Cancelling IFR

MAKG1 said:
That you're holding a cashier's check should be irrelevant to your flying.
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Yes, god forbid the guy is using a plane to get somewhere fast...and even worse the man was on a time table and not just boring holes in the sky.

It always amazes me that people seem to think being in a hurry HAS to be a safety issue. Although needing to be somewhere may increase the risk of somebody rushing through something important, things like cancelling IFR to proceed to a field quickly is totally fine in my book .. I guess I'm saying l don't see what your problem with what he DID was. I do have a problem with what he SAID.

Saying "Im not waiting for this slow guy" on frequency to me is pretty rude to say about a guy practicing approaches...we were all there once and I would not want to be hearing that from someone else while flying...

If I was in the OP's shoes I would have just cancelled IFR when I saw the 172 and proceeded VFR to the airport as fast as possible while maintaining separation, which sound like what he did. I however would have saved the insult on frequency.
 
Shucks... I've flown some of the fastest civilian airplanes ever built. I have slowed, by as much as 100 mph for slower traffic ahead. I've never put them down for being slower.. It's just the way it goes.
 
I really didn't read any responses and didn't pay too much attention to OP's post. However, I will throw this out there. I cancel all the time to get ahead of some slow guy holding up the flow in VMC conditions.

I either have the traffic in sight, or on the screen and then already have my plan of action laid out before I cancel.
 
neilw2 said:
Saying "Im not waiting for this slow guy" on frequency to me is pretty rude to say about a guy practicing approaches...we were all there once and I would not want to be hearing that from someone else while flying...
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I was once asked to slow down for someone practicing approaches. And I was in a 172 :D

Looking back over the thread, I think I owe at least a partial apology for some of my remarks. In visual conditions after canceling IFR, or even on a visual approach, there really is nothing wrong with passing a slow guy 10 miles out (something not mentioned in the original post) and landing ahead of him.

I think I, and perhaps a few others, were reacting more to the unnecessary "I am not waiting for this slow guy" remark. But I will stick to my guns on the need to fly at 737 approach speeds to gain 1-2 minutes over the course of 10 miles (using the OP's 160/120 example) and the sense of missionitis at least suggested by the need to rush to get the check there.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
There was a 172 doing a practice approach in front of me. Being inpatient and in a hurry, I responded with "cancel IFR, I am not waiting for this slow guy"
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Not sure if it was your intent but that statement is what set the tone for people post slamming your decision making and behavior. It comes across extremely douchey, especially if the 172 was on the same freq. But do what you gotta do but don't expect to be invited to any birthday parties.
 
OkieAviator said:
Not sure if it was your intent but that statement is what set the tone for people post slamming your decision making and behavior. It comes across extremely douchey, especially if the 172 was on the same freq. But do what you gotta do but don't expect to be invited to any birthday parties.
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Thanks. No it wasn't the intent to be douchy, I just wanted to be on the ground and I wanted atc to know that was what I was about to do. Usually, when the weather allows, it's good manners to pick up the pace when occupying an approach, especially when someone is behind you. When I passed him he had his flaps way out and wasn't even at the faf. Even if he was on the same frequency I doubt he was even aware I was arriving at the same airport. Let alone know I was talking about him. Same kind of guy that lands at an uncontrolled airport and doesn't call to cancel until the cover is on the airplane. Certainly not a person I am going to make a day celebrating their birthday with.

I guess I subconsciously get annoyed with people who do things at their own leisure with no regards to how it affects those around them. I made a remark yesterday to planes occupying different taxiways for midfield departures. " I'm just going to taxi all the way down the entire 9000' runway because a Cessna and piper are occupying the only midfield taxiways" maybe that was douchey too? I thought it was douchey they couldn't depart from the same taxiway so arrivals have a place to exit. I'm done ranting


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dtuuri said:
It's a good thing there WAS a controller. Doing that at an uncontrolled field, you might have flown right up the guy's exhaust stack before you even saw him.

dtuuri
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How so?
 
