Can a PPL do it?

Captain

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Untrue story I heard about happening somewhere else.

Bobs Shack of Soaring runs a 135 operation all over the US moving anyone who will pay. One day one of there planes departs a small airport and the pilot leaves the planes logbook behind. The plane is grounded until its return, but the crew is out of duty time to get a car and drive the 200 miles or so to retrieve the logbook.

So, the company (BSS) calls the FBO where the logbook is left. Johnny answers the phone and sure enough the logbook is right there. BSS asks Johnny if he can deliver the logbook as there is no other curriour service in the town.

Johnny says he has school tomorrow but could probably fit it in if he flew a C-172 he has access to. Company (BSS) says that's fine and would be willing to pay for whatever cost Johnny incurrs as its vital they get that logbook to their plane by tomorrow morning when they have a VIP flight scheduled.

Johnny doesn't know. Wants to ask the FBO boss. BSS says that's fine but doesn't think the boss will ever agree as he'll be motivated to use his own charter service for massive profit with the late call out fees and all.

BSS is fine with Johnny driving it over. 4 hours from now is just as good as 2 hours. BSS does not care. As incentive BSS offers Johnny payment to drive his car over equal to the cost of whatever the C-172 rental would have been.

So, here's the question:

Can Johnny drive his car and accept payment related to the Cessna rental? Can Johnny elect to fly instead? Remember, BSS doesn't care one way or the other. If he can't fly why not? It's totally his choice to save time for himself as he has school the next day.

Discuss.
 
This has nothing to do with the question but, what has a log book got to do with them flying? Also if they worked fror me I would tell them they can do what ever they wish when off duty and suggest strongly they take a nice relaxing drive back to the last destination to retieve this magical log book.:rolleyes:
 
Drive: Fine

Fly: He's acting as the PIC of an aircraft carrying property for hire...hell no. Even with a commercial, he's hauling cargo without an operator's certificate.
 
ronnieh said:
This has nothing to do with the question but, what has a log book got to do with them flying? Also if they worked fror me I would tell them they can do what ever they wish when off duty and suggest strongly they take a nice relaxing drive back to the last destination to retieve this magical log book.:rolleyes:
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What about duty time?
 
Being that this is an untrue story, I'll give an untrue response:

He should pull the Citation out of the hangar and top it off, fly the trip and put it away before anyone notices.
 
If he's carrying any property for hire, even just a logbook, it is commercial operation. So no, he can't do it.

If he's driving, that does not come under FAA purview, so it's a moot question.

-Rich
 
Gdriver, When OFF duty. What they do in their off time is of no concern as long as it is not flying related. This was toungue in cheek from me. The question did not make sense to me so I was just having a little fun.:lol:
 
Well I am sure that the driving is fine. He can get paid anything he likes to carry non-hazardous material in a pax car, no? Commercial drivers license being based on weight and type of vehicle, not whether you are paid to drive. Can't see how it would be OK for him to fly cargo for hire.
 
No comm dr liscense req'd to be a courier for non-hazmat
 
RotorAndWing said:
Why do posters put this at the end of their post?

Totally asinine.
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That's a valid view.

Another is that Internet communication is limited as it is. Thousands of generations have developed sophisticated non-verbal cues to aid in face to face communication. Written communication is but a momentary blink in that evolution and Internet communication is but a momomentary blink of that blink.

The Internet is so new that we are still developing the protocols that enable effective communication. By adding "Discuss" I am conveying a tone, a mood. The idea that the topic is silly, or trivial. A play on SNLs skit 'coffee talk' perhaps.

Regardless, maybe the 7 letter word speaks volumes as would a slightly raised eyebrow on a face to face speaker.

Or, it could just be as you said, asinine.
 
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alfadog said:
BTW, nudge nudge wink wink.

So did Johnny fly it over?? My guess is, he did.
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I honestly don't know. From what I remember the 'logbook' made it and the 'VIP Flight' left on time. Like I said though, it's an untrue story that I heard about happening somewhere else.


; )
 
Captain said:
I honestly don't know. From what I remember the 'logbook' made it and the 'VIP Flight' left on time. Like I said though, it's an untrue story that I heard about happening somewhere else.


; )
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Funny how things work out. :D

BTW, you do know, of course, that when you tell us where you have been you tell us all about the flight, don't you? Don't know if you want that data (N-number, etc.) private.
 
Captain said:
Can Johnny drive his car and accept payment related to the Cessna rental? Can Johnny elect to fly instead? Remember, BSS doesn't care one way or the other. If he can't fly why not? It's totally his choice to save time for himself as he has school the next day.
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Johnny can drive himself and get paid. Or he can fly an airplane and not get paid.

Why the inconsistency? Because that's the rules. You know what they, I know what they are. There's no grey area here, only an alledged pilot that alledgely didn't get caught.
 
Old Geek said:
Why does the logbook have to be in the original plane in order to fly it?
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Dunno. I was just trying to make it some required thing. Make it the baggage door key, or AFM if it helps. The thing doesn't matter to the story.

Alpha, when I post where I am I don't link to stories. Im in BHB right now. Just flew N176SL in. Can you figure out where I left from or what FARs were violated?
 
Captain said:
Dunno. I was just trying to make it some required thing. Make it the baggage door key, or AFM if it helps. The thing doesn't matter to the story.

Alpha, when I post where I am I don't link to stories. Im in BHB right now. Just flew N176SL in. Can you figure out where I left from or what FARs were violated?
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KAVL. What FAR did you violate? :D
 
bflynn said:
Johnny can drive himself and get paid. Or he can fly an airplane and not get paid.

