Can the New CFI-S rules be used to (help) alleviate a Flying Club's CFI shortage?

James331 said:
With the outcome and prevalence of VFR to IMC, more instrument training and experience is better.
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Since ATPs are well-represented in VFR into IMC accidents, just exactly how much instrument training and experience are you proposing be required for a Ptivate Pilot certificate?
 
MarkH said:
But a CPL is required to obtain a CFI, thereby requiring a 2nd class medical to obtain a CFI.

My initial thought when I read this rule was to reach out to older pilots who have flown recreationally for decades (but don't want to risk Basic Med or Sport Pilot privileges by applying for a 2nd Class medical) or to team a limited availability CFI, with a lower time CFI-S for coordinated instruction.
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No ----- you do not need a 2nd Class medical to take a Commercial Pilot checkride, nor do you need a 2nd Class medical to act as a CFI. In fact ---- if the CFI is not required to act as PIC (such as would be the case if the student had a Private Pilot license or better), the CFI is not required to have a medical certificate at all. The FAA's position on this is that the CFI is being paid to TEACH the student to fly --- they are not being paid to FLY for compensation or hire, therefore a 2nd Class medical is not required.
 
davidgfern said:
No ----- you do not need a 2nd Class medical to take a Commercial Pilot checkride, nor do you need a 2nd Class medical to act as a CFI. In fact ---- if the CFI is not required to act as PIC (such as would be the case if the student had a Private Pilot license or better), the CFI is not required to have a medical certificate at all. The FAA's position on this is that the CFI is being paid to TEACH the student to fly --- they are not being paid to FLY for compensation or hire, therefore a 2nd Class medical is not required.
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The only exception to that would be in the case of a CFI giving a checkride for a type rating, in which case the CFI must be fully qualified to act as PIC of the aircraft.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Since ATPs are well-represented in VFR into IMC accidents, just exactly how much instrument training and experience are you proposing be required for a Ptivate Pilot certificate?
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Lol, you’re kidding right?
 
James331 said:
Lol, you’re kidding right?
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No...you said more conventional IFR training and experience would be better than actually training pilots to fly VFR and giving them better emergency instrument tools. I think the fact that the level of training and experience that ATPs have isn't really doing the job, and what we're doing isn't working, but I'm giving you the opportunity to support your position.
 
MauleSkinner said:
No...you said more conventional IFR training and experience would be better than actually training pilots to fly VFR and giving them better emergency instrument tools. I think the fact that the level of training and experience that ATPs have isn't really doing the job, and what we're doing isn't working, but I'm giving you the opportunity to support your position.
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I’m calling BS

Are you really saying a sport pilot with zero instrument training is going to have the same death rate as a person with hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of instrument time?

Ive flown VFR into bad weather, or dark nights, my instrument skills seem to work pretty damn well, I’ve done the same with people without instrument time and they often get all screwed up
 
James331 said:
Are you really saying a sport pilot with zero instrument training is ......
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James, at least argue from a correct understanding of SP training. A sport pilot is required to have instrument training before he can solo a plane having Vh > 87 knots, which is most modern LSAs.
 
Half Fast said:
James, at least argue from a correct understanding of SP training. A sport pilot is required to have instrument training before he can solo a plane having Vh > 87 knots, which is most modern LSAs.
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Oh sigh, so were off the ATPs kill thems selves left and right if they fly into a cloud eh?
That was a silly point to attempt to make

“
What are the training requirements for becoming a sport pilot?

  • Training requirements for a sport pilot certificate with airplane category —
    • A minimum of 20 hours flight time including:
      • 15 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor.
      • 5 hours solo flight.
    • Flight training must include at least:
      • 2 hours cross-country flight training.
      • 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop.
      • One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between takeoff and landing locations.
      • 2 hours flight training in preparation for the practical test.
      • Ground training from an instructor or home-study course.”
 
James331 said:
Oh sigh, so were off the ATPs kill thems selves left and right if they fly into a cloud eh?
That was a silly point to attempt to make

“
What are the training requirements for becoming a sport pilot?

  • Training requirements for a sport pilot certificate with airplane category —
    • A minimum of 20 hours flight time including:
      • 15 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor.
      • 5 hours solo flight.
    • Flight training must include at least:
      • 2 hours cross-country flight training.
      • 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop.
      • One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total distance with a full-stop landing at a minimum of two points and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles between takeoff and landing locations.
      • 2 hours flight training in preparation for the practical test.
      • Ground training from an instructor or home-study course.”
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Sigh.