James331 said:
How so?
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He's making a practice approach, so no need to coordinate with ATC, no knowledge of traffic ahead. Steaming into the pattern at a high rate of speed from the six o'clock (low "frontal area") position makes spotting the guy much harder, especially if you don't even know he's there and you're thinking about the bank. There used to be a 156 kt speed limit for piston aircraft which I think based on experience is at the upper limit for "see and avoid" near airports. Just because it's legal to go faster doesn't make it smarter in my view.

I must say, after the OP took a drubbing, I felt maybe I overreacted because I misread his speed as 180 kts. Then I just read the latest post above. Nah. He's really got a bit of an attitude. Mouthing off at folks on a taxiway. How does he know why they're there, huh? Maybe they are trying to clear the parallel? Or they're waiting for an IFR release and don't know who's gonna be the first to go?

dtuuri
 
I used to descend into the pattern well above 156, with a nose down attitude and energy in spades I felt quite comfortable with seeing and avoiding.
 
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TheGolfPilot said:
I guess I subconsciously get annoyed with people who do things at their own leisure with no regards to how it affects those around them. I made a remark yesterday to planes occupying different taxiways for midfield departures. " I'm just going to taxi all the way down the entire 9000' runway because a Cessna and piper are occupying the only midfield taxiways" maybe that was douchey too? I thought it was douchey they couldn't depart from the same taxiway so arrivals have a place to exit. I'm done ranting
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That might of been douchey as well, I would of asked if either of them was planing to depart anytime soon so you could take off midfield. As someone posted above you don't know why they're there and it's probably not just to **** you off. Maybe they picked parking mid field because they wanted to allow traffic to go to the end of the runway, maybe they're midfield because they're having some plane issues or it's someone learning... or waiting on a clearance.

I can remember one time being a bit annoyed, I called base and as I was approaching turn to final a 210 announced 3 mile final... instead of being an ass and yelling at them, I slowed down to about 50, turned outbound a bit and let him land infront of me. After landing pulled up to the pump next to him, he was older and obviously had a lot of flying under his belt I told him his call freaked me out since I had just announced base. He apologized and said he was just released from ATC and they didn't mention traffic. So obviously he wasn't trying to be an asshat and would of been completely non-productive to drill into him at the pumps and in the end I learned sometimes ATC releases you to CTAF a bit late...
 
OkieAviator said:
That might of been douchey as well, I would of asked if either of them was planing to depart anytime soon so you could take off midfield. As someone posted above you don't know why they're there and it's probably not just to **** you off. Maybe they picked parking mid field because they wanted to allow traffic to go to the end of the runway, maybe they're midfield because they're having some plane issues or it's someone learning... or waiting on a clearance.

I can remember one time being a bit annoyed, I called base and as I was approaching turn to final a 210 announced 3 mile final... instead of being an ass and yelling at them, I slowed down to about 50, turned outbound a bit and let him land infront of me. After landing pulled up to the pump next to him, he was older and obviously had a lot of flying under his belt I told him his call freaked me out since I had just announced base. He apologized and said he was just released from ATC and they didn't mention traffic. So obviously he wasn't trying to be an asshat and would of been completely non-productive to drill into him at the pumps and in the end I learned sometimes ATC releases you to CTAF a bit late...
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I've had a guy cut me off on final before. Older guy, flying a rental, turned out he didn't realize his radios volume was down to nothing. I didn't yell at him, he was a nice guy, walked over to me on the ground apologized, and we had a pleasant conversation. I'm not a big mad mean person. I just don't have a lot of patience for people causing an unnecessary hassle and are totally oblivious to what they are doing. So I say something. Its a personality trait that goes past just flying an airplane. My response probably was too, I admit that

In the particular situation yesterday, both planes had anounced their intentions to depart midfield, neither shared what taxiway, and I though they should have used the same one to leave an exit. What they were doing was obnoxious and unnecessary.
 
EdFred said:
I'm generally flying my approaches at 140kts IAS in the Comanche until I have to drop the gear which is after the FAF. I don't get down below 90kts until I'm within 1/4 mile of the runway threshold. Toss in a 20kt headwind on approach 125kt GS / 70kt GS = almost twice as fast.
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I'm surprised the Comanche can slow down that quickly with that slick wing. I doubt my Mooney could. Gear speed in the Mooney is 120 mph anyway, and it doesn't like getting that slow clean.

