Can I do a Flight Review from the backseat?

Ron Levy said:
There's on other requirement -- the CFI has to be happy doing this. Not all CFI's are, and I'm one of the unhappy group.
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I very much prefer to have a set of controls on my side of the plane.

I suppose... that makes me a control freak. :)
 
Ron Levy said:
There's on other requirement -- the CFI has to be happy doing this. Not all CFI's are, and I'm one of the unhappy group.
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I can understand reluctance to instruct when there's no way to control the plane, but I've flown a Bonanza many times with the single throwover wheel on the other side and it's really not much different than flying with a sidestick. I must admit that I never landed this way, but we're not talking about that kind of training AFaIK.
 
lancefisher said:
I can understand reluctance to instruct when there's no way to control the plane, but I've flown a Bonanza many times with the single throwover wheel on the other side and it's really not much different than flying with a sidestick. I must admit that I never landed this way, but we're not talking about that kind of training AFaIK.
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I, too, have time in throwover yoke Beeches, and believe there is a very large difference between flying it cross-cockpit and taking control cross-cockpit. That's why I won't instruct in one.
 
Ron Levy said:
I, too, have time in throwover yoke Beeches, and believe there is a very large difference between flying it cross-cockpit and taking control cross-cockpit. That's why I won't instruct in one.
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OK, I think I'm beginning to understand your issues here. I can certainly concur that you'd be at a serious disadvantage trying to wrestle control from a pilot from the other side of the plane. How often does that become necessary in your experience and what circumstances would lead to that situation (just curious, never having fought for control of an airplane with anyone)?
 
lancefisher said:
OK, I think I'm beginning to understand your issues here. I can certainly concur that you'd be at a serious disadvantage trying to wrestle control from a pilot from the other side of the plane. How often does that become necessary in your experience and what circumstances would lead to that situation (just curious, never having fought for control of an airplane with anyone)?
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I don't remember ever having to fight for control, but I have had to take it away quite a few times, usually very close to the ground. However, given the risk, once would be enough. Trying to get my left hand on the right horn of the yoke over on the other side and my right hand on the throttle in the middle from the right seat in an extreme situation seems a bit too much to do without a lot of practice and a real loose seat belt/shoulder harness.
 
lancefisher said:
OK, I think I'm beginning to understand your issues here. I can certainly concur that you'd be at a serious disadvantage trying to wrestle control from a pilot from the other side of the plane. How often does that become necessary in your experience and what circumstances would lead to that situation (just curious, never having fought for control of an airplane with anyone)?
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On the other hand, I'm not so sure that this is as much of an issue as it seems.

Most throw-over yoke airplanes aren't flown by student pilots. Instead, I suspect it's a lot of owner pilots. One would think that this would compensate for the lack of dual controls. Secondly, it's unacceptable to "wrestle" control from the PIC. When flying with other pilots in particular, one of my pre-takeoff briefing items is to make it clear that they are never, ever to touch anything unless I have given them permission to do so. Flying safely is about discipline. Honestly, were someone to wrestle with me for control, I'd probably just give it to them and then press felony charges for interfering with a flight crew.

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
On the other hand, I'm not so sure that this is as much of an issue as it seems.
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As I said, it only has to happen once.
Most throw-over yoke airplanes aren't flown by student pilots. Instead, I suspect it's a lot of owner pilots. One would think that this would compensate for the lack of dual controls.
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My instructing experience says otherwise.
Secondly, it's unacceptable to "wrestle" control from the PIC.
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Regardless of who's designated PIC, when I'm instructing, I'm almost always far more experienced and qualified than the trainee in the left seat, and the FAA, the pilot's family, and the insurance company will all hold me responsible if something bad happens. Therefore, if the need arises in that instructional situation (not the same as Felix and Ron going for a joy ride together), I will do whatever is necessary, including "wrestling control from the PIC," to prevent a violation or accident.

And yes, that is discussed before we get in the plane. If the trainee can't accept that, no hard feelings, but the trainee finds another instructor.
 
Felix, I know how you feel about this, as you've discussed it before.

But in my experience, if i had the choice between having dual controls with a rated pilot or with a post solo student, i think id take the rated pilot. The most concerned i've ever been as an instructor has been when flying with people who are supposedly certificated pilots (not you though!) Post solo Students are some of the most proficient pilots in the system, as they've usually been flying at least weekly for several months. Many certificated pilots are lucky to fly monthly.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't remember ever having to fight for control, but I have had to take it away quite a few times, usually very close to the ground. However, given the risk, once would be enough. Trying to get my left hand on the right horn of the yoke over on the other side and my right hand on the throttle in the middle from the right seat in an extreme situation seems a bit too much to do without a lot of practice and a real loose seat belt/shoulder harness.
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I agree that this would be too awkward close to the ground, I was thinking more along the lines of other training scenarios. And BTW, it's very feasible to just flip the yoke over while flying. The wheel continues to function normally while the transition is being made although you must use wrist torque rather than vertical pressure to affect roll accurately.
 
lancefisher said:
I agree that this would be too awkward close to the ground, I was thinking more along the lines of other training scenarios.
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I understand, but I keep running into folks who hired me for instrument training and then put me where I have to take the controls on a crosswind landing to avoid an accident.
And BTW, it's very feasible to just flip the yoke over while flying. The wheel continues to function normally while the transition is being made although you must use wrist torque rather than vertical pressure to affect roll accurately.
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I agree -- no problem with an orderly transfer of control. Unfortunately, sometimes in training that transfer becomes, of necessity, disorderly.
 
Originally posted by Ron Levy:

Regardless of who's designated PIC, when I'm instructing, I'm almost always far more experienced and qualified than the trainee in the left seat, and the FAA, the pilot's family, and the insurance company will all hold me responsible if something bad happens. Therefore, if the need arises in that instructional situation (not the same as Felix and Ron going for a joy ride together), I will do whatever is necessary, including "wrestling control from the PIC," to prevent a violation or accident.
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Amen. A good friend of mine does Mooney transition training. He's told me some interesting things that lots of "experienced" pilots attempt to do to their $500,000 planes during checkouts.

Recently, in an Acclaim, the student botched a landing, didn't add power, got flummoxed by the sink rate, and tried to arrest the sink by retracting the landing gear! Plane keeps sinking (shocker! HELLO, POWER!). My friend didn't just sit there and allow the guy to smash up his new plane, he got him out of the situation. Student grateful, his feelings weren't hurt, and he learned a valuable lesson.

My friend says to never underestimate a student's ability to do something weird in a plane. By the way, the "student" that did this has 2,000 hours and a commercial cert. Just minimal retract time and no Mooney time. My friend also says that sometimes it's the higher time/higher rated pilots that have more transition troubles than the low time folks.

If that plane was damaged (not mention any bodily injuries) my friend would have been responsible.

Why you folks want to be CFIs is beyond me! :D
 
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