Can a Private Pilot do this, or does it require a Commercial

bflynn said:
You guys keep at it. Using your logic, taking a passenger with you curries favor, which creates future economic value and is therefore compensation.

Sorry, you are no longer allowed to carry passengers. 61.113 forbids it.
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It's the NTSB's logic, but in the cases involved, there was specific evidence of an expectation or anticipation that future business or employment would result from the flights. So it's not as sweeping a precedent as some people make it out to be.
 

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Juliet Hotel said:
Even flying solo in a plane you own derives pleasure which leads to better well-being which can be considered a form of compensation. Safest bet is forget about flying anything until you get the commercial ticket.
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Compensation is something that you receive from someone else. In the example you cite, the benefit is provided by the pilot to himself.
 
Palmpilot said:
Compensation is something that you receive from someone else. In the example you cite, the benefit is provided by the pilot to himself.
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Compensation can come from yourself. Business owners and sole proprietors get paychecks too. Remember, this whole convoluted mess comes about because the FAA has decided that no money or other tangible constructs have to change hands in order to consider that a pilot has been compensated. Mere goodwill or just the idea of it has been considered compensation.

Remember too that I was being sarcastic.
 
iu
 
But can you log PIC of the flight school owner’s brother dies while eating a grilled cheese sandwich even though he didn’t have a medical but did 2 take offs and landings at night in a glider?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Compensation can come from yourself. Business owners and sole proprietors get paychecks too. Remember, this whole convoluted mess comes about because the FAA has decided that no money or other tangible constructs have to change hands in order to consider that a pilot has been compensated. Mere goodwill or just the idea of it has been considered compensation.

Remember too that I was being sarcastic.
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Are you being sarcastic now? Hard to tell. ;)
 
What if the plane was on a treadmill? Did it technically takeoff?
 
Witmo said:
Ferrying an airplane for a business you are employed by hinges on the term "incidental." I could argue that it was indeed incidental to my duties and thus legal. It certainly could not be considered incidental if ferrying aircraft from place to place were listed in the pilot's job description.
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I agree that legality hinges on the meaning of "incidental".

They way I've always understood it is that if my boss says "hey Tiger, go to Hell" (that's Hell, MI in Livingston County, where one of our customers is located) and I choose to take an airplane - that flying is "incidental" to my duties, which are visiting customers.

If the boss tells me "hey Tiger, go fly the airplane" is "flying the airplane" really "incidental" to the job? The sole purpose of the flight is moving the airplane as instructed by the boss. It doesn't seem like tweaking my job description or adjusting what's written on boss's shingle out front should determine the legality (should it?).
 
BrianNC said:
I like mayo based, not vinegar based like you have in NC.
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The correct answer is both. I make mine with Cabbage, Onion, Mayo, Apple Cider Vinegar, Spicy Brown mustard, Celery Seed, Sugar, Salt, Pepper.
 
tiger said:
I agree that legality hinges on the meaning of "incidental".

If the boss tells me "hey Tiger, go fly the airplane" is "flying the airplane" really "incidental" to the job? The sole purpose of the flight is moving the airplane as instructed by the boss. It doesn't seem like tweaking my job description or adjusting what's written on boss's shingle out front should determine the legality (should it?).
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The sole purpose of the flight is to move the airplane, but that’s not your normal job, so it would be incidental to your employment. If flying the airplane to maintenance isn’t the way the company makes its living (and as I mentioned previously, I’m assuming that the business of the operator is flight instruction or something other than aircraft ferrying), then it’s incidental to the business as well.
 
BrianNC said:
I like mayo based, not vinegar based like you have in NC.
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See, and I was going to like this post until the end...because cole slaw in NC IS mayonnaise based. You'll only run across vinegar stuff in a few barbecue restaurants.
 
bflynn said:
See, and I was going to like this post until the end...because cole slaw in NC IS mayonnaise based. You'll only run across vinegar stuff in a few barbecue restaurants.
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Well that's where I got it like that, at the restaurants that use vinegar based BBQ sauce. I like vinegar based sauce though, as well as 'traditional' BBQ sauce. I don't think I ever had vinegar based cole slaw until I had it at a BBQ restaurant in NC when I lived there.
 
Perhaps I just take a more conservative view of "incidental".

Two considerations that occur to me:

1) Can your task be accomplished without the airplane? (if the answer is 'yes', then the flight may be incidental, but in the above case the answer is 'no' since your task is moving the airplane)
2) What are you getting paid for doing while the airplane moves? (being paid to go visit a client and happening to use an airplane may make the flight 'incidental', but here the only thing of value to the flight school's business you're achieving is moving that airplane).

I don't think it's totally clear cut, but I don't think I'd bet my certificate on the FAA considering a flight school employee on the clock while ferrying flight school airplanes to or from maintenance as being engaged in an activity 'incidental' to the operation of a flight school. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Sorry about that, vinegar cole slaw is a travesty.

All the seafood restaurants (the other food God gifted NC with) serve mayo based.
 
tiger said:
1) Can your task be accomplished without the airplane? (if the answer is 'yes', then the flight may be incidental, but in the above case the answer is 'no' since your task is moving the airplane)
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I knew of a guy that flew fish spotting where I used to live. He managed to ball up his plane some way or another and had the FAA looking hard at him. One of the first things they discovered was his lack of a commercial certificate. He was not busted on it in the end though. The FAA decided that he was being paid as a crew member of the boat and his use of the airplane in performing his duties as a fish spotter was incidental to his employment as a crew member of the boat. I suppose they felt he could have just put on a mask and snorkel and tried to spot fish that way and therefore an airplane was not required to do that job. :rolleyes:

Obviously I wouldn't recommend anyone go out and get a job flying fish spotting with just a private cert. But it does go to show that they won't always rule the way you might expect when it comes to incidental use.
 
jordane93 said:
But can you log PIC of the flight school owner’s brother dies while eating a grilled cheese sandwich even though he didn’t have a medical but did 2 take offs and landings at night in a glider?
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Only if the grilled cheese had coleslaw on it!
 
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