Can ATC issue instructions via ATIS?

[inav8r]

Cavaet: I don't intend to do this as it calls safety into question, but I'm curious about the following:

I sometimes fly near a class C that has a ceiling of 4800 MSL. When tuning in the ATIS for the airport there is an instruction that says something like "If overflying please contact approach on xxx.x". From prior experience they've "vectored" me around the class C rather than allow me to transition thru it (I've never tried to go over). If I were to decide to overfly them at say 5500 MSL and I don't contact approach can I get busted?

 

[tonycondon]

well, there is no requirement to listen to the ATIS if you are just flying over. And there is no requirement to contact any controller if you are not in their airspace. As long as you have mode C you can overfly Class C. They probably would just like all the overflyers to contact them, hence the deal on the ATIS. Thats understandable too, I would want to be talking to the airplanes flying directly overhead if i were them.

 

[ScottM]

well, there is no requirement to listen to the ATIS if you are just flying over. And there is no requirement to contact any controller if you are not in their airspace. As long as you have mode C you can overfly Class C. They probably would just like all the overflyers to contact them, hence the deal on the ATIS. Thats understandable too, I would want to be talking to the airplanes flying directly overhead if i were them.

Inadition notice they are asking you e.g. "PLEASE" not stating a requirement just requesting some courtesy. If you don't no problem, but why would you not?

 

[EdFred]

Why would I listen to ATIS if I am flying over?

 

[ScottM]

Why would I listen to ATIS if I am flying over?

I would do it to get an update altimeter setting to make sure I am really over their airspace

 

[EdFred]

I would do it to get an update altimeter setting to make sure I am really over their airspace

I listen to approach frequencies and get 'em when they give them to someone else.

 

[cherokeeflyboy]

Maybe its just me, if I am flying over/near class C at 5500' I'm talking to someone....ya know how quick a 737 climbs to 5000'?????

 

[fgcason]

Why would I listen to ATIS if I am flying over?

I wouldn't be overly concerned with ATIS. I do however politely let approach or the tower know I'm above them out of common courtesy. Besides, it reduces the chances of me puddling my seat if they bottle rocket a Lear to the flight levels past my window.

 

[mdreger]

In a word... No. At least not control instructions. Although we are required to include "Read back all runway hold short instructions."

From FAAO 7110.65R Chapter 2
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0209.html#2-9-1

[SIZE=+1]Section 9. Automatic Terminal Information
Service Procedures[/SIZE]​

​

2-9-1. APPLICATION
​

Use the ATIS, where available, to provide advance noncontrol airport/terminal area and meteorological information to aircraft.

 

[bbchien]

Cavaet: I don't intend to do this as it calls safety into question, but I'm curious about the following:

I sometimes fly near a class C that has a ceiling of 4800 MSL. When tuning in the ATIS for the airport there is an instruction that says something like "If overflying please contact approach on xxx.x". From prior experience they've "vectored" me around the class C rather than allow me to transition thru it (I've never tried to go over). If I were to decide to overfly them at say 5500 MSL and I don't contact approach can I get busted?

Wow. Another attempt to exclude GA aircraft. Unbelievable.

If you contact approach you are now subject to Controller instruction.

Ten years ago I would have strongly advised any GA pilot to do this. But if they try this at ORD.....gaaaack. It's bad enough that I have to cross at 16,000 IFR to get routed direct.

I would suggest studying all the instrument approach and departure corridors, staying away from the SID/STAR fixes, monitoring the correct dep. con. but remaining silent; crossing above as you need with head on a swivel. At Indy, avoid:

CLANG (114.4 MIE 244 @ D27)
DECEE (112.0 SHB 171 @ D19)
DAWNN (116.3 VHP 174 @ D75- avoid the whole radial)
ROCKY (116.3 VHP 263 to D115- avoid the whole radial)

and keep a lookout. The space above Indy IS, AFTER ALL, NOT CLASS B. Just stay out of the corridors. And it will be a cold day in h_ll with a lot of opposition when they extend that to 12,000 (That is what C90 wants at ORD).

 

[inav8r]

Wow. Another attempt to exclude GA aircraft. Unbelievable

Well, I've not yet tried to go over, only transition thru, once, and I was politely routed around. Perhaps they were just busy that day.

