Can somebody explain to me the general disdain for SP?

[valittu]

I've been reading on this site and others for a while and I've noticed a general disdain for the Sport Pilot certificate. Why do so many people often suggest and even insist that SP students go PPL? I'm aware of the limits of the ticket, but if those limits don't affect the student, why force more requirements down the throat of a person who will never fly at night, carry more than one passenger or fly anything other than their own LSA? Even if the person decides later to become a PPL, has he really lost anything but an SP checkride fee? Why is this thought of by so many pilots as being such a bad decision? What's behind the bias?

 

[RoscoeT]

What's behind the bias?

Most pilots like the idea of capability whether they need it or not. Witness all the rotting "traveling" and "family" airplanes that rarely get flown and never have more than 2 aboard. Nothing wrong at all with the SP if you know what kind of flying you want to do. And if that ever changes, guess what - you can upgrade your license.

 

[Skylane81E]

Because few students are ready at minimum hours, the planes all fly the same, and the extra requirements to get the private are minor hurdles if you can get a class 3.

So while the official requirements show 10 hours less for a SP, in reality most folks would need about 3 more hours to get a private. And once you have that private you can take more than one passenger, you can fly at night, you can go over 10,000...

I love SP, but think that if you can get the medical the small additional training to get the private is well worth it.


Now no matter what, use a "standard" CFI so you can count the instruction towards a private later if you so choose.

 

[AggieMike88]

If I had access to something like the Piper Sport for a reasonable price, I'd be very happy to help the owner put some hours on it.

Many of the LSA's I've seen come out in the last 3-4 years are nice looking aircraft.

As far as the license, again, it depends on the level of of flying you'll be doing.

 

[DaytonaLynn]

I did the sport as a way to get to fly with a passenger sooner than PPL.
I was able to fly my bride around just past 24 hours instruction.
Once we saw we would enjoy longer flights, I just continurped the training.

I would have been very happy at SP, but a move from Florida to Texas made me change my thought process.

I trained in a Piper Sport, what a great machine. I was saddened when I heard the partnership fell,apart and it was not going to be made any longer.

 

[LDJones]

Our LSA typically takes 50% more time to solo than our Cherokee 140. It's more demanding of good rudder skills, which ultimately makes better pilots, so we use that extra time to work on other skills that move them toward the private. Most opt to go that route.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Don't see any reason for it. If your saving costs you can have more freedom as a 15 hr student who has soloed and cross country and have a few airport sign offs than you get for the 25 hrs Sport pilot certificate.

Its sort of like going to prep school delaying going to college.

I guess I just do not see flying with those restrictions permanently. It seems like a distraction from flying.

I've been reading on this site and others for a while and I've noticed a general disdain for the Sport Pilot certificate. Why do so many people often suggest and even insist that SP students go PPL? I'm aware of the limits of the ticket, but if those limits don't affect the student, why force more requirements down the throat of a person who will never fly at night, carry more than one passenger or fly anything other than their own LSA? Even if the person decides later to become a PPL, has he really lost anything but an SP checkride fee? Why is this thought of by so many pilots as being such a bad decision? What's behind the bias?

 

[RoscoeT]

Our LSA typically takes 50% more time to solo than our Cherokee 140.

I'd imagine that's instructor aircraft bias, since beginning pilots don't know the difference, and will solo a J-3 as fast as a Cherokee. Then the Cherokee pilot will take as long to transition into the J-3 as it took the J-3 pilot to solo from zero. J-3 to Cherokee? One flight.

 

[Henning]

I've been reading on this site and others for a while and I've noticed a general disdain for the Sport Pilot certificate. Why do so many people often suggest and even insist that SP students go PPL? I'm aware of the limits of the ticket, but if those limits don't affect the student, why force more requirements down the throat of a person who will never fly at night, carry more than one passenger or fly anything other than their own LSA? Even if the person decides later to become a PPL, has he really lost anything but an SP checkride fee? Why is this thought of by so many pilots as being such a bad decision? What's behind the bias?