I myself wouldn't mind waiting a few minutes. The aircraft is fairly complex, and there is a lot to do to transition to the landing phase. And once I do it flies just like a Skyhawk anyway. I'd rather be set up for the landing before I get into the airport environment. Its how I trained, and I like it philosophically. Maybe that'll change when I get into the IFR flight, but I have the feeling not. I suspect I'd rather have the extra time to deal.

Not that I would expect youth do any different. Always better to do what works for you.
 
steingar said:
I'm surprised the Comanche can slow down that quickly with that slick wing. I doubt my Mooney could. Gear speed in the Mooney is 120 mph anyway, and it doesn't like getting that slow clean.

I myself wouldn't mind waiting a few minutes. The aircraft is fairly complex, and there is a lot to do to transition to the landing phase. And once I do it flies just like a Skyhawk anyway. I'd rather be set up for the landing before I get into the airport environment. Its how I trained, and I like it philosophically. Maybe that'll change when I get into the IFR flight, but I have the feeling not. I suspect I'd rather have the extra time to deal.

Not that I would expect youth do any different. Always better to do what works for you.
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Nose up slips in VMC can slow you down in a hurry.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
In the particular situation yesterday, both planes had anounced their intentions to depart midfield, neither shared what taxiway, and I though they should have used the same one to leave an exit. What they were doing was obnoxious and unnecessary.
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Yep, an attitude. All about you is how you're coming across.
 
steingar said:
Dah, they can. But I hate, Hate, HATE, HATE going nose up anywhere in the vicinity of an airport in a low wing.
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It's really more level than nose UP. I can still see the runway when I do it.
 
steingar said:
If I'm slowing down from cruising to gear speed with a nose up slip I don't see much more than sky.
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Is that due to the height of the panel? I imagine you'd still be able to see the runway between the wing and the nose in many aircraft.
 
mkosmo said:
Is that due to the height of the panel?
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No, the Mooney has the lowest panel of any airplane in which I've flown. It is a combination of the amount of energy one must loose to come down to the required speed and the diminutive stature of its pilot.
 
steingar said:
No, the Mooney has the lowest panel of any airplane in which I've flown. It is a combination of the amount of energy one must loose to come down to the required speed and the diminutive stature of its pilot.
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So... if I ever get a Mooney, get one with speed brakes :)
 
mkosmo said:
So... if I ever get a Mooney, get one with speed brakes :)
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If you absolutely have to come screaming into the pattern, then yes, you need speed brakes. If you can practice a bit of energy management on descent and entry into the pattern it can be handled quite easily.
 
steingar said:
If you absolutely have to come screaming into the pattern, then yes, you need speed brakes. If you can practice a bit of energy management on descent and entry into the pattern it can be handled quite easily.
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What if I have a cashiers check that needs to be there now and I'm trying to scream around a Skyhawk doing 90?! Then I'll need brakes!
 
As someone doing a lot of practice approaches these days, and who could well be the poster child for your post, I have no problem with someone who wants to go around me in a faster plane, even if you were to say on my frequency that you don't want to wait for "this guy." Please, go around. Just cut me some slack if I don't cancel as quickly as you want me to, or you think a more experienced aviator would do.
 
mkosmo said:
What if I have a cashiers check that needs to be there now and I'm trying to scream around a Skyhawk doing 90?! Then I'll need brakes!
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Yup, you do. Many airplanes that go fast really don't slow down all that well.
 
What I don't get is you said you were running late, but wanted the RNAV approach. It would seem that you really were not in a hurry because if you were, you would have hot dogged it all the way in to the numbers and been done with it.

I don't really have any concern with what you did like some here take issue with. But don't try and act like you were hauling the mail when you were actually messing around. You can't log it, so it was nothing more than that. Even a VFR pilot can fly an RNAV in VMC so I don't really see your logic.

Sounds to me like you felt bad afterwards and wanted us to validate your actions, but found the wrong end of the spectrum.
 