If you contact approach you are now subject to Controller instruction.

Ten years ago I would have strongly advised any GA pilot to do this. But if they try this at ORD.....gaaaack. It's bad enough that I have to cross at 16,000 IFR to get routed direct.

Hence my question.

Truthfully, class C's are small enough that it really doesn't take that much longer to just go around. And I'm not advocating not calling up before overflying - I was just curious.

I would suggest studying all the instrument approach and departure corridors, staying away from the SID/STAR fixes, monitoring the correct dep. con. but remaining silent; crossing above as you need with head on a swivel. At Indy, avoid:

CLANG (114.4 MIE 244 @ D27)
DECEE (112.0 SHB 171 @ D19)
DAWNN (116.3 VHP 174 @ D75- avoid the whole radial)
ROCKY (116.3 VHP 263 to D115- avoid the whole radial)

and keep a lookout. The space above Indy IS, AFTER ALL, NOT CLASS B. Just stay out of the corridors. And it will be a cold day in h_ll with a lot of opposition when they extend that to 12,000 (That is what C90 wants at ORD).

I know a couple of times I've tried some sight seeing over Geist resivoir (really big boating recreational area) that is under the FAF for KIND when the winds are out of the south. Baaaad idea, let me tell you. Talk about heavy iron in the area!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

well, there is no requirement to listen to the ATIS if you are just flying over. And there is no requirement to contact any controller if you are not in their airspace. As long as you have mode C you can overfly Class C. They probably would just like all the overflyers to contact them, hence the deal on the ATIS. Thats understandable too, I would want to be talking to the airplanes flying directly overhead if i were them.

I agree, but I've overflown airspace, contacted approach, and it's like "Why are you calling me?".

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I agree, but I've overflown airspace, contacted approach, and it's like "Why are you calling me?".

It all depends on the airspace and the controller....(as well as the sector. Sometimes they want you to call, but you end up calling the wrong guy, which isn't always your fault).

I don't have much more to add to the items the others have stated above.

Jason

 

[mikea]

Well, PWK hason its ATIS that "Departing VFR aircraft squawk 5 - 1 - 0 - 4 until 5 nm from Palwaukee then squawk 1 - 2 - 0 - 0" and AFAIK, they don't give you instruction when you call ground or tower.

Strange, innit?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Well, PWK hason its ATIS that "Departing VFR aircraft squawk 5 - 1 - 0 - 4 until 5 nm from Palwaukee then squawk 1 - 2 - 0 - 0" and AFAIK, they don't give you instruction when you call ground or tower.

Strange, innit?

This is similar to the "readback all runway hold short instructions [and the assigned runway]" that you will hear on every ATIS. It is an implied piece of information.

Knowing those items can probably be considered part of preflight duties:

Preflight action:
Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

a. No, it isn't an ATC instruction.
b. It could be as simple as the airspace is divided horizontally into sectors surrounding the Class C, and vertically into one ATC sector over the top of the Class C. In this case the ATIS message might simply be meant to help folks flying over the Class C find the proper frequency since the chart probably only shows the lateral sector frequencies.

"Just because they really are out to get you doesn't mean you aren't paranoid." -- apologies to "Catch-22".

 

[ggroves]

Wow. Another attempt to exclude GA aircraft. Unbelievable.

If you contact approach you are now subject to Controller instruction.

Bingo!

This usually involves an excursion xx miles out of your way at their convienence.

Once upon a time, overflying someones airspace and talking to them usually created irritation....now we're shifting the other way. I agree with Bruce...the airspace grab is going to continue.

Overflying D, C, and B VFR...I talk to nobody. It's the controllers job to keep his traffic out of my way.

Greg
182RG

 

[wsuffa]

If you want to overfly Cincy's Class B, don't talk to anyone. You will be routed out and around, up to 50 miles.

It can be a lot faster to go over the top without talking, then descend on the other side if you're headed across the Class B to an airport underneath. Even as a Class C, they didn't want you going over the top.

 

[Areeda]

Again I have to thank the SoCal controllers for being so cooperative and polite.

I regularly overfly LAX Class B, Burbank and Ontario Class C. I use flight following a lot but not all the time, route doesn't change. Sometimes I get a vector for traffic or a climb/descent altitude restriction but have yet to get a route around (knock on something wood ... I guess my head is the only thing in arms reach).