The limitations when not necessary. A PP (or CP or ATP) can allow their medical to lapse and still act as PIC of an LSA under the SP rules, an SP can never take advantage of the opportunities that a PP, CP, or ATP has regardless if they hold a Class I medical and have 12,000 hrs. After 100hrs of flying, the SP rated pilot will have spent basically the same $$$ as if they had gotten a PP. If one qualifies for the medical, there is no advantage to getting an SP rating.

 

[valittu]

I understand why you guys think the PPL is "better" if that's a fair assessment coming from PPL holders, but how is Sport Pilot not considered "on the way" to PPL, as opposed to being often misrepresented as some time wasting detour? I'm just not able to reconcile the root of this mischaracterization.

 

[Skylane81E]

I understand why you guys think the PPL is "better" if that's a fair assessment coming from PPL holders, but how is Sport Pilot not considered "on the way" to PPL, as opposed to being often misrepresented as some time wasting detour? I'm just not able to reconcile the root of this mischaracterization.

Check rides aren't free

 

[weilke]

I dont know where you get the feeling of 'disdain' from.

Go fly a LSA. Neat little buggers.

 

[Henning]

I understand why you guys think the PPL is "better" if that's a fair assessment coming from PPL holders, but how is Sport Pilot not considered "on the way" to PPL, as opposed to being often misrepresented as some time wasting detour? I'm just not able to reconcile the root of this mischaracterization.

It's just extra and unnecessary expense, basically at least $500 more to add SP as a "stepping stone". Depending on what and where you rent, you could get your PP in an old 150 cheaper than an SP.

 

[1600vw]

Its not so much the disdain for the SP certificate but the lack of respect of the SP himself.

 

[Skylane81E]

I understand why you guys think the PPL is "better" if that's a fair assessment coming from PPL holders, but how is Sport Pilot not considered "on the way" to PPL, as opposed to being often misrepresented as some time wasting detour? I'm just not able to reconcile the root of this mischaracterization.

Also, never said the private was better, but it is with out a doubt more useful

 

[Skylane81E]

Its not so much the disdain for the SP certificate but the lack of respect of the SP himself.

You really are a ray of sunshine aren't you

 

[Henning]

Its not so much the disdain for the SP certificate but the lack of respect of the SP himself.

There is that for sure, when I hear "It's easier", I know that here is a person setting themselves up to die. There is nothing 'easier' to flying under SP than PP or CP in the same craft and conditions, in fact the accidents with modern LSAs shows the inverse may actually be true. Someone quotes me in their sigfile, "If you cheap and lazy of thought and effort, aviation will kill you." Learning how to think and make decisions is the hardest thing about aviation and the most important to get right; this is independent of which certification and ratings you hold, regardless the process and consequences are the same. "I don't need to know..." should never be in a pilot's thought process much less lexicon.

 

[Henning]

I dont know where you get the feeling of 'disdain' from.

Go fly a LSA. Neat little buggers.

What prevents me from flying an LSA with an expired medical on my CP...? The SP rating and LSA category are two separate matters.

 

[valittu]

Is SP/PPL like the low wing/high wing thing? It is just about preference? I would think if a Sport Pilot is flying 100 hours a year and a Private Pilot is flying 100 hours a year, both in daytime VFR conditions, they're probably both flying at a similar level of competence in those conditions, no?

 

[Henning]

Is SP/PPL like the low wing/high wing thing? It is just about preference? I would think if a Sport Pilot is flying 100 hours a year and a Private Pilot is flying 100 hours a year, both in daytime VFR conditions, they're probably both flying at a similar level of competence in those conditions, no?

Yes, now, what happens when the weather goes to ****? The PP has options and at least has a modicum of a few hours training that can save their lives if they follow it. The SP who wanted the "easier" method is dead in a couple of minutes. If you think this impossible, you would be sorely mistaken. I have had the skies close in on me from CAVU which was forecast in my briefing half an hour earlier to continue all day on my route of flight close in to a solid deck of low ceilings that went from the Appalachians to Kansas in under 3 minutes. "Easy" and aviation are diametrically opposed if one desires a reasonable amount of safety.

