can I find out why a (commercial) flight was cancelled?

[Wingsofglass]

I'm sure I'm alone in this belief, but here I go:

/Rant on

It's a major league PITA for all involved. And it's more of a pain for them than it is for you, the passenger.

/Rant off

And here is where your post loses all credibility. Everyone at the airline still gets paid, sometimes overtime and gets to go home at the end of their shift. In the meantime, I’m spending an extra $300 on a hotel I didn’t want, after spending $1,200 on a last minute coach seat for a flight that cancelled for “weather” a 1,000 miles away. I miss a day of work, which means lost compensation, and don’t see my family for a night. And in exchange for all this, the airline offers me nothing because it was “weather.” Yeah you are right, that’s way more of a PITA for the airline.

I do agree with you that screening at a gate agent accomplishes nothing and is just mean.

 

[RyanB]

Its so much fun to watch a bunch of GA pilots make crap up about how airlines work, and then proceed to ignore the guys who have 121 experience and know how it works.

Care to offer any corrective information?

 

[jordane93]

And here is where your post loses all credibility. Everyone at the airline still gets paid, sometimes overtime and gets to go home at the end of their shift. In the meantime, I’m spending an extra $300 on a hotel I didn’t want, after spending $1,200 on a last minute coach seat for a flight that cancelled for “weather” a 1,000 miles away. I miss a day of work, which means lost compensation, and don’t see my family for a night. And in exchange for all this, the airline offers me nothing because it was “weather.” Yeah you are right, that’s way more of a PITA for the airline.

I do agree with you that screening at a gate agent accomplishes nothing and is just mean.

You do know that weather doesn’t have to be right over the field to cause delays right? Are you instrument rated? We’ve had systems over 300 miles away from the airport that clog up arrivals.

“But my brother said it’s sunny in New York!! Why are we delayed”

I want to get home as much as you do.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

You do know that weather doesn’t have to be right over the field to cause delays right? Are you instrument rated? We’ve had systems over 300 miles away from the airport that clog up arrivals.

“But my brother said it’s sunny in New York!! Why are we delayed”

I want to get home as much as you do.

So, do you feel that an airline's competence in being able to schedule and manage both aluminum and flesh assets doesn't play a strong role in how far a "weather event" cascades to other airports and passengers?

It's a complex problem, and I can't imagine that some organizations aren't better equipped and structured than others to manage it.

 

[Ravioli]

Everyone at the airline still gets paid, sometimes overtime and gets to go home at the end of their shift.

None of the on-board employees get anywhere before you. Sometimes even much later than you since they reroute the revenue passengers first. Also, if the rest of their trip gets blown they are stuck deadheading from an unexpected location.

I fully expect to get stranded somewhere 3 or 4 times a year. Must be the difference between frequent flying vs frequent whining.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Must be the difference between frequent flying vs frequent whining.

Feeling a bit hostile today, perhaps???

 

[midwestpa24]

So, do you feel that an airline's competence in being able to schedule and manage both aluminum and flesh assets doesn't play a strong role in how far a "weather event" cascades to other airports and passengers?

It's a complex problem, and I can't imagine that some organizations aren't better equipped and structured than others to manage it.

It is a complex problem. You think you can do a better job? Delays and cancellations cost airlines tons of money, and are avoided at all costs. They have some of the best planners they can. Have you ever been in one of their operations centers? Until you've been behind the scenes, don't be too quick to judge. As its already been said, its not like the airlines want to cancel your flight. There is no motivation for them to cancel your flight. Try to manage the movements of thousands of aircraft, tens of thousands of crew members, and hundreds of thousands of passengers around the world, and see how you do.

And it isn't just an American or United or Delta problem, every airline experiences delays, cancellations and frustrations. S*** happens.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

So, do you feel that an airline's competence in being able to schedule and manage both aluminum and flesh assets doesn't play a strong role in how far a "weather event" cascades to other airports and passengers?

It's a complex problem, and I can't imagine that some organizations aren't better equipped and structured than others to manage it.