Joe

 

[gkainz]

I don't understand why talking to tower/approach/controlling agency while outside their airspace puts one under their positive control. I am, after all, still outside their airspace, right?

I would assume that if given vectors around their airspace, one could simply reply "Thanks for the suggestion, but no thanks. My courtesy call was simply a heads up that I'm going over the top." (using appropriate phraseology, of course) then shut up and overfly the space. Seems to me that 500' above their airspace is "clear of class B/C/D" just as good as 5 miles horizontal separation... what am I missing?

 

[Skip Miller]

I don't understand why talking to tower/approach/controlling agency while outside their airspace puts one under their positive control. I am, after all, still outside their airspace, right?

I would assume that if given vectors around their airspace, one could simply reply "Thanks for the suggestion, but no thanks. My courtesy call was simply a heads up that I'm going over the top." (using appropriate phraseology, of course) then shut up and overfly the space. Seems to me that 500' above their airspace is "clear of class B/C/D" just as good as 5 miles horizontal separation... what am I missing?

Other traffic, perhaps.

I can't cite the NTSB report, but I understand there is a landmark case where a VFR plane was exiting Class C tower/surface space. At the edge of the tower/surface airspace, the pilot got the usual "squawk 1200, etc." and almost immediately got into a serious deal, maybe even a mid-air. ATC's inactions became the probable cause, essentially letting the guy fly into harm's way OUTSIDE the Tower Controller's airspace. "Squawk 1200" at the last minute before an accident does not absolve a controller from the responsibility for that deal.

So if ATC has continued responsibility, no matter how briefly, ATC has to have the authority to sort out those deals.

Now has ATC used this ruling to extend their authority too far? Could be. I don't have the facts to tell for sure but I would not be surprised. All I know is that when I hear my tail number I listen and obey.

-Skip

 

[Steve]

One could make the argument that anytime you are above 1200'agl (lower where designated) and in contact with ATC you are subject to complying with their instructions, regardless of meteorological conditions.

 

[Everskyward]

Overflying D, C, and B VFR...I talk to nobody. It's the controllers job to keep his traffic out of my way.

Not really. It's still see and avoid on the part of both airplanes.

While I agree that it's perfectly within your right to fly overhead without talking to anyone, there's a reason why they don't want you to do that. When you're directly overhead there's not much other traffic, but when you're overhead and close to the lateral limits, especially near a departure route, there are many planes exiting the Class B in that location. Since they're climbing through 10,000' they're also accelerating past 250 knots. Small airplanes are somewhat hard to see at that speed, and if the fast airplane is overtaking, you won't be able to see them at all.

I learned this a long time ago when I was above and slightly outside the lateral limits of a Class B in a small airplane. I got to see the inspiring sight of an airliner in front of me. I had previously asked for flight following which was denied so I was there without talking to ATC. We were close enough so that the airliner reported it so they tracked us down and I had a nice conversation with an ATC supervisor. He was actually very helpful and educated me on these things. Now that I fly faster airplanes I can see it from that side too.

 

[Greebo]

If you contact approach you are now subject to Controller instruction.

But... if you're overflying class C, not in it (and thus probably in Class E space) and you call up to let them know, if they start trying to give you instructions, since you are NOT in manatory airspace, can't you just say, "Request terminate flight following" and end the discussion?

 

[ggroves]

Not really. It's still see and avoid on the part of both airplanes.

See and avoid is always in place..I totally agree. However, ATC is providing separation services to the IFR traffic. It is their job.

While I agree that it's perfectly within your right to fly overhead without talking to anyone, there's a reason why they don't want you to do that.

Of course they don't want you to do that. I'm sure they'd like a 30 mile ring up to 18,000.

We were close enough so that the airliner reported it so they tracked us down and I had a nice conversation with an ATC supervisor. He was actually very helpful and educated me on these things.

Tracked you down, and educated you? Interesting...

Did he educate the responsible controller for the deal? You didn't pop up out of nowhere, were probably on a fixed course, and at a fixed speed....and you shouldn't have been there?

My only question Everskyward is where does it end?

I used to file IFR everywhere I flew...still do it an awful lot with some exceptions. NYC is now an exception. While NE PA, upstate NY, and CT offer some nice sight seeing opportunities....it gets expensive @ 14 GPH and $4 plus a gallon.