 

[Skylane81E]

Is SP/PPL like the low wing/high wing thing? It is just about preference? I would think if a Sport Pilot is flying 100 hours a year and a Private Pilot is flying 100 hours a year, both in daytime VFR conditions, they're probably both flying at a similar level of competence in those conditions, no?

Yep, but as a private pilot I have greater priveleges,

I think you are mistaking "you've done the hard part" for distain. As a SP we know you can fly a plane

Take the night training and get the private, the cost is minimal, the rewards aren't.

 

[poadeleted21]

I've been reading on this site and others for a while and I've noticed a general disdain for the Sport Pilot certificate. Why do so many people often suggest and even insist that SP students go PPL? I'm aware of the limits of the ticket, but if those limits don't affect the student, why force more requirements down the throat of a person who will never fly at night, carry more than one passenger or fly anything other than their own LSA? Even if the person decides later to become a PPL, has he really lost anything but an SP checkride fee? Why is this thought of by so many pilots as being such a bad decision? What's behind the bias?

Because 99.99999999% of the time, there is no reason at all for an SPL if medicals aren't an issue. SPL was the FAAs way to get some rules around 2 seater fat ultralights and subsequently throw a bone to the no medical folks. PPLs don't want the planes and ultralight pilots don't want the regulations. The only happy people are the ones who can't get a medical, but I think it's the instant gratification they're enjoying and SPL will be bad for the no medical folks in the long run. i.e. now we have an entire industry selling $125,000 planes that will instantly go under if the 3rd class medical goes away for flying a Cessna 172.

 

[mondtster]

I dont know where you get the feeling of 'disdain' from.

I wondered the same thing. There are a few guys around here that went the Sport Pilot route and I don't think anyone views them as being a "lesser pilot" than anyone else who holds a private or higher rating.

 

[Skylane81E]

I wondered the same thing. There are a few guys around here that went the Sport Pilot route and I don't think anyone views them as being a "lesser pilot" than anyone else who holds a private or higher rating.

Not lesser, lower. My only altitude restriction is to stay out of class A so a SP truly is a "lower" pilot


All joking aside it is a good way to get into the air without medical hoops.

But if the medical isn't a hoop jumping exercise for you it really is a mater of "why not just get the private?"

 

[Henning]

Because 99.99999999% of the time, there is no reason at all for an SPL if medicals aren't an issue. SPL was the FAAs way to get some rules around 2 seater fat ultralights and subsequently throw a bone to the no medical folks. PPLs don't want the planes and ultralight pilots don't want the regulations. The only happy people are the ones who can't get a medical, but I think it's the instant gratification they're enjoying and SPL will be bad for the no medical folks in the long run. i.e. now we have an entire industry selling $125,000 planes that will instantly go under if the 3rd class medical goes away for flying a Cessna 172.

Exactly, SP and LSA had 2 motivations, first was to bring the FAA more in line with JAA for international conformity, the other was to bring the 2 seat ultralights which had no legal basis except for training and demo for sale flights under a legal authority because too many of them were being used for giving rides and getting passengers killed (FAA could care less if pilots kills themselves).

 

[LDJones]

I'd imagine that's instructor aircraft bias, since beginning pilots don't know the difference, and will solo a J-3 as fast as a Cherokee. Then the Cherokee pilot will take as long to transition into the J-3 as it took the J-3 pilot to solo from zero. J-3 to Cherokee? One flight.

How many students have you trained and soloed in a Jabiru Light Sport? Any solo in under 10 hours? I admit I'm only on my sixth so perhaps you can enlighten me.

I'd prefer to start everyone in a J-3 or Champ....just not practical these days.

 

[wabower]

I tried to get educated when the push of new planes started, mostly to get a good look at the equipment and ask the instructors for their impressions. I got the idea from them that the rules were different but the training time needed by the students was about the same and the perceived economies simply didn't materialize when the rubber hit the runway.

 

[valittu]

Yes, now, what happens when the weather goes to ****? The PP has options and at least has a modicum of a few hours training that can save their lives if they follow it. The SP who wanted the "easier" method is dead in a couple of minutes. If you think this impossible, you would be sorely mistaken. I have had the skies close in on me from CAVU which was forecast in my briefing half an hour earlier to continue all day on my route of flight close in to a solid deck of low ceilings that went from the Appalachians to Kansas in under 3 minutes. "Easy" and aviation are diametrically opposed if one desires a reasonable amount of safety.