Most of the basis for recovery comes from excess capacity in the system. That means having under utilized gates, crew and equipment to absorb the interruption. That excess is ridiculously expensive to own.

The vast majority of the traveling public fly infrequently and shop by price, schedule and brand loyalty. In that order ...
Brand loyalty is not even on the list for many.

The solution you see is obviously an easy way to mitigate the situation but it is a cost the market does not support.

 

[Wingsofglass]

None of the on-board employees get anywhere before you. Sometimes even much later than you since they reroute the revenue passengers first. Also, if the rest of their trip gets blown they are stuck deadheading from an unexpected location.

I fully expect to get stranded somewhere 3 or 4 times a year. Must be the difference between frequent flying vs frequent whining.

But the on-board employees are most likely getting paid and in no case are they paying customers. I am instrument rated and proud of it, thank you for asking. And I have no issues when my flight is cancelled because weather is in or around the terminal area. And I understand enroute weather that causes diversions will also screw with flow and I accept that. I've even been known to flight plan a commercial flight and change my ticket a day or two before because the weather looks iffy and I'm worried about delays. What bothers me is when I have a flight from say Salt Lake City to Minneapolis and not a cloud in the sky between the two but my flight is three hours late arriving because there is weather in Dallas and the crew times out and the flight gets cancelled because of weather and I'm left holding the bag and bearing all the financial burden for a deliberate business decision made by an airline. Is that whining?

As an instrument rated pilot, I've learned a little about weather and I know a line of thunderstorms doesn't appear out of nowhere with no warning. So the airline had at least a 24 hours notice that there was a good chance Dallas was going to have some issues. Yet they chose that aircraft with that crew and no alternative for my flight knowing full well there was a fairly low likelihood it was going to work out. I didn't get a discount on my ticket though. When I purchased it, the agent didn't say we're only charging you 60% because that's the chance this thing is going to get you there when we say it will. I paid a full last minute coach price for my middle seat ticket (only seats left) and the airline just says too bad, it was weather go find a hotel and we'll see if we can squeeze you in two days from now. And no, we won't pay for you to fly home sooner on another airline, it was weather.

 

[Wingsofglass]

And BTW, in the scenario outlined above, if the airline just said "Sorry, we cut it too close but we have no choice because most of our customers would rather save a dollar than arrive on time, let us cover your costs.", I'd cease all whining.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

And BTW, in the scenario outlined above, if the airline just said "Sorry, we cut it too close but we have no choice because most of our customers would rather save a dollar than arrive on time, let us cover your costs.", I'd cease all whining.

Well. At least you recognize you are whining.
I do not think you are being reasonable. Fact is there is not another plane to be routed to cover your flight days in advance.

 

[RyanB]

What bothers me is when I have a flight from say Salt Lake City to Minneapolis and not a cloud in the sky between the two but my flight is three hours late arriving because there is weather in Dallas and the crew times out and the flight gets cancelled because of weather and I'm left holding the bag and bearing all the financial burden for a deliberate business decision made by an airline. Is that whining?

You may want to entertain the idea of purchasing travelers insurance next time.

 

[denverpilot]

Airlines made the mistake of giving any perks whatsoever if travel goes wrong. You won’t find it in any other type of travel. You’ll get a refund and a “maybe the train will run tomorrow”.

Doesn’t matter if it’s equipment, people, weather. The bus doesn’t show up, you get whatever you had when you arrived.

It’s not the 60s and people begged for deregulation. They got it.

I don’t think they could see that being nice to customers who paid a lot more back in the day, would turn into a modern entitlement with lower margins and huge competition.

Back when I traveled weekly or more, I learned that the system is constantly broken and rearranging itself all day every day. Because our schedule and where we needed to be might change constantly we were mandated to fly on refundable tickets at all times and that wasn’t cheap even in the 90s. I had a number of “reroutes” by my boss as I hit a hub. He knew where we were and what time we would get there and rerouted us as needed.

“You’re getting on a flight to Oakland now, Tom is gearing up to leave here in two hours and go to your customer. You’re going to Chevron in Walnut Hills. Ticket is already changed, head to the gate and grab the new one.”