Greg
182RG

 

[ggroves]

can't you just say, "Request terminate flight following" and end the discussion?

Yes you can...

Greg
182RG

 

[Skip Miller]

See and avoid is always in place..I totally agree. However, ATC is providing separation services to the IFR traffic. It is their job.

Not quite. They are providing separation service among IFR aircraft. Since they don't control VFRs that they are not talking to, they do not provide separation services between IFR and VFR. It remains see and avoid.

As a matter of practice, they will give the IFR guy a heads-up on the bogey if they are able but it is not required, until it becomes a .... stretching for the right term here .... a Safety Alert? Collision Alert?

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

See and avoid is always in place..I totally agree. However, ATC is providing separation services to the IFR traffic. It is their job.

That would be separation between two IFR airplanes.

Tracked you down, and educated you? Interesting...

They had to. It was reported by the airliner as a near midair.

Did he educate the responsible controller for the deal? You didn't pop up out of nowhere, were probably on a fixed course, and at a fixed speed....and you shouldn't have been there?

No, I wasn't on a fixed course. I was maneuvering.

Some background on this. I was doing aerial survey (photogrammetric mapping) at various sites in and near the Class B. I had been talking to approach earlier but when I wanted to go to this particular site they said they were too busy and didn't want to follow us any more. Being that it was above and slightly outside the Class B I didn't really give it much thought. Mapping requires you to fly specific lines over the ground. I was coming out of what you might consider the base turn to start the line when I saw the airplane.

I don't have any idea what they told the controller, but they told me later that it was a see-and-avoid situation where there was no blame put on either airplane or the controller. Just one of those things.

I had a generally good relationship with ATC, especially Denver TRACON. I would call on the phone first to coordinate our jobs within the Class B. They would try to accomodate us, traffic permitting, even if it was in a bad area for them.

My point is that while flying around above and beside the Class B without talking to anyone is legal, it may not be a wonderful idea, especially for people who don't understand that there may be a lot of high-speed traffic.

 

[ggroves]

No, I wasn't on a fixed course. I was maneuvering.

Ah..I was still stuck on overflights..now it makes more sense.

I agree with your points...

However, on the overflights, I still take issue with the "grab"...

Greg
182RG

 

[mikea]

But... if you're overflying class C, not in it (and thus probably in Class E space) and you call up to let them know, if they start trying to give you instructions, since you are NOT in manatory airspace, can't you just say, "Request terminate flight following" and end the discussion?

We've discussed that before in regards to my sinister plan to go over O'Hare's Class B. Ron will chime in but I think he said the "...must comply with all ATC instructions..." rule will get 'cha.

When I flew VFR westbound at 8500 over the Cleveland Class B they gave me a heading that routed me north several miles toward Lake Erie to get me away from the departures from Hopkins. They even pointed out the jet leaving to me. No hassles.

 

[wsuffa]

But... if you're overflying class C, not in it (and thus probably in Class E space) and you call up to let them know, if they start trying to give you instructions, since you are NOT in manatory airspace, can't you just say, "Request terminate flight following" and end the discussion?

Maybe, but not necessarily. If the controller says "right turn to 180, remain on that heading until clear of the lateral limits of the Class C, remain clear of the lateral limits of the Class C", you are bound by those instructions.

 

[gismo]

Maybe, but not necessarily. If the controller says "right turn to 180, remain on that heading until clear of the lateral limits of the Class C, remain clear of the lateral limits of the Class C", you are bound by those instructions.

My understanding is that you are obliged to comply unless you have a valid 91.3 emergency, but the controller isn't authorized to give controlling "instructions" outside Class A-D either.

Now most such open ended instructions would be impossible to comply with completely. EG: in the earlier example WRT exiting the lateral limits of the Class C and not returning, obviously the pilot could re-enter that airspace sometime in the future even though that would "violate" the instruction since no time limit was specified. And what would be required if the controller got mad and said to go land somewhere and never take off again. My point is that there must be limits on what a controller can "instruct" a pilot and those limits are bound to be more lax outside the airspace and/or flight rules (VFR/IFR) where he has more authority,and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that these limits aren't clearly spelled out anywhere or that some controllers are willing to venture beyond what limits are published.