Where is this "easy" argument coming from? I haven't heard one person say that the Sport Pilot certificate is easier. If anything, I would think it would be more difficult to learn to fly an aircraft in less time than required for a PPL. Say Sport Pilot around a bunch of Private Pilots and more than a few get defensive for some reason. I guess the FAA is to blame. I just wanted to know why.

The 3rd class medical exemption will only help already existing Pilots, right? Any chance they'd let us students get a license without one? I'd much rather fly a Cessna 150 than to wear the scarlet Sport Pilot "S"

 

[RJM62]

Yes, now, what happens when the weather goes to ****? The PP has options and at least has a modicum of a few hours training that can save their lives if they follow it. The SP who wanted the "easier" method is dead in a couple of minutes. If you think this impossible, you would be sorely mistaken. I have had the skies close in on me from CAVU which was forecast in my briefing half an hour earlier to continue all day on my route of flight close in to a solid deck of low ceilings that went from the Appalachians to Kansas in under 3 minutes. "Easy" and aviation are diametrically opposed if one desires a reasonable amount of safety.

SP training actually does require some time under the hood for most privileges (I think for any aircraft with a Vh greater than 87 knots, but I won't swear to it). Personally, I think it's also a good idea to have at least an hour or two of night training, also for emergency familiarization reasons.

-Rich

 

[Henning]

Where is this "easy" argument coming from? I haven't heard one person say that the Sport Pilot certificate is easier. If anything, I would think it would be more difficult to learn to fly an aircraft in less time than required for a PPL. Say Sport Pilot around a bunch of Private Pilots and more than a few get defensive for some reason. I guess the FAA is to blame. I just wanted to know why.

The 3rd class medical exemption will only help already existing Pilots, right? Any chance they'd let us students get a license without one? I'd much rather fly a Cessna 150 than to wear the scarlet Sport Pilot "S"

I have often seen people advocating the they intend to go SP because it's "easier to get", in fact I believe the is the position of KYCoalminer in the most recent thread as well. There seems to be a misconception that because the minimum time is 25hrs vs 40hrs that SP is an easier and cheaper way to go. I have not seen where either is true.

The medical exemption applies to anyone flying an LSA rules plane that hasn't been denied a medical.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Because the tasks that the SP stuff skips, YOU NEED.

For example, Sure you're dont plan on flying at night, but chit happens and I'm sure you will end up running into night at some point, wouldnt it be nice to have a little training on it?

Secondly, it takes a certain amount of time to master the aircraft, national average is around 60hrs, SP aint special, its still a plane, not many people finish in the minimum hours anyways.

AND lastly, you're saying the selling point is that the SP only requires the BARE LEGAL MINIMUM amount of training to fly? ... and you think that's a good thing eh??

 

[Tristar]

This is just what I've seen so take what you like and leave the rest. Sport pilot was mainly designed for people that can't get a medical and I believe gave people a cheaper option for getting their license with restrictions. I personally don't like the fact that when I taught sport that I left out night and hood work. I believe at some point you would encounter it by accident and the training would help. Yea it may happen years down the road or tomorrow and you wont remember it all but the fact that you got something leaves the hope that you wont kill yourself. I do not teach bare minimums, I teach according to what that student needs. If he gets it right at minimums, thats fine, if not, that happens too. I have not had a student finish right at sport pilot minimums. Part of the reason is getting to our practice area takes up half the flight. I believe learning to land a sport pilot aircraft takes more practice therefor my students did not always solo the skycatcher at the same rate as the skyhawks. I admit myself that it's a touchy airplane to land especially in wind. The good thing is half of the flight training, up to solo, is the same training you'd get for private pilot so you have that long to figure out which is best for your situation. I do not agree with the training that they ask me to leave out and I do not appreciate the students that ask me to push limits because they're trying to save a dime. I went through college, I get the money thing. Flying is not cheap. I have had these students because someone told them they could get this new cheap certificate. All in all though I believe this was another way for the FAA to help that situation out.

