Can owner install different fire extinguisher bracket?

Sinistar

Sinistar

En-Route
Joined
Sep 9, 2016
Messages
3,734
Display Name
Display name:
Brad
That old chemical fire extinguisher from 1972 was bothering us :eek:so i bought a newer Halon one instead. The new one is a bit larger diameter but still fits the old bracket...but its pretty snug. And more importantly this one weighs more by almost 2lbs. So I would prefer to use the new bracket which has two bands, especially for any nasty turbulence.

So can the owner install the bracket? I can reuse two screws but need to drill 2 more.

I suspect someone with IA will be required so maybe its best to use the old bracket until our A&P can do it. It will need a new W&B too i guess. Maybe im answering my own question. But this also seems to fall under the category of a simple assembly and of a more owner maintenance like category.
 
My answer is yes you can. I have zero information to back that up with so stand by for something better. I didn't have one installed when I bought my plane. Purchased one from spruce and installed it. My shop had no issue at annual.
 
If it is not in the logbook, it never happened.
If an A&P wants in the book, let them put it there.
 
I fabricated an aluminum fire extinguisher bracket holder and attached it to the front front tubular steel 'legs' of the front left seat in my 172 using four Adel clamps. It's easily removed without any trace of the installation, so it's not permanently installed. That was in 2002, and it's been through 16 annual inspections without any comments.

I've practiced unlatching it with one hand.

Bracket%20and%20Seat%20Mounting%20LoRes_zpsuezgzzng.jpg
 
Sinistar said:
So can the owner install the bracket? I
Click to expand...
Per the FARs... no. But it's solely your call as owner whether to follow them. Logbook sign off and empty weight-balance/equipment list update by A&P to keep you square. FYI: some extinguishers are not recommended for aviation use.
 
Depends, I'd imagine a simple swap of brackets that say use the same two screws would be considered basic maintaince.

"Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system. Once again, this should be regarded as a safety-of-flight issue that can affect your well-being. The seats are specifically designed. Don't modify them to make them stronger or more rigid. Replacement seats or seat parts must be of an approved design for your make and model airplane."

Or

"Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations. You are permitted to remove and replace nonstructural standard fasteners, which also includes the removal and replacement of screws or rivets used to attach fasteners. Remember that you must use the approved fasteners, screws, and rivets for your airplane. If you are one of those mechanically gifted people, have at it: drive those rivets. But if you like to put a square peg in a round hole, this may be a complex task for you. Leave it to the professionals."


I replaced my dry chem with a aviation halon, though the brackets were basically the exact same, it said in the documents that came with the halon that it needed to be installed with the new bracket it came with, plus the new one looked better anyways ;)
 
By rule, any added equipment by the owner/operator, must be able to be removed or installed with out the usage of tools. example iPad yoke mounts
and they require no entries for return to service.
thus, the case in point is in fact illegal.
 
Tom-D said:
By rule, any added equipment by the owner/operator, must be able to be removed or installed with out the usage of tools. example iPad yoke mounts
and they require no entries for return to service.
thus, the case in point is in fact illegal.
Click to expand...

He wasn't adding it, he was replacing a existing one, if he swaps a 2.5lb for a 2.5lb extinguisher, with the same mounting bolt arrangement for the new bracket how is that not covered under preventive mx?
 
James331 said:
He wasn't adding it, he was replacing a existing one, if he swaps a 2.5lb for a 2.5lb extinguisher, with the same mounting bolt arrangement for the new bracket how is that not covered under preventive mx?
Click to expand...
43-A (c ) 1-31 is it there?
Is he an A&P making a minor modification?
or
Is he an owner adding some thing?
 
Tom-D said:
43-A (c ) 1-31 is it there?
Is he an A&P making a minor modification?
or
Is he an owner adding some thing?
Click to expand...

He's not adding anything, he's replacing/servicing something, no complex disassembly, nor any major systems involved.

I think I already quoted the relevant aspects of the FAR.
 
James331 said:
He's not adding anything, he's replacing/servicing something, no complex disassembly, nor any major systems involved.

I think I already quoted the relevant aspects of the FAR.
Click to expand...
Except he is drilling a couple of new holes. Depending on where the holes are, if it is in some sort of critical structure, it might be an issue. Personally, I would just install it and be done with it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Except he is drilling a couple of new holes. Depending on where the holes are, if it is in some sort of critical structure, it might be an issue. Personally, I would just install it and be done with it.
Click to expand...

I missed the part about the drill, meh yeah, not sure I'd go that route.

Strange too, in my experience the holes on the brackets are all normally uniform enough for the same sized extinguishers.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Except he is drilling a couple of new holes. Depending on where the holes are, if it is in some sort of critical structure, it might be an issue. Personally, I would just install it and be done with it.
Click to expand...

I believe the term “hangar fairy” applies.

I would try to drill holes in or otherwise modify the bracket first if possible.
 
James331 said:
was replacing a existing one
Click to expand...
FYI: the feds define "replacement" as removing one item and installing a like item. In this case, it's a different extinguisher and weighs 2lbs more which puts it in the minor alteration category.
 
Thank God that the FAA protects us from replacing a dry chemical extinguisher with Halon. This really makes me wish I owned a type certificated aircraft.