But even with top tier tickets, crap happens. We didn’t get food vouchers or hotel discounts, we just schlepped our butts to the cab stand after figuring out what hotel we were going to stay at.

Then airlines started doing the voucher thing and it was a mistake. Now people whine when they say “weather” to avoid coughing those up. Part of it nowadays is being much more trapped in the terminals than pre-TSA needing an extra hour to fondle your junk. I get the food thing.

We used to leave, catch a cab to a real lunch and be back 30 minutes before departure and be just fine back then, with all carry-ons. Even two or three of them to haul $40K worth of test gear around with us and tools.

But yeah. Airplanes don’t always go. Just like any other transportation mode. I’ve been stranded in all sorts of cities. The only place you were never stranded was in a hub. And we always had refunded money in a pile somewhere at every airline back then. Want to switch, no biggie. Walk over and switch. But the tickets weren’t $99 specials to Orlando either.

 

[Wingsofglass]

You may want to entertain the idea of purchasing travelers insurance next time.

Total ripoff. Doesn't pay for the scenario I just outlined. I'm not being unreasonable in the scenario I outlined. No weather is anywhere near my route of flight, I should be compensated for the cancelled flight as if it were a mechanical. At least when I pay a huge price for a last minute ticket. For a super cheap discount ticket, probably not.

 

[Ravioli]

No weather is anywhere near my route of flight, I should be compensated for the cancelled flight as if it were a mechanical. At least when I pay a huge price for a last minute ticket.

Please to define "last minute." Day, Week, less than 14 days, etc. I doubt you show up at the counter and pay full fare to get on the next ride out, only to find it cancelled. They know all too well what's going on for the next few hours.

 

[jordane93]

So, do you feel that an airline's competence in being able to schedule and manage both aluminum and flesh assets doesn't play a strong role in how far a "weather event" cascades to other airports and passengers?

It's a complex problem, and I can't imagine that some organizations aren't better equipped and structured than others to manage it.

When there’s a forecasted IROP our company strongly encourages crew members to commute in early, they make crew schedulers come in on their day off to help out the operation, and base management is often in ops until midnight the day before and after. We have X amount of reserves and the usually get dried up when weather hits. Now if these crew members are stuck at an outstation, that makes things even more difficult as far as where we’re going to send them to cover which flight. When ATC issues ground stops, the airline will strategically choose which flights they want to delay and/or cancel. Sorry, if you’re on a RJ going to Fargo, you’ll most likely get delayed or canceled. It’s better to cancel 50 pax than 150.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Total ripoff. Doesn't pay for the scenario I just outlined. I'm not being unreasonable in the scenario I outlined. No weather is anywhere near my route of flight, I should be compensated for the cancelled flight as if it were a mechanical. At least when I pay a huge price for a last minute ticket. For a super cheap discount ticket, probably not.

To each their own.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

When there’s a forecasted IROP our company strongly encourages crew members to commute in early, they make crew schedulers come in on their day off to help out the operation, and base management is often in ops until midnight the day before and after. We have X amount of reserves and the usually get dried up when weather hits. Now if these crew members are stuck at an outstation, that makes things even more difficult as far as where we’re going to send them to cover which flight. When ATC issues ground stops, the airline will strategically choose which flights they want to delay and/or cancel. Sorry, if you’re on a RJ going to Fargo, you’ll most likely get delayed or canceled. It’s better to cancel 50 pax than 150.

Exactly. It's a tough problem. I work in industries with other tough problems, too.

And the one thing I always observe is there are pockets of excellence and incompetence, as well as variation across competitors.

If I hear "Trust us, we are doing it right, there is no room for improvement, so suck it up and stop whining" <not your comment>, I'm not sold.

(Or I can look up a crew scheduling "opportunities" thread on one of the professional forums. )

As a 1K flyer with 30 plus years carrying a suitcase on business, I've played the 60 minute delay and repeat until the midnight cancellation game often enough. Mostly good travel with widely scattered storms of incompetence and poor communication.

 

[Larry in TN]

American Eagle has a knack for cancelling flights with a lot of open seats for weather and mechanical. Funny how the full flights don't have that problem.