One reason you might get a smug face when you talk about sport pilot is the fact of the no medical thing. I think a lot of it is trust issues. Getting a medical exam is another way of someone checking on you to make sure you're ok. I'm not saying the system is always right or that it's the easiest. It's not. In fact, it's a pain in the butt a lot to the point that many people lie on their applications but the fact that they do it is to prove a point. ..they're allowed to fly according to the government who makes these rules. If you're sport, you could have a heart attack today and no one in the aviation industry is ever going to find out about it until something happens to you in the air. Everyone self medicates each time you fly, its just scarier to the private pilot industry. If you have a heart attack and crash into their house with their kids, there was never a medical examiner that said you probably shouldn't be flying. ...its in truth, you're scary. Now like I said, take it with a grain of salt, that's just what I get from people I've talked to.

Please keep in mind that I have never tried to talk someone out of a sport but it is true what they say that most of the time it's just worth it to go for the private pilot cert as long as your medical isn't holding you back. I think the training is worth it. If you are thinking to go sport and maybe private later, make sure you get your initial training with a private pilot capable instructor, keep in mind you'll have to do the training you've missed and any remedial training you might have forgotten since the end of your sport to the beginning of your private pilot upgrade. You'll need to do another written exam and another checkride. All of this is easily running $1100ish and possibly higher depending on many factors. Checkride and a written exam here will cost you $500 alone. If you like the sport and all you ever want to do is sport privileges, go for it...seriously. I'd just really consider getting the extra few hours of night and a little hood work. You never know when you'll get "get there itis" or look down to get a pen you dropped only to look up and see you've flown into a cloud.

 

[dmspilot]

Even if the person decides later to become a PPL, has he really lost anything but an SP checkride fee?

Not true. If you get an SP from a flight instructor with a sport pilot rating, your SP time is worthless for meeting the requirements of a PPL.

 

[frfly172]

Lsa,s are neat and most of the ls pilots have a passion for flying like all others ,they just choose to only fly in good weather and in the day.When you think of it ,that can be a lot of fun.there could be a little bit of conceit in the pilot ranks towards the ls pilot.I was working towards a ls instructors rating but could not justify it as most students are encouraged to go ppl.I attend the light sport expo in Fla every year and think the planes and people associated with Lsas are a lot of fun.jmo

 

[Geico266]

I understand why you guys think the PPL is "better" if that's a fair assessment coming from PPL holders, but how is Sport Pilot not considered "on the way" to PPL, as opposed to being often misrepresented as some time wasting detour? I'm just not able to reconcile the root of this mischaracterization.

Old school bias.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Real pilots have medicals and instrument ratings. It's not fair that those people flying LSAs don't have to get a medical. And only losers don't get their instrument ticket.

 

[1600vw]

Real pilots have medicals and instrument ratings. It's not fair that those people flying LSAs don't have to get a medical. And only losers don't get their instrument ticket.

Thank you for making my point..No respect for the SP.

 

[deltafox]

An interesting discussion. I have found bias in most endeavors, aviation is no exception and justification for bias is usually based on ignorance.

I own a PiperSport. I have a 2nd class medical. I fly for fun.

I no longer wish to fly IFR. Single pilot IFR in a small plane is work. Staying current is costly. In all my years of flying GA I seldom took more than a single passenger. When flying GA I seldom went above 10K'.

I like flying a glass panel. I like having an autopilot coupled to the GPS. I like having XM weather. My wife (and most other passengers) like having a BRS.

I really like using MOGAS and burning 5 gal/hr.

If you think SP is less safe I would be very interested in the facts that support your assumption.

 

[JetHikingGypsy]

Thanks for this thread...I've been considering the options of getting my SP vs my PP and have been getting the mixed reviews from people.

 

[frfly172]

Real pilots have medicals and instrument ratings. It's not fair that those people flying LSAs don't have to get a medical. And only losers don't get their instrument ticket.

What a statement even if your joking from a person flying under the light sport rules.