Can I log Co-Pilot Time?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

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i think I am going to get an opprtunity to sit in the right seat of a C47. Is there a way to log Co-pilot time? I am not expecting to use the time for any purpose beyond looking cool in the logbook.

It might be that I could log it as dual received, but I am not assuming the pilot is a CFI or will be willing to log it as instruction.
 
You can log anything you want. If you're not using it for any rating, who cares?
 
As an ego booster, I'll second it, LOG IT! :)
 
Sorry, unless it's dual received with a CFI, as a PP ASEL, unless you want to use you logbook as a scrapbook or diary, no.
 
The best part is that since the c47 has two engines, you can log it as double time!
 
Is then dude in the left seat a CFI? I'd wager he likley is, just log it as dual if so
 
Isn't a C-47 required two man crew? If you have ME rating, you can count it as SIC. That's how I logged 30 hours in a B-25 in the 80s. Fortunately, the pilot was an airline type and actually let me fly...including take-offs and landings.
 
I have some "scrapbook" time in a B787 sim. That was some fun flying time.
 
N3368K said:
Isn't a C-47 required two man crew? If you have ME rating, you can count it as SIC. That's how I logged 30 hours in a B-25 in the 80s. Fortunately, the pilot was an airline type and actually let me fly...including take-offs and landings.
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Before you can log SIC in a two pilot required airplane, you have to have completed the required 61.55 training first.

So, the only way that he could legally fly and log the time is dual instruction.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Before you can log SIC in a two pilot required airplane, you have to have completed the required 61.55 training first.

So, the only way that he could legally fly and log the time is dual instruction.
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According to 61.55, dual instruction is not required...but you do need to log certain events...
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may serve as a second-in-command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second-in-command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:

(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—

(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.

(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.

(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.

(iv) Flight manual.

(v) Placards and markings.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—

(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

(iii) Crew resource management training.
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You can also log SIC while initially accomplishing these events...
(h) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:

(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and

(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
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MauleSkinner said:
According to 61.55, dual instruction is not required...but you do need to log certain events...
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I think it is a matter of semantics. Whether the guy in the left seat is an MEI or an ATP type rated in the aircraft, I think most folks consider that 'instruction'.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think it is a matter of semantics. Whether the guy in the left seat is an MEI or an ATP type rated in the aircraft, I think most folks consider that 'instruction'.
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It very likely will work that way in the OP's case, but the only "training" that has to happen is the CRM part.

The FAA is all about semantics. ;)
 
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I did get some of my initial B-25 time signed off as dual while learning systems and how to fly it.
 
MBDiagMan said:
i think I am going to get an opprtunity to sit in the right seat of a C47. Is there a way to log Co-pilot time? I am not expecting to use the time for any purpose beyond looking cool in the logbook.

It might be that I could log it as dual received, but I am not assuming the pilot is a CFI or will be willing to log it as instruction.
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14 CFR 61.51 said:
§61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
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Note the "or" at the end of (1). That means *either* (1) *or* (2) is required to be able to log SIC time.

So, you need category (Airplane) and class (Multi-Engine Land). Are you multi-engine rated? Doesn't look like it according to your signature. So, no go on logging it unless it's dual received.
 
James331 said:
Why wouldn't he, I mean it's no skin of his back
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i don't know how others feel, so I don't assume. He might be one of those silly people who don't sign off instruction unless he's actually giving instruction. I also don't know what contractual, operational or other limitations might be at work that the pilot can choose to follow or disregard.
 
As has been noted a zillion times, you can log whatever you want. Or, not bother to log whatever you want.

If you aren't using it for currency or a rating, FAA rules aren't relevant.
 
Thanks for the replies. They made me think about it. Iexpect that he will be willing to log it as duel, but if not I will put it in my logbook for posterity.
 
I have about 10 minutes right seat C-47 time. I also have a spreadsheet where I log cool flights I can't officially use the time for.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for the replies. They made me think about it. Iexpect that he will be willing to log it as duel, but if not I will put it in my logbook for posterity.
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Yup that what I would do. I mean, what if you got a P-51 ride, you wouldn't want that in your logbook? Same with the Gooney bird.
 
mscard88 said:
Yup that what I would do. I mean, what if you got a P-51 ride, you wouldn't want that in your logbook? Same with the Gooney bird.
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What I started doing with the unique, not officially loggable experiences is put them in the logbook with parentheses around the time entry. That serves as a reminder not to tally the entry when I finish he page. In other words, it gets entered into the logbook, but I don't count the time.

I just did that a couple months ago when I got to fly the L-1011 sim.
 
Yes. You can log it as "Co-pilot time". But you cant log it as PIC, SIC or Total Time or anything else. But you can log it as Co-pilot time.

I have one of those flights. I flew, for 1/2 hour, a Beech P58 Baron. The owner was in the right seat giving me instruction, though he wasn't current multi instructor (he did know how to fly his plane though). It was a great flight. He didnt sign my logbook and I cant count it towards anything, but I did fly the plane. And I logged it.
 
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I'd definitely try to log it as dual if possible. That will accomplish the most useful logging overall, I'm guessing.

N3368K said:
I did get some of my initial B-25 time signed off as dual while learning systems and how to fly it.
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B-25 is the only plane that's on my bucket list. May not ever get there, but it's on it.
 
mscard88 said:
Yup that what I would do. I mean, what if you got a P-51 ride, you wouldn't want that in your logbook?
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I have P-51 time in my logbook. Well, I was given a sticker for dual received, but even if it hadn't been dual, I would have logged it as PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i) as sole manipulator of an aircraft for which I was rated. Who doesn't have ASEL on their ticket? (I know some don't, but not many!)

coloradobluesky said:
Yes. You can log it as "Co-pilot time". But you cant log it as PIC, SIC or Total Time or anything else. But you can log it as Co-pilot time.
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Please provide a reference.

Ah, forget it, I'll save you the trouble. There is no such thing as "Co-pilot time" in FAR 61.51, Pilot Logbooks. As I stated, if the OP is AMEL rated he can log it under 61.51(f)(2). If not, and the other pilot is a qualified CFI who signs his logbook, it's dual. Otherwise, it's not loggable for any useful purpose.
 
Hey, I logged my flight in a Ford Tri-motor. I logged it only for the sole purpose of a memorable flight, and a discussion point for some time further in my future career. Although I was not in the right seat I was however in the first seat behind the co-pilot and was watching everything that was done very intently while I videoed the flight.
 
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