Dear O.P. stick it in place with duct tape. The FAA will be down with that.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: the feds define "replacement" as removing one item and installing a like item. In this case, it's a different extinguisher and weighs 2lbs more which puts it in the minor alteration category.
Click to expand...

Doubt the different agent matters, the weight and drill on the other hand.
 
James331 said:
He's not adding anything, he's replacing/servicing something, no complex disassembly, nor any major systems involved.

I think I already quoted the relevant aspects of the FAR.
Click to expand...


And what section allows him to replace "something" I think calling a fire extinguisher a fastener is a stretch. You can replace fasteners, not what they fasten.

Bob
 
You can replace tires, bearings, oil, seat fabric, lights etc.

No major systems, no major assembly, no big deal.

But I would not change the size or drill holes in the OPs case
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: the feds define "replacement" as removing one item and installing a like item. In this case, it's a different extinguisher and weighs 2lbs more which puts it in the minor alteration category.
Click to expand...
Can owners do minor alterations?
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: the feds define "replacement" as removing one item and installing a like item. In this case, it's a different extinguisher and weighs 2lbs more which puts it in the minor alteration category.
Click to expand...
Like I've said,If the A&P wants an entry, let them make it. that's all it requires to make this legal, but the owner/operator can't do it in this case.
 
James331 said:
You can replace tires, bearings, oil, seat fabric, lights etc.

No major systems, no major assembly, no big deal.

But I would not change the size or drill holes in the OPs case
Click to expand...


its really simple, you can do the 31 operations listed in the appendix. I don't see replacing a fire extinguisher bracket in that list.

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
its really simple, you can do the 31 operations listed in the appendix. I don't see replacing a fire extinguisher bracket in that list.

bob
Click to expand...

#26 replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.

He is replacing or adjusting fastners securing fire extinguisher, clearly they are non structural.
 
Sinistar said:
That old chemical fire extinguisher from 1972 was bothering us :eek:so i bought a newer Halon one instead. The new one is a bit larger diameter but still fits the old bracket...but its pretty snug. And more importantly this one weighs more by almost 2lbs. So I would prefer to use the new bracket which has two bands, especially for any nasty turbulence.

So can the owner install the bracket? I can reuse two screws but need to drill 2 more.

I suspect someone with IA will be required so maybe its best to use the old bracket until our A&P can do it. It will need a new W&B too i guess. Maybe im answering my own question. But this also seems to fall under the category of a simple assembly and of a more owner maintenance like category.
Click to expand...

It depends where it is being installed and how. The legal route would be to have a mech install it as a minor mod (assuming it isn't going onto the spar or some other primary structure).
 
teejayevans said:
#26 replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.

He is replacing or adjusting fastners securing fire extinguisher, clearly they are non structural.
Click to expand...
Except according to the original post, he needs to drill two new holes. What I am not sure of is if those holes would be in something that is considered structural. So it really isn’t clearly non structural.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Except according to the original post, he needs to drill two new holes. What I am not sure of is if those holes would be in something that is considered structural. So it really isn’t clearly non structural.
Click to expand...

That.

Removing and replacing a like bracket and extinguisher using the same mounting holes, that's preventive, I did it myself I would be comfy standing behind it with a fed.

But when you start using a larger enxtinigusher and changing the mounting by drilling holes, that IMO goes from owner preventive MX to call your friendly local AP.
 
JAWS said:
It depends where it is being installed and how. The legal route would be to have a mech install it as a minor mod (assuming it isn't going onto the spar or some other primary structure).
Click to expand...
When an A&P makes an entry in the maintenance record, the FAA see's that as if he did the job.
 
Tom-D said:
When an A&P makes an entry in the maintenance record, the FAA see's that as if he did the job.
Click to expand...

I am very careful with what I put my name to, just for that reason.
 
James331 said:
That.

Removing and replacing a like bracket and extinguisher using the same mounting holes, that's preventive, I did it myself I would be comfy standing behind it with a fed.

But when you start using a larger enxtinigusher and changing the mounting by drilling holes, that IMO goes from owner preventive MX to call your friendly local AP.
Click to expand...

Which is why in an earlier post I said he should modify the bracket instead, he can drill, weld, bend as necessary.
 
Not one post arguing about the needed change to the W&B from the heavier extinguisher?
 
OP realized that in first post.
 
teejayevans said:
Which is why in an earlier post I said he should modify the bracket instead, he can drill, weld, bend as necessary.
Click to expand...

Or just send the oversized one back and get the correct one with what is likely a plug and play bracket
 
If adding the new extinguisher improves the safety of your airplane? That should be the driving force, not some arbitrary, silly restriction by an antiquated government agency. Nobody will scrutinize your log books to try to determime whether your extinguisher bracket has 2 screws or 4, what type of extinguishing agent it uses, or whether it weighs 1# or 2#.
 
Tom-D said:
They do not stop you from replacing any thing.. but they do have rules for doing the maintenance.
Click to expand...
You are right. The FAA isn't totally preventing you from doing it - they are just making it as stupid and expensive as possible.

35 posts and counting about a stupid simple thing like punching two holes in the baggage floor sheet metal.
 
An extinguisher that the pilot can’t reach and easily release while flying isn’t very useful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top