Can a GA pilot with only PPL agree to ferry some random individual in exchange for sharing costs?

BoulderBill

BoulderBill

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BoulderBill
It's my understanding that a pilot with a PPL can share the cost of a flight with passengers, but can't receive "compensation" for ferrying passengers. What I'm not so clear on is whether it's legit for a pilot to agree to ferry an unknown individual from point A to point B on a specific date just in exchange for the cost sharing. Is that considered a "charter" so the pilot would be required to have a CPL? If so, what's the characteristic that makes that the case? The scheduled nature of the flight? The fact that the unknown individual is eliciting the services of the pilot?
 
You need a common purpose, aka going somewhere together. So no.


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gsengle said:
You need a common purpose, aka going somewhere together. So no.
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What if the pilot is trying to build time and the cross-country route happens to fit his/her mission? In that case flying from Point A to Point B is a shared, common purpose in some sense.
 
But only one of you can log the time unless one is acting as a safety pilot and the other is flying under the hood, or one is a CFI...


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gsengle said:
But only one of you can log the time unless one is acting as a safety pilot and the other is flying under the hood, or one is a CFI...
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Challenged said:
I believe in the FAA's mind building time is considered a form of payment, so NCD.
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Sorry, I must not have been very clear. What I meant was: Suppose Person 1, who is a pilot (PPL), wants to build time and would be psyched to cut the cost of a flight here and there by sharing costs (rental, fuel) with someone else. Suppose Person 2, who may or may not be a pilot, is trying to get from Point A to Point B, a convenient, valuable route for Person 1's logbook. Person 2 doesn't care about time building.
 
BoulderBill said:
Sorry, I must not have been very clear. What I meant was: Suppose Person 1, who is a pilot (PPL), wants to build time and would be psyched to cut the cost of a flight here and there by sharing costs (rental, fuel) with someone else. Suppose Person 2, who may or may not be a pilot, is trying to get from Point A to Point B, a convenient, valuable route for Person 1's logbook. Person 2 doesn't care about time building.
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Word it any way you like. You are being compensated for flying someone some where without a commercial ticket. It's illegal.
 
If you two want to fly somewhere together and share costs thats your business.
If you decide to come back early and he doesn't want to...and chooses to find his own way back, thats your business.
You can only share the cost of the one trip there though. Not the return.
If you're being honest about it...thats probably not the case. But that does happen.
 
No matter how you ask it the answer is that in the eyes of the FAA this is not kosher. You can do it and justify it in your mind anyway you like and that may be OK right up until it is not.
 
I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm just looking for clarification. I'm not yet a pilot myself.

So, say I have a pilot friend who is going for a local flight. He offers for me to tag along. I offer to pay half the expenses, and he accepts. This is legit, correct? I guess I'm trying to figure out where the area turns grey and where the "compensation" card is pulled.
 
My point about justification wasn't a shot at you. Just a statement you can do pretty much whatever you want the issue becomes when there is a problem. Someone reports you, you have an accident or the FAA in some other way gets wind of what you are doing.

There really isn't much grey area with out using some sort of mental gymnastics to get there and again I am not against it just know that no matter what you think is right and even if it makes sense to you the FAA may not see it that way. You also can't just look at the regulation you have to look at other guidance and clarifications put out by the FAA in response to the regulation.

Although I can't for the life of my understand why people write asking for clarification. I don't think I have ever seen a single response that goes the way the writer was hoping.

You can certainly do the scenario you describe above (the local flight one) and be within the regs. Here is how (in my opinion) the FAA would interpret your initial question (the point A to B one) though: Can I as a private pilot act as a mini-airline and perform that service at a reduced price so I can build time?
 
If you turn yourself into a bootleg air taxi, the FAA is going to get mad at you. It breaks their rules, and much as I hate to admit it, they are probably making the right call.

If, perhaps, on a rare occasion, someone you know asks you to fly them somewhere and splits the costs, no one is going to notice, or even care. If you prang the airplane and/or someone gets hurt, and the arrangement is revealed to not be a common purpose, they'll likely hang you. So, be discreet, be quiet, observe the spirit of the rules, if not the letter.