Why the inconsistency? Because that's the rules. You know what they, I know what they are. There's no grey area here, only an alledged pilot that alledgely didn't get caught.
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I never said Johnny flew the flight. I said I honestly don't know. I will also say I was NOT either pilot whether the story has any truth or not.

Why can a pilot fly for work if it's not in furtherance of his business. A lawyer can fly his brief to some city and make thousands. Johnny cannt use a plane instead of his car or bicycle?

What if it's not a lawyer and is just a paralegal delivering the lawyers brief.
 
Captain said:
I never said Johnny flew the flight. I said I honestly don't know. I will also say I was NOT either pilot whether the story has any truth or not.

Why can a pilot fly for work if it's not in furtherance of his business. A lawyer can fly his brief to some city and make thousands. Johnny cannt use a plane instead of his car or bicycle?

What if it's not a lawyer and is just a paralegal delivering the lawyers brief.
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The lawyer is flying himself or herself to the city to make thousands, not the brief, which is incidental to his or her work. He or she is not being paid to fly, but to do his or her lawyer thing once he or she gets there. The flying is incidental to the work. The attorney is not being paid to fly, but to lawyer.

Although... I have to wonder how the lawyer would be able to bill for his or her travel without running afoul of the FARs. Would that make it a "for-hire" flight? I imagine that the answer would be that the client is paying for the lawyer's presence regardless of the mode of travel.

Either that, or the lawyer could waive the travel expenses, but bill for the time spent thinking about the case during the flight. :D

As for a paralegal, I guess that would depend on whether the paralegal's presence was required, or merely the brief. I suspect that it would be considered for-hire unless the paralegal's presence and services were genuinely needed. Otherwise, I think it would be a for-hire cargo flight.

-Rich
 
My attorney charges $200/hr for actual work time doing his attorney magic and does not pile on extra for traveling (which he does frequently). It's all in the final bill somewhere, good luck separating it.
 
Paralegal presence not required. Just get the briefs to the lawyer by court tomorrow.
 
> Why does the logbook have to be in the original plane in order to fly it?

It doesn't ... unless their 135 certificate requires the logbooks to be aboard.
 
Captain said:
Can Johnny drive his car and accept payment related to the Cessna rental?
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If he crosses a state line, the ICC might not like it, but that's the only thing I see, and I'm not sure about the law on that.

Can Johnny elect to fly instead?
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Absolutely not (at least, not legally). That would be providing on-demand air transportation of cargo for hire, and that's a 135 operation. Doesn't matter what the customer knows, wants, or cares, only what Johnny does.
 
Little johnny should fly unannounced to the location and bury the log book. Upon return he should offer to sell the location for a fee of his own choosing. Preferably multiples of the original. The trip is now personal business development. If they pay great, if not no ones the wiser. Regardless he had no guarantee nor contract.
 
FlyerQ said:
Little johnny should fly unannounced to the location and bury the log book. Upon return he should offer to sell the location for a fee of his own choosing. Preferably multiples of the original. The trip is now personal business development. If they pay great, if not no ones the wiser. Regardless he had no guarantee nor contract.
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While the FAA probably wouldn't care at first, the FBI tends to get involved in cases of extortion, and then once Johnny was convicted for a Federal felony involving the use of an aircraft, the FAA would probably then get involved with an appropriate certificate action.
 
I knew I could count on this reply
 
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Ron Levy said:
Absolutely not (at least, not legally). That would be providing on-demand air transportation of cargo for hire, and that's a 135 operation. Doesn't matter what the customer knows, wants, or cares, only what Johnny does.
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What if Johnny declared that there is no way he could possibly fly because that is the domain of 135 operation and then mentioned he was trying to build his business teaching people to ride unicycles. If they expressed interest and faxed back a signed contract for instruction could he fly to provide this training? In the process could he return the log book?
 
Ron Levy said:
If he crosses a state line, the ICC might not like it, but that's the only thing I see, and I'm not sure about the law on that.

.
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Given that the Interstate Commerce Commission was abolished some 17 years ago, I don't imagine our private pilot would hear much of anything from them.
 
FlyerQ said:
What if Johnny declared that there is no way he could possibly fly because that is the domain of 135 operation and then mentioned he was trying to build his business teaching people to ride unicycles. If they expressed interest and faxed back a signed contract for instruction could he fly to provide this training?
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Yes! and it would be legal, too.
In the process could he return the log book?
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Not legally.
 
l8evator said:
Given that the Interstate Commerce Commission was abolished some 17 years ago, I don't imagine our private pilot would hear much of anything from them.
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Well, I said I wasn't sure about the law on interstate ground transportation. However, I think there is still some sort of agency with rules about interstate transportation of cargo for hire.
 
Ron Levy said:
Not legally.
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Why if that wasn't the purpose of the trip and he was simply doing a favor?

Could a lawyer return a forgotten set of keys left in his office on travel to see the client to close a business purchase?

Could I return a necklace my mother left at my house when I go to visit her?
 
FlyerQ said:
Why if that wasn't the purpose of the trip and he was simply doing a favor?

Could a lawyer return a forgotten set of keys left in his office on travel to see the client to close a business purchase?

Could I return a necklace my mother left at my house when I go to visit her?
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I can fly anywhere I like and deliver something as a favor. It is the "for hire" part that is the rub.
 
alfadog said:
I can fly anywhere I like and deliver something as a favor. It is the "for hire" part that is the rub.
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And I can be thankful to anyone I like who does me favors. Maybe in wishing you luck I further your education with a couple hours flight training?
 
Ron Levy said:
Because the duck is quacking loudly.
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I hear ya. What if they told the kid to be on the look out for any GA private plane going to the destination airport and if he could get them to bring it for free they'd mail the kid a reward?
 
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