade has affected the wholesale price in Vegas.
 
Dav8or said:
The people pay, the money goes to the state government and they get to spend it. It's a tax. Trying to make it sound reasonable by calling it a "permit" doesn't make it OK.

At least in my world anyhow. Call it what it is. A tax.
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There are no other "taxes" anywhere that work by auction.

The closest analogy would be a concession fee such as a mineral rights lease.

The company, not the government, decides how much to pay. And can sell it to other companies at a profit or loss. How many taxes do you know of that work that way?

It's simple to call everything involving money a tax and use it as invective to try to manipulate people. Too simple.
 
I see the California-haters are out in force this week! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
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