14 CFR 61.93. Solo cross-country flight requirements.
....
(12) Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS.
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Yes, sport pilots get instrument instruction before solo xc in a plane with Vh over 87 knots. Just as I said.

Argue what you will about ATPs, as it has nothing to do with the discussion in this thread, but for Orville’s sake at least get straight on the sport pilot training you insist on criticizing.
 
James331 said:
I’m calling BS

Are you really saying a sport pilot with zero instrument training is going to have the same death rate as a person with hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of instrument time?
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no. You might try actually reading my posts if you're going to pretend to respond to them.

Ive flown VFR into bad weather, or dark nights, my instrument skills seem to work pretty damn well, I’ve done the same with people without instrument time and they often get all screwed up
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So have I, but it wasn't my instrument skills that kept me out of IMC...or even right side up, for that matter. But I'm probably not as good as you at flying instruments without any gyros.
 
Whatever, y’all want 100hr sport CFIs go for it.
 
James331 said:
The requirements are not the same, instrument and night are a good example.

And for a CFI I’d want them the have much more than 100hrs, I’d want them to have waaaay more than just sport/PPL experience.
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James331 said:
Do 100hr fair weather sport CFIs work, yeah

Do higher time and experience CFIs work better, yup
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It's actually 150 hours. Still not a lot, but 50% more than 100, so that's something at least. I agree that training for flight by reference to instruments would be nice... assuming the airplane is equipped with instruments suitable for it. Day VFR aircraft sometimes are not. You're in a '46 Champ with no AI. Just a ball, airspeed, altimeter and a few engine instruments. How are you going to teach instrument flight? Night flight is not allowed for Sport Pilots, so again there's really no need to train for it -- and many of the suitable aircraft are not equipped for it.
MarkH said:
CFI-S certificate is easier to obtain by non-professional pilots, due to lower time requirements (100h TT) and medical requirements (does not require a CPL to obtain CFI-S, therefore never needs a Class 2).
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Z06_Mir said:
The fundamental skills might be the same but a 250 hour CFI is going to have a large experience bucket to pull from than a 100hr CFI-S, that's just common sense. A CFI-S has also never flown at night, much less had to demonstrate proficiency at night (the commercial requires some night solo work) or any instrument skills. If you instruct long enough you'll be called upon to demonstrate those skills even if your plans were to be day/VFR 100% of the time.

The CFI-S shouldn't exist as is. They should have to have the same requirements minus the IR and night work that one does for single-engine commercial. 250 hours, some longer cross-countries and more solo work.. Anyone who thinks a 100hr pilot is cut out to teach doesn't remember themselves at 100 hours.
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James331 said:
Whatever, y’all want 100hr sport CFIs go for it.
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150 hours, as noted above. Again, not saying 150 hours is a ton of experience, but it always helps to be as accurate and factual as one can.
 
If you can become a flight instructor at 25 hours, what’s the big deal about 150 vs 250?
 
Well, I just read this entire post and I find it very interesting.

I've seen pilots with 1000s of hours fly worse than some student pilots. And I've seen some low time pilots fly like they've been flying for 1000s of hours. But come on, seriously, more experience makes you a better pilot. It certainly doesn't make you a worse pilot. However, experience doesn't have anything to do with the fact that some people are better pilots than others, no matter what their experience. Everything in life has its exceptions.

And because 'generally', more experience makes you a better pilot, I would always want to learn from someone who has more experience in the area I am pursuing. Does that mean there might not be someone better at it than the person I chose? Of course not, but I have no way of measuring this other than experience.

Do you want to learn from the guy with 1000s of hours or the guy with 100 hours? Comparing (1) cfi-s to (3) cfi's who are chasing the airlines proves nothing. All low time CFI's have an extremely small bag of experience to pull from. And almost everyone knows, that almost EVERY CFI is only doing it to get more time to move on.

About 20 years ago, a Swiss pilot I was working with told me, "Aviation is done backwards in the US. In the US you have low time pilots teaching others how to be pilots. This is very dangerous. In Europe we get jobs and 1000s hours before we start teaching others to fly." Makes a lot of sense to me.

So I saw this quote from Capt Thorpe:

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Sport instruction has been working well for 14 years now. I get what you’re saying, but I haven’t yet seen any evidence that there’s a problem.
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And not really knowing anything about sport pilot CFIs, I googled "sport pilot accidents"

IT seems there's quite a few. Below is the first one that popped up in the list.

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/iss...ident-Review-Nothing-to-Celebrate_7228-1.html

PJ
 
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