Can't Handle Altitude Anymore

They become very anemic right at 10,000 feet, where you start to need it.
 
What you need is an oxygen concentrator. Most of them are FAA certified for use on commercial airlines, but will do good work up to 18000ft in independent tests. Just plug it in to your 12 or 24V outlet in the plane and enjoy free oxygen without having to deal with the hassle of refilling O2 bottles. This is the future and the same technology exists in the F-35 and most modern fighter jets.

http://www.portableoxygenconcentratorsales.com/SimplyGo_by_Respironics_p/simplygo.htm?click=71
 
stratobee said:
What you need is an oxygen concentrator. Most of them are FAA certified for use on commercial airlines, but will do good work up to 18000ft in independent tests. Just plug it in to your 12 or 24V outlet in the plane and enjoy free oxygen without having to deal with the hassle of refilling O2 bottles. This is the future and the same technology exists in the F-35 and most modern fighter jets.

http://www.portableoxygenconcentratorsales.com/SimplyGo_by_Respironics_p/simplygo.htm?click=71
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Do you have a link to the results of the independent tests? I can't find it from your link to the product brochure. This would be a nice utility for the OPs condition on a hot day, at around 10k'. Not where pilots require O2, but high enough to cause problems for some folks.
 
stratobee said:
What you need is an oxygen concentrator. Most of them are FAA certified for use on commercial airlines, but will do good work up to 18000ft in independent tests. Just plug it in to your 12 or 24V outlet in the plane and enjoy free oxygen without having to deal with the hassle of refilling O2 bottles. This is the future and the same technology exists in the F-35 and most modern fighter jets.

http://www.portableoxygenconcentratorsales.com/SimplyGo_by_Respironics_p/simplygo.htm?click=71
Click to expand...

That is cool! Now, we need those studies. Any links?

This thing makes a lot more sense than filling tanks.
 
The cheapest one is $2500(new retail). AFAIK, you can't use it above 12.5k as PIC, and there appears to be a concern with the output at altitude. I'm back to welding O2 tanks for now.
 
stratobee said:
What you need is an oxygen concentrator. Most of them are FAA certified for use on commercial airlines, but will do good work up to 18000ft in independent tests. Just plug it in to your 12 or 24V outlet in the plane and enjoy free oxygen without having to deal with the hassle of refilling O2 bottles. This is the future and the same technology exists in the F-35 and most modern fighter jets.

http://www.portableoxygenconcentratorsales.com/SimplyGo_by_Respironics_p/simplygo.htm?click=71
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Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Makes sense that they would get weak at altitude though.

Please send money, more research is needed!:D

George
 
Geico266 said:
They get hot as the gas expands.
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Negative ghostrider, the gas gets cool as it expands, but it isn't expanding in the receiving tank so it gets hot as the gas is compressed


Semantics I know, but the earth isn't a sphere either, at least not quite:wink2:
 
docmirror said:
The cheapest one is $2500(new retail). AFAIK, you can't use it above 12.5k as PIC, and there appears to be a concern with the output at altitude. I'm back to welding O2 tanks for now.
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Likely better than nothing, but you can buy a lot of O2 for that much money.
 
It's one of those marketing things. If the little gens will provide ~90% O2 purity @ 4LPM @ 14k', I would think it's something to consider. If it only does ~70% O2 @ 2.5LPM @ 14k', it could be cause for false security, and make things worse.

The OP was getting hypoxic at 10k, and I've felt the effects on a long flight at 11k as well. Maybe a non-certified use would be of value for this type, but I'd want one with a purity gauge built in, and an alarm.
 
Skylane81E said:
Negative ghostrider, the gas gets cool as it expands, but it isn't expanding in the receiving tank so it gets hot as the gas is compressed
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Right on.. the tank with pressure rising gets hot, the tank w pressure falling gets cold.
 
Skylane81E said:
Negative ghostrider, the gas gets cool as it expands, but it isn't expanding in the receiving tank so it gets hot as the gas is compressed


Semantics I know, but the earth isn't a sphere either, at least not quite:wink2:
Click to expand...


Yep, my mistake. Fingers were engaged before brain. :lol:
 
Geico266 said:
You will need ( it is advised) to have 2 fill tanks. One will do the heavy filling, the second does the "top off" .....
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Or get a few pilots together and build a in house O2 fill station....

The two tank routine does work but you will only get max PSI form the fullest host tank and as that dwindles you have to send it back to get topped off at the welding supply house and they charge the same whether they add a full tanks worth of O2 or 500 extra PSI...

The cure is to buy one of these pumps to fill bottles and then you only need one host tank... And that one can be drained down to 100 PSI so you get your money's worth and not sending host bottles back that are 1/2 full for a refill....

http://www.haskel.com/corp/details/0,,CLI1_DIV139_ETI9787,00.html
 
N801BH said:
Or get a few pilots together and build a in house O2 fill station....