I will say if I'm the guy doing practice approaches, I'll be more then happy to get out of other people's way. I consider practice app < people going point A-B. However, that is just me and others might see it the other way.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I've had a guy cut me off on final before. Older guy, flying a rental, turned out he didn't realize his radios volume was down to nothing. I didn't yell at him, he was a nice guy, walked over to me on the ground apologized, and we had a pleasant conversation. I'm not a big mad mean person. I just don't have a lot of patience for people causing an unnecessary hassle and are totally oblivious to what they are doing. So I say something. Its a personality trait that goes past just flying an airplane. My response probably was too, I admit that

In the particular situation yesterday, both planes had anounced their intentions to depart midfield, neither shared what taxiway, and I though they should have used the same one to leave an exit. What they were doing was obnoxious and unnecessary.
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We got the printed rules, plus a zillion variations by personality; you didn't break a rule, and the rest is indvidual "style". You still had time to configure and set up for a reasonsble landing. The hand-wringers wouldn't do it that way, but no matter - not their call, right?

I once took off ahead of a 172 on final. . .a mile-and-a-half final. A club CFI in the 172 had some grief with it. I pointed out he was about a minute and 15 seconds out, and I was cross-wind before he reached the threshold. And that interval was greater than airline ops at a busy airport.

Pointless conversation for both of us; he knew I was "unsafe" and I knew he was "time and distance challenged".
 
I am not IFR rated yet, but I am training in a Saratoga SP. So I am just looking for clarification on how you were performing the approach. My dad did IFR in the same plane, with a different CFI. Both of us were instructed to do approaches in that plane with one notch of flaps at around 100 knots. To use one notch of flaps I need to be below 110 knots for the Vfe. I was under the impression that approaches with first notch of flaps (based on two separate CFI's) is standard procedure. So you do your approaches completely clean, otherwise you would be well above Vfe in a 182 RG at 140 knots, correct? If I attempted to descend and slow down from FAF, even in a plane as "dirty" as a Sratoga, I do not see how I would have enough time to completely set up. As it is, it takes my plane roughly 3 NM to smoothly slow down from cruise to Vfe.

As for cancelling, stating your intentions and passing, I have no real issues with that, as long as it was done safely. I am not sure about the big rush over 3 minutes however, and the way you phrased your OP does come across as rude. The 172 had every right to be there practicing, just as you had every right to pass as long you broke no rules.
 
Basically, you need to be configured for landing at FAF. No more than takeoff flaps until sighting the runway environment, so you can go missed. You will probably need to level off to slow down. If it takes 3 miles, you need at least that. Same deal for hold entries.

There is nothing wrong with flying the approach in slow cruise, and that may help stay ahead of the plane, especially just as you're starting. Like other parts of flying, never let someone else's poor planning over 3 minutes cause you to do something unsafe, like getting behind the airplane.

You'll gain some flexibility as you gain proficiency.
 
MAKG1 said:
Basically, you need to be configured for landing at FAF. No more than takeoff flaps until sighting the runway environment, so you can go missed. You will probably need to level off to slow down. If it takes 3 miles, you need at least that. Same deal for hold entries.

There is nothing wrong with flying the approach in slow cruise, and that may help stay ahead of the plane, especially just as you're starting. Like other parts of flying, never let someone else's poor planning over 3 minutes cause you to do something unsafe, like getting behind the airplane.

You'll gain some flexibility as you gain proficiency.
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I very much like having the 1st notch of flaps in, it really makes the plane feel very stable, and makes it easy to control speed and altitude while slower. I also like having the gear as my speed brakes at the FAF, using the increased drag not to slow down more, but rather start the decent. I am still at the point where I have good foundation, and am more than capable of properly flying the approach, but doing everything on the plate, plus GUMPS, plus the 5 t's, and remain in tight control, can still be slightly overwhelming. I usually do it 90% + correct, but can't yet imagine condensing the timeframe. On the plus side, the CFI said after my last lesson it is time to progress to the XC portion of IFR training.
 
drotto said:
I am not IFR rated yet, but I am training in a Saratoga SP. So I am just looking for clarification on how you were performing the approach. My dad did IFR in the same plane, with a different CFI. Both of us were instructed to do approaches in that plane with one notch of flaps at around 100 knots. To use one notch of flaps I need to be below 110 knots for the Vfe. I was under the impression that approaches with first notch of flaps (based on two separate CFI's) is standard procedure. So you do your approaches completely clean, otherwise you would be well above Vfe in a 182 RG at 140 knots, correct? If I attempted to descend and slow down from FAF, even in a plane as "dirty" as a Sratoga, I do not see how I would have enough time to completely set up. As it is, it takes my plane roughly 3 NM to smoothly slow down from cruise to Vfe.
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The choice of flaps or no flaps is a question of technique not a required standard procedure. You found two CFIs who are flappers; you'll find plenty who are not.