Every airline does that.

If ATC restrictions require you to cancel 30% of your schedule, do you cancel the flights with the most passengers while the ones with the least operate? That would result in more people being stranded.

Airlines cancel the flights which have the overall least impact. That's generally the smaller airplanes and the flights with the fewest passengers though crew/aircraft positioning, available reroute options, and international connections are also considered.

 

[EdFred]

De-de-regulation needs to happen.

*opens gas can*
*tosses on fire*

 

[jordane93]

Exactly. It's a tough problem. I work in industries with other tough problems, too.

And the one thing I always observe is there are pockets of excellence and incompetence, as well as variation across competitors.

If I hear "Trust us, we are doing it right, there is no room for improvement, so suck it up and stop whining" <not your comment>, I'm not sold.

(Or I can look up a crew scheduling "opportunities" thread on one of the professional forums. )

As a 1K flyer with 30 plus years carrying a suitcase on business, I've played the 60 minute delay and repeat until the midnight cancellation game often enough. Mostly good travel with widely scattered storms of incompetence and poor communication.

I mean every airline is always working to improve delays and customer experience. What are you suggesting they do about weather delays? Put 30 crews in outstations? Hire more crew schedulers? Hire more fleet planners? They can do all those things and will pass the buck down to you. I think you have an unrealistic expectation. Like you said in your post, mostly good travel with widely scattered incompetence.

 

[EdFred]

They can do all those things and will pass the buck down to you.

I'm 100% on board with that.

 

[jordane93]

I'm 100% on board with that.

I think you’re one of the few that would be ok with that. Most of the public just want the cheapest fare. If I had to pay for a ticket I’d be shopping around for the cheapest ticket.

 

[wsuffa]

Airlines made the mistake of giving any perks whatsoever if travel goes wrong. You won’t find it in any other type of travel. You’ll get a refund and a “maybe the train will run tomorrow”.

Doesn’t matter if it’s equipment, people, weather. The bus doesn’t show up, you get whatever you had when you arrived.

It’s not the 60s and people begged for deregulation. They got it.

I don’t think they could see that being nice to customers who paid a lot more back in the day, would turn into a modern entitlement with lower margins and huge competition.

Back when I traveled weekly or more, I learned that the system is constantly broken and rearranging itself all day every day. Because our schedule and where we needed to be might change constantly we were mandated to fly on refundable tickets at all times and that wasn’t cheap even in the 90s. I had a number of “reroutes” by my boss as I hit a hub. He knew where we were and what time we would get there and rerouted us as needed.

“You’re getting on a flight to Oakland now, Tom is gearing up to leave here in two hours and go to your customer. You’re going to Chevron in Walnut Hills. Ticket is already changed, head to the gate and grab the new one.”

But even with top tier tickets, crap happens. We didn’t get food vouchers or hotel discounts, we just schlepped our butts to the cab stand after figuring out what hotel we were going to stay at.

Then airlines started doing the voucher thing and it was a mistake. Now people whine when they say “weather” to avoid coughing those up. Part of it nowadays is being much more trapped in the terminals than pre-TSA needing an extra hour to fondle your junk. I get the food thing.

We used to leave, catch a cab to a real lunch and be back 30 minutes before departure and be just fine back then, with all carry-ons. Even two or three of them to haul $40K worth of test gear around with us and tools.

But yeah. Airplanes don’t always go. Just like any other transportation mode. I’ve been stranded in all sorts of cities. The only place you were never stranded was in a hub. And we always had refunded money in a pile somewhere at every airline back then. Want to switch, no biggie. Walk over and switch. But the tickets weren’t $99 specials to Orlando either.

Ah, yes, they moved to the SLA model? Using the contract of carriage as the SLA?

Even back in the 80's they were issuing vouchers for certain disruptions and certain passengers. I was the recipient of several from the likes of UA (always a battle) to DL to CO. CO even paid for a taxi from AUS to SAT one night (glad THEY were paying). Depended on the cause and the passenger - I recall spending Christmas night one year at the Marriott Atlanta Airport courtesy of Delta. It's gotten more stringent, not less stringent, since the early 2000's. Heck, many of them won't even hold aircraft for late-arriving connecting passengers these days.