 

[AirBaker]

Bingo!

This usually involves an excursion xx miles out of your way at their convienence.

Overflying D, C, and B VFR...I talk to nobody. It's the controllers job to keep his traffic out of my way.

Had that lesson a while back, while leaving the Bay Area. Thought I'd be nice and tell the controller that "I" was the VFR traffic he was poining out to the inbound 757. I got the "squawk xxxx, fly heading xxx."

After that, I'll listen and do my best to stay out of their way but I don't talk to them unless necessary.

 

[wsuffa]

My understanding is that you are obliged to comply unless you have a valid 91.3 emergency, but the controller isn't authorized to give controlling "instructions" outside Class A-D either.

A controller can issue instructions in "controlled" airspace, including Class E.

Now most such open ended instructions would be impossible to comply with completely. EG: in the earlier example WRT exiting the lateral limits of the Class C and not returning, obviously the pilot could re-enter that airspace sometime in the future even though that would "violate" the instruction since no time limit was specified. And what would be required if the controller got mad and said to go land somewhere and never take off again. My point is that there must be limits on what a controller can "instruct" a pilot and those limits are bound to be more lax outside the airspace and/or flight rules (VFR/IFR) where he has more authority,and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that these limits aren't clearly spelled out anywhere or that some controllers are willing to venture beyond what limits are published.

I agree that there are limits, and I doubt a contoller is authorized to tell you to go land somewhere (possible exception: violations of the ADIZ, in which case the controller is acting at the behest of a law enforcement agency).

I would, however, bet that if you were ordered out of the lateral limits of the Class C (including the airspace above) and you came right back in, that you'd be looking at a potential violation of 91.123: ("(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."). I see no limitation on Class A, B, C, or D airspace in that rule.

 

[inav8r]

Don't approach control facilities "own" the airspace above and around the airport for which they're operating? So even tho you're in E airspace, you're in THEIR airspace for which they have the responsibility of controlling.

Looks like I'm going to be going into KIND in 2 weeks to pick up a commercial pax. It should be fun.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Don't approach control facilities "own" the airspace above and around the airport for which they're operating? So even tho you're in E airspace, you're in THEIR airspace for which they have the responsibility of controlling.

Looks like I'm going to be going into KIND in 2 weeks to pick up a commercial pax. It should be fun.

Yes, but although you are operating in class E (controlled) airspace, there is no requirement to communicate with ATC unless you're an IFR aircraft. That airspace is owned by them (the lateral boundries and altitude strata vary in any airspace and coincide with SOP and LOAs with the adjacent facilities) for controlling IFR aicraft, not necessarily VFR per say.

In that airspace, they are required to separate IFR from IFR, but not VFR from IFR as someone already stated earlier.

Jason

 

[AirBaker]

In that airspace, they are required to separate IFR from IFR, but not VFR from IFR as someone already stated earlier.

They may not have to seperate VFR traffic from IFR traffic, but they would provide separation for that same IFR traffic from the VFR guy right?

While not logically the same, it would have the same end result right?

 

[Skip Miller]

They may not have to seperate VFR traffic from IFR traffic, but they would provide separation for that same IFR traffic from the VFR guy right?

While not logically the same, it would have the same end result right?

No. My understanding is that there is no separation standard for IFR/VFR and VFR/IFR. When this happens to me in Class C I always hear "maintain visual separation" after visual contact is determined. What is visual separation? Don't hit the guy....

-Skip

 

[Everskyward]

They may not have to seperate VFR traffic from IFR traffic, but they would provide separation for that same IFR traffic from the VFR guy right?

No, that's not the case. They will give the IFR airplane traffic advisories if they can but it's not required. They only have to separate two IFR airplanes, not an IFR and a VFR. We're talking about the class E outside of B or C, right?

Oops. we must have posted at the same time.

 

[bbchien]

But... if you're overflying class C, not in it (and thus probably in Class E space) and you call up to let them know, if they start trying to give you instructions, since you are NOT in manatory airspace, can't you just say, "Request terminate flight following" and end the discussion?

You can but I'll bet he gives you an instruction just before he acknowledges "frequency change approved"....like fly heading 220 remain clear of Class B (OUTTA MY overhead and away from my approach corridors)! Now, you have to do that....but for how long, another can of worms.