Personally, I prefer no-flap Instrument approaches as a technique. I have flown about 30 different makes/models, including faster airplanes like Mooneys, Comanches and Bonanzas. I do no flap approaches in those at 100-105 KIAS. My only exception to approaches with no flaps is in a Cirrus. The key for me is situational awareness, staying ahead of the plane and planning speed reductions. My technique is an intermediate slow-down to 120 in the terminal area with a further slowdown to my approach speed as I get closer to the FAF.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The choice of flaps or no flaps is a question of technique not a required standard procedure. You found two CFIs who are flappers; you'll find plenty who are not.

Personally, I prefer no-flap Instrument approaches as a technique. I have flown about 30 different makes/models, including faster airplanes like Mooneys, Comanches and Bonanzas. I do no flap approaches in those at 100-105 KIAS. My only exception to approaches with no flaps is in a Cirrus. The key for me is situational awareness, staying ahead of the plane and planning speed reductions. My technique is an intermediate slow-down to 120 in the terminal area with a further slowdown to my approach speed as I get closer to the FAF.
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Being taught basically the same, just using flaps. I start slowing down from cruise about 5 NM from the IAP, fly the hold, approach or PT usually at or slightly about 100 KIAS, than go from there. Thanks for clarifying. As with everything different methods are equally correct for different people.
 
drotto said:
Being taught basically the same, just using flaps. I start slowing down from cruise about 5 NM from the IAP, fly the hold, approach or PT usually at or slightly about 100 KIAS, than go from there. Thanks for clarifying. As with everything different methods are equally correct for different people.
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As Mark said, different people will do different things flaps-wise, I had the same exact experience got taught both ways.

I keep the approach clean (no flaps) for a few reasons:

  • One less thing to mess with on approach when your workload is pretty high
  • In my plane, one notch of flaps requires me to fly at 2100 RPM, pretty close to the 2150->2250 do not fly range just to maintain 90 knots
  • Flaps = a LOT of drag and doesn't do much for me
  • Flaps one notch and 2100 is EXACTLY 90 knots for me. Any change in descent rate, headwind, etc will mess with speed enough to require more throttle, which I can't do, for the reason stated above
  • Lastly, it's one less thing to clean up on a missed/go-around
I don't often land with more than 2 notches of flaps max, never with full and most often with none or one, so it's a lot like a normal VFR approach to just not have flaps in. Depends on the airplane I guess as Mark said but works for me.
 
If you fly a fast plane, you pass other planes all the time. If you are going to be mad at the slow plane every time you do it, you are going to be one ****ed off person.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If you fly a fast plane, you pass other planes all the time. If you are going to be mad at the slow plane every time you do it, you are going to be one ****ed off person.
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Another pilot I know during IFR training had the CFI decide that landing at Philly International would be fun, and uses the VOR check on field as an excuse to request a landing. ATC is more than nice and gives him the crossing runway, so they do not have to sequence him in-between the heavy stuff. Commercial pilot on approach gets on the radio and asks if he needs to worry about the little plane. ATC response, "Nah, he's slow."
 
drotto said:
Another pilot I know during IFR training had the CFI decide that landing at Philly International would be fun, and uses the VOR check on field as an excuse to request a landing. ATC is more than nice and gives him the crossing runway, so they do not have to sequence him in-between the heavy stuff. Commercial pilot on approach gets on the radio and asks if he needs to worry about the little plane. ATC response, "Nah, he's slow."
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All 4 times I've flown into PHL it was dead. Did it twice in a 172 and twice in a Cirrus.
 
jordane93 said:
All 4 times I've flown into PHL it was dead. Did it twice in a 172 and twice in a Cirrus.
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Nah, they let everyone else know you were coming so they could steer clear. :D
 
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