Of course, given that I worked on corporate purchasing deals for a F500 company didn't hurt.

These days, if you've got higher level status in the frequent flyer program, you MIGHT find that they'll either interline you or put you up in a hotel if the cause is within airline control (such as maintenance). Otherwise, you're SOL (and I don't mean the "standards of learning" school tests in Virginia). I know one person on a full-paid first class ticket that was told that his flight was canceled and it would be 2 days to get him home. He simply said "OK refund my ticked" and had his assistant call the company aviation department, who picked him up 2 hours later in the Citation X.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Ah, yes, they moved to the SLA model? Using the contract of carriage as the SLA?

Even back in the 80's they were issuing vouchers for certain disruptions and certain passengers. I was the recipient of several from the likes of UA (always a battle) to DL to CO. CO even paid for a taxi from AUS to SAT one night (glad THEY were paying). Depended on the cause and the passenger - I recall spending Christmas night one year at the Marriott Atlanta Airport courtesy of Delta. It's gotten more stringent, not less stringent, since the early 2000's. Heck, many of them won't even hold aircraft for late-arriving connecting passengers these days.

Of course, given that I worked on corporate purchasing deals for a F500 company didn't hurt.

These days, if you've got higher level status in the frequent flyer program, you MIGHT find that they'll either interline you or put you up in a hotel if the cause is within airline control (such as maintenance). Otherwise, you're SOL (and I don't mean the "standards of learning" school tests in Virginia). I know one person on a full-paid first class ticket that was told that his flight was canceled and it would be 2 days to get him home. He simply said "OK refund my ticked" and had his assistant call the company aviation department, who picked him up 2 hours later in the Citation X.

They don't hold a connection because it will snowball down the line. 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there adds up. And because marketing drives D0, to be able to advertise you're the #1 on time airline. Can't take delays and be #1 on time.

 

[wsuffa]

They don't hold a connection because it will snowball down the line. 5 minutes here and 5 minutes there adds up. And because marketing drives D0, to be able to advertise you're the #1 on time airline. Can't take delays and be #1 on time.

Oh, I get it completely. But at least one won't hold the last flight of the night or an international flight even if the delay is but a few minutes. Others will hold if there are multiple pax involved.

It's more than D0, though, it's also legal MCT and total flight time as marketing wants total flight time with connection to be as short as possible. The annoying ones are where the boarding door is closed in the connecting pax face and then the plane sits for 10 minutes or more waiting for push.

 

[Wingsofglass]

To each their own.

Agreed. Happy to buy you a beer as we wait in the gate area.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Agreed. Happy to buy you a beer as we wait in the gate area.

Only if you let me buy the second round.

We could make it a lot more fun and buy some pilot shirts and captains bars on sportys...

 

[Larry in TN]

They don't hold a connection because it will snowball down the line.

https://crankyflier.com/2019/06/20/a-more-detailed-look-at-uniteds-connectionsaver/

The basic idea is quite simple. United wanted to automate the process of figuring out which flights to hold for connecting passengers. Up until now, it was using “connection planners” who sat in the NOC and used their brain power and experience to determine which flights to hold when connections were tight. The airline knew automation would help the airline to make a lot more passengers happy, so it went to work building the tool.

 

[EdFred]

I think you’re one of the few that would be ok with that. Most of the public just want the cheapest fare. If I had to pay for a ticket I’d be shopping around for the cheapest ticket.

If it keeps the PeopleOfWalmart off the plane because of increased prices, I am alllllllll for it.

 

[Shepherd]

DELTA, out of New York City, postponed a flight for "weather" yesterday afternoon.
They postponed the flight every 20 minutes until 10:00 AM today. They made the passengers stand on line all night.
No hotel vouchers needed.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

DELTA, out of New York City, postponed a flight for "weather" yesterday afternoon.
They postponed the flight every 20 minutes until 10:00 AM today. They made the passengers stand on line all night.
No hotel vouchers needed.