The two tank routine does work but you will only get max PSI form the fullest host tank and as that dwindles you have to send it back to get topped off at the welding supply house and they charge the same whether they add a full tanks worth of O2 or 500 extra PSI...

The cure is to buy one of these pumps to fill bottles and then you only need one host tank... And that one can be drained down to 100 PSI so you get your money's worth and not sending host bottles back that are 1/2 full for a refill....

http://www.haskel.com/corp/details/0,,CLI1_DIV139_ETI9787,00.html
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Just looked up the price on that rascal. Wow. Guess the pressure it boosts to is the reason for the $$$$. Any cheaper options out there?
 
FORANE said:
Just looked up the price on that rascal. Wow. Guess the pressure it boosts to is the reason for the $$$$. Any cheaper options out there?
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Yup... there is other ways to skin a cat...;)
 
Skylane81E said:
A third tank
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Airgas has cornered the market out here by buying up all the competitors... A large bottle of O2 cost 68.00 + their hazmat fee of 31.00 so a fresh bottle will run right around 100 bucks... Plus the annual bottle rental fee and the boost pump starts looking very inviting... Local FBO went this route and cut their O2 costs by 2/3's.....
 
N801BH said:
Airgas has cornered the market out here by buying up all the competitors... A large bottle of O2 cost 68.00 + their hazmat fee of 31.00 so a fresh bottle will run right around 100 bucks... Plus the annual bottle rental fee and the boost pump starts looking very inviting... Local FBO went this route and cut their O2 costs by 2/3's.....
Click to expand...

I imagine they pump more O2 than we do, for us it is a no brainer as the cost of the pump is many years worth of O2 tank purchases.
 
dweyant said:
Second. Be very, very, very careful with high pressure oxygen. I can not over state this. It can be handled safely and it isn't that hard, but an oxygen fire is a scary thing. Please,are sure you know what you are doing if you are going to roll your own O2. If you are interested in doing this I'd be happy to provide some resources and suggestions.
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Please do! I've heard this warning over and over again in these discussions but I haven't ever seen anything about how to learn how to handle the oxygen. Thanks!
 
This is a great thread -- thanks, everyone, for your input.

And I will second the motion for more resources and advice on how to handle O2. If I go the homebuilt route, and put one of these pump set-ups in my hangar, it would be good info to have.
 
You guys can google oxygen safety and read a bunch of safety tips.
Some basic rules are:
dont smoke around it.
keep the tanks away from heat and spark / flame.
open regulators / valves slowly.
if you hear any leaks remove from service and replace gaskets as necessary.
limit use in poorly ventilated areas.
Dont use lubricants around oxygen.
secure tanks so they cannot tip over and knock off valve.
 
JOhnH said:
For our veterinary hospital, we have to use only Medical Grade Oxygen. We are not allowed to use welding tanks. We get it from the same distributor as welders, but the Medical grade tanks have to be certified as such.

So I have to ask the question: Is welding grade oxygen really good enough for people to breathe.
Click to expand...


http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/abo1.htm
http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/oxygen.htm

http://www.ilmoproducts.com/industries-served/welding-cutting/gases-their-applications/oxygen/
 
Last edited:
Jay Honeck said:
Anyone tried these?

http://www.boostoxygen.com/products/
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Those are not serviceable for aircraft use. It says "150 inhalations", and I presume you have to hit a button and hold it to your face every time you inhale.

And a hit every few minutes is not enough to maintain the proper O2 levels in your blood stream. You should fly with an oxy meter to know what you're levels are.

You need an aviation approved system, like what craggy aero offers.
Us glider pilots fly high (altitude) all the time on those systems.

Last Sunday in the T-41B, crising at 10500 for two hours, OAT was around 63F, DA was 12500. I was fine, although my O2 was in the low 90s with no supplemental Oxy.
 
N801BH said:
Or get a few pilots together and build a in house O2 fill station....

The two tank routine does work but you will only get max PSI form the fullest host tank and as that dwindles you have to send it back to get topped off at the welding supply house and they charge the same whether they add a full tanks worth of O2 or 500 extra PSI...

The cure is to buy one of these pumps to fill bottles and then you only need one host tank... And that one can be drained down to 100 PSI so you get your money's worth and not sending host bottles back that are 1/2 full for a refill....

http://www.haskel.com/corp/details/0,,CLI1_DIV139_ETI9787,00.html
Click to expand...

I like that "air driven" no electricity needed. But you need an air compressor to drive it, electric or gas. Our IA had one.
 
These POC's are only certified for up to about maybe up to 8000ft, i.e. the altitude of a pressurised cabin. But since they're portable, they technically don't need certification and should be legal to use at higher altitudes.