I flew a relative home once; we had a plausible common purpose (visiting family). It may not have been that was in fact our common purpose, but it would have stood up to scrutiny. I'm semi-confident the FAA would have understood the difficulty in maintaining it wasn't a common purpose, and would have stayed hands-off. And my family member handed me cash for half the fuel.

If I flew a stranger home, or a work acquaintance, I'd better have a reason to be going there myself. Two concert tickets would be good; two tickets to a game, or a tractor pull, maybe. Dropping him at the FBO and heading out? Not so much.

I was flying for a volunteer organization, and by some twisted logic, some of our flying time we were NOT supposed to log, since the flying time itself was considered "compensation". I know the rule was ignored nearly universally, and I doubt the FAA gave a rats-butt - they had bigger fish to fry. The FAA made the rule determination, the volunteer group announced it, and we all ignored it. It worked out for everyone - FAA had their CYA, as did the volunteer org, and we logged our PIC time.
 
Sundancer said:
If I flew a stranger home, or a work acquaintance, I'd better have a reason to be going there myself. Two concert tickets would be good; two tickets to a game, or a tractor pull, maybe. Dropping him at the FBO and heading out? Not so much.
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This has been clarified intelligently--both of you need to go to the same location, but not for the same purpose. You could visit family, go to a ballgame (your nephew's little league counts) or meet a friend at a favorite restaurant, and the $-sharing buddy can be at the tractor pull, looking at junk cars or photographing local wildlife. Your common purpose does not have to extend beyond going to the same city or area.

Dissimilar reasons for going to the same place should extend to the other guy making a one way trip, as long as he only shares the cost on the leg he accompanies you on.

CLARIFICATION: "Common purpose" doesn't mean that someone, even a friend, needs to visit City X, and you have the ability to fly him/her there. If the pilot's only reason for visiting X is to take someone there while defraying the cost of the flight using that someone's money, there is no common purpose, and the pilot needs at least a Commercial certificate and maybe a Part 135 Charter Operation . . . The CPL is much, much easier and cheaper to get . . .
 
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If its occasional and casual, like one time, first time, The FAA isn't going to go after someone that gets money from a fare from a passenger. If you start advertising, they will stop you. If its word of mouth and you do it a LOT, they will stop you.

If you are golfing buddies, he can pay 1/2 the fuel and oil. That much is ok. Not JUST golfing of course, any "common purpose".

The thing to do is get your CFI and make it instruction. Then you run into insurance problems. Regular insurance doesnt cover instruction. And if you are renting, you cant instruct because of the rental agreement. You have to instruct for the FBO that rents the plane. They get a cut.

Start a Part 135 air taxi service. They are great ways to make a fortune. Put in 2 million, and take out 1 million. So you have to have a million to spare. Maybe you can sell it for 1 million and break even.

It would probably be easier to start a discount airline. Get a Stock Market Billionaire to finance it!
 
You're letting the other guy hire you, at a discounted rate, to fly you from A to B.
 
So because he couldn't charge his acquaintance to fly him to Chicago, our hero went on to start a Global International Airline! Hooter Air! Teton of the West! Whose moto is "If you don't shut up, we'll tie you up!" (the Stewardesses all carry whips!)

Im really on a roll now. Im playing guitar (mean redition of "Pride and Joy") live for some groupies and taking a break and posting on POA!! BABY!
 
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Hank S said:
This has been clarified intelligently--both of you need to go to the same location, but not for the same purpose. You could visit family, go to a ballgame (your nephew's little league counts) or meet a friend at a favorite restaurant, and the $-sharing buddy can be at the tractor pull, looking at junk cars or photographing local wildlife. Your common purpose does not have to extend beyond going to the same city or area.

Dissimilar reasons for going to the same place should extend to the other guy making a one way trip, as long as he only shares the cost on the leg he accompanies you on.

CLARIFICATION: "Common purpose" doesn't mean that someone, even a friend, needs to visit City X, and you have the ability to fly him/her there. If the pilot's only reason for visiting X is to take someone there while defraying the cost of the flight using that someone's money, there is no common purpose, and the pilot needs at least a Commercial certificate and maybe a Part 135 Charter Operation . . . The CPL is much, much easier and cheaper to get . . .
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Clearer, thanks. . .
 