Here’s the article.

Looks like a bunch of whiners. They might want to entertain purchasing flight insurance next time.



Seriously, though, read the article. Even if the medial only got half of it right, it is aggregious.

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loc...-JFK-Airport-Hours-Los-Angeles-557861311.html

 

[RyanB]

You may want to entertain the idea of purchasing travelers insurance next time.

They might want to entertain purchasing flight insurance next time.

Exactly what I said, word for word. LOL

Unfortunately, it appears that our idea doesn’t hold much clout, as the member above says it wouldn’t cover him in the situation that he outlined - yet, I beg to differ.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Exactly what I said, word for word. LOL

Unfortunately, it appears that our idea doesn’t hold much clout, as the member above says it wouldn’t cover him in the situation that he outlined - yet, I beg to differ.

That wasn’t unintentional. I guess I should have added an emoji.

 

[denverpilot]

Exactly what I said, word for word. LOL

Unfortunately, it appears that our idea doesn’t hold much clout, as the member above says it wouldn’t cover him in the situation that he outlined - yet, I beg to differ.

Not sure the specific insurance y’all are suggesting but many credit cards have automatic travel insurance if booked through the card.

The requirements to actually use it and make a claim are fairly outrageous though. Maybe outrageous isn’t accurate but your chances of meeting them in this lifetime are pretty low.

You’d essentially need an event that shuts down all travel for days. An overnight delay of less than 24 hours won’t even come close.

I suppose there’s some sort of insurance out there that would be more generous about terms, like many cruise lines and such sell, but even those aren’t super easy to use.

What policy are you guys thinking of?

Like someone else joked, having been stranded and delayed all over the place long ago, I’d rather save that money for the proverbial rainy day when I know I’m stuck and fund a cab ride, decent hotel, and an adult beverage.

That crap of announcing a delay, then another, then another, then another — is pure crap though. Tell me I need to come back tomorrow morning and I’ll hit the cab stand.

 

[Groundpounder]

As the airlines get more and more awful, I have more and more job security. My boss isn’t going to be getting on the airlines any time soon.

Oh, and I had an airline flight delayed due to the VNAV having to be deferred. Seriously? The captain looked old enough that he flew before VNAV was even invented.

 

[Larry in TN]

Oh, and I had an airline flight delayed due to the VNAV having to be deferred. Seriously? The captain looked old enough that he flew before VNAV was even invented.

We can't depart with open write-ups. When it breaks, it has to either be fixed or deferred.

 

[Sluggo63]

As the airlines get more and more awful, I have more and more job security. My boss isn’t going to be getting on the airlines any time soon.

Oh, and I had an airline flight delayed due to the VNAV having to be deferred. Seriously? The captain looked old enough that he flew before VNAV was even invented.

You fly for a profession, but can't understand why a flight was delayed to defer the VNAV? Do you understand how a flight can be delayed if a hydraulic pump has to be deferred? It's the same thing. If something is broken on the airplane it needs to either get fixed or deferred. Either option takes time and paperwork. Would you rather this Captain ignore the fact that VNAV wasn't working and depart with it like that knowing it wasn't operational?

 

[Groundpounder]

You fly for a profession, but can't understand why a flight was delayed to defer the VNAV? Do you understand how a flight can be delayed if a hydraulic pump has to be deferred? It's the same thing. If something is broken on the airplane it needs to either get fixed or deferred. Either option takes time and paperwork. Would you rather this Captain ignore the fact that VNAV wasn't working and depart with it like that knowing it wasn't operational?

Yep, wait till you get to the RON to write it up. Hydraulic pump is a safety of flight issue, VNAV is not. But airline pilots have a slightly different mentality when it comes to getting the job done.

 

[jordane93]

Yep, wait till you get to the RON to write it up. Hydraulic pump is a safety of flight issue, VNAV is not. But airline pilots have a slightly different mentality when it comes to getting the job done.

Yea that’s not how things work in the 121 world. If it’s broken, you have to write it up. Doesn’t matter if you’re in an outstation or hub. Or you can depart with a known discrepancy, take the risk, and see how it works out