Here's the link to the FAA certified models:
http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/cabin_safety/portable_oxygen/

The military did tests up to 18000ft with POC's and here's a link to those results. They provided a 95,2% oxygen level even at that altitude, easily verified by an O2 meter clipped to the finger. On the website is a link to the full test in pdf:

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA371747

RC Journal did some tests and it has some graphs:

http://www.rcjournal.com/abstracts/2009/?id=678059
 
If you do use a POC, make sure the cigarette lighter has enough capacity. I have blown a fuse once or twice in the car.

Cheers
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Please do! I've heard this warning over and over again in these discussions but I haven't ever seen anything about how to learn how to handle the oxygen. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Handling high pressure oxygen safely isn't hard, but if you screw up the downside is huge...

Very simply you have to keep everything very clean, not just regular clean, but O2 clean. The means no lubricants that are not o2 compatible.

The other big rule with Oxygen, is, slow. Filling quickly with (any gas) o2 creates heat. As you know heat is 1/3 of what you need for a fire. You already have the O2 in abundance, and you would be amazed at what will burn with enough heat and O2.

If you are serious about setting up an O2 system, it really isn't that hard, and in my area I pay about $20 for a 300cf bottle of Oxygen, I'd highly reccomend this book.

http://www.airspeedpress.com/newoxyhacker.html

It is geared for technical scuba divers, but it will show you everything you need to be able to safely fill Oxygen bottles.

-Dan
 
BillTIZ said:
I like that "air driven" no electricity needed. But you need an air compressor to drive it, electric or gas. Our IA had one.
Click to expand...

Haskels are great units. I had one for years. They consume a LOT of shop compressor gas. I.e. you will want a shop compressor that is 220v, decent size.

A good haskel new is $3k+, figure another $500 - $1000 for fittings. High Pressure swagelok are expensive$$

You can usually find an O2 clean Haskel used for $2k - $2.5k.

Please make sure you are buying an O2 clean Haskel. They sell numerous units that are not cleaned for O2 service. Using them to boost Oxygen to 3,000psi (usual service pressure of most tanks) could be a fatally bad idea.

-Dan
 
I just spoke with Larry Hollander, Vice President of Operations at Airgas, and found out a few things I didn't know:

I didn't know they provided 3 grades of Oxygen:
Medical
Aviator
Industrial.

In most cases (as in Florida), you need to be licensed by the State Pharmacy Board to purchase Medical grade oxygen.

Aviator oxygen is what everyone should be using for flight.

You should not be using Industrial (welding) oxygen at elevated altitudes due to potential moisture.

He confirmed that the oxygen is all the same and comes from the same bulk tanks.

The difference is primarily that Medical and Aviator Oxygen MUST be tested after the tank is refilled and before it is distributed to the user. The testing is primarily for moisture, which is especially important at altitude.

Industrial oxygen tanks are not tested after refilling, but the bulk tanks are certified to be more pure than the stated minimum requirements for Medical or Aviator Oxygen. This is why it has been said that Industrial Oxygen is more pure than Medical. If moisture were introduced during or after the filling process it would not be detected due to not testing those tanks, and that is why industrial gas should not be used at altitude.

In addition, due to the fact that moisture is particularly dangerous at altitude, Aviator tanks are filled in an inverted position so that if there is any moisture, it can be blown out of the valve prior to going upright and being tested.

So, if you are going to buy your own oxygen from a distributor, specify Aviator Grade. If you are going to buy from an alternate source, try to buy from someone that buys Aviator grade, like and FBO.
 
tonycondon said:
i use O2 anytime i think i'm going to be above 10K. At Moriarty (field elevation 6K, takeoff DA 9K)
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I heard DA does not matter for oxygen, because the air in your langs is at body temperature.
 
zaitcev said:
I heard DA does not matter for oxygen, because the air in your langs is at body temperature.
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yea i read that too, either way we were expecting to rapidly climb to well above 12K so it was just a lot easier to start the O2 up on the runway
 
zaitcev said:
I heard DA does not matter for oxygen, because the air in your langs is at body temperature.
Click to expand...

Only if it's there long enough to equalize with your body - Which, IMO, it isn't. I know that when I go running, it's a lot easier to breathe when it's cooler and drier out.

Your body certainly changes the temperature of the air you're breathing, but it's not going to make it all the way to body temperature.
 
Hey Jay, what did you finally decide on?

I posted this info in another thread:

The Inogen Aviator G2-1265 is good up to 18,000 feet (single person). When my RV-9A is finished I'm getting some kind of O2 system, and the concentrators are attractive, but I doubt I'll fly at altitude enough to come anywhere close to paying for their cost relative to a bottled system.
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But the Inogen website says it's good up to 10,000 feet. I wonder if the first company modified it for service at 18K or is just blowing hot air.
 
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