So it sounds like my scheme is a no go. And now I have to start an airline. I'm fine with that.

@coloradobluesky how long is your set?
 
Not to beat a dead horse anymore, but even if the pilot was a commercial pilot it would still be a no go
 
BoulderBill said:
Cool. This is all clear as mud now.
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Here's how, as newly minted private pilot and soon-to-be owner/operator of a plane, I am going to operate:

* If I have a friend and we decide to go visit a place together and decide it would be fun/feasible to take the plane, we'll split the costs.
* If I have a friend who is visiting their family over the weekend and they ask or I offer to fly them, I'm not going to bring up costs at all. That's on me because I want to fly them and I want to build time (and have a "real" mission).
* If a friend of a friend hears I fly to a city occasionally and has a reason to go, conveniently, at the same time I'm going, I'm either going to tell them to eff off or I'll take them and again won't bring up the costs.

I guess my MO is to only split costs with people I know and then only when we want to take a trip together and decide that flying is our mode of transportation. If the trip would still happen regardless, with the same passengers, and it just so happens that we'll take a plane instead of a car... THAT's when you split costs.

If for any reason you would not take the trip if flying was not an option, you don't split costs. If the purpose of taking a trip is because you're flying, you don't split costs.

I could be way conservative here. I'm also pretty certain that if flying a friend for fun and they offer to help pay afterwards and you accept on occasion that you wouldn't end up in trouble. But if you're that concerned about the costs then maybe it's not the right time/hobby/idea.
 
I have no intention of charging anyone for gas, and just want to understand the rules better. So let me throw a few scenarios at all of you:

Scenario 1
My daughter wants to go to San Diego and stay for a week. I offer to fly her, so that I can make my first IFR flight to San Diego IFR for the first time, and shoot an approach into KSAN. I will drop her off and depart within the hour. We both "want" to go to San Diego, but not for the same reasons, and it wasn't "my" idea to go. Furthermore, I likely would not fly to San Diego solo just for the experience, but she doesn't want to drive, so I decide I "want" to go.

Scenario 2:
Same as above, but I decide that my official "mission" will be to visit some dinner I saw on "Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives", before returning home. Again, I likely would not make the trip had she not said she wanted to go to San Diego.

Scenario 3:
My wife wants to go to a mega-mall in some city an hour's flight away. I have no interest in going, but she doesn't want to drive. I don't have the money for the trip in my "flying budget", so she says we can afford to pay for the gas out of the household budget, because we didn't go out to eat so many times this month. The flight was not my idea, and I wouldn't be flying to that city on my own, and if she cancels, I'm not going.

Scenario 4:
I fly to Monterey at least a few times per month for various reasons. (A 1hr hop.) To go to my favorite eateries; to visit friends; for doctor's appointments; and sometimes just to shoot approaches in IMC. A friend knows I make these flights, and says he wants to tag along, and be dropped off to visit family. (He will find his own way back.) It would be "my" idea to go, and will be going whether he goes or not.

Scenario 5:
A friend and his wife want to go to Half Moon Bay for lunch at a restaurant within walking distance of the airport. They know that I fly there to eat on occasion, and ask if I am going anytime soon. I have no immediate plans to do so, but am more than willing to go any day they like. They pick a day, and I decide, "Hey, I want to go to Half Moon Bay for lunch," on that same day. Since it is close by (unlike San Diego) I would likely go even if they cancelled. But it was not originally "my" idea to go on "that" particular day.

Conclusion?
It seems like maybe the FAA's idea of "common purpose" is "It was my idea to go" or "I was already planning on going", AND "I would go with or without the other party." Both are gray areas that I don't think I would want to venture into unless I REALLY trusted my passengers not to rat me out. (And I don't trust ANYONE that much.)
 
Rykymus said:
I have no intention of charging anyone for gas, and just want to understand the rules better. So let me throw a few scenarios at all of you:

Scenario 1
My daughter wants to go to San Diego and stay for a week. I offer to fly her, so that I can make my first IFR flight to San Diego IFR for the first time, and shoot an approach into KSAN. I will drop her off and depart within the hour. We both "want" to go to San Diego, but not for the same reasons, and it wasn't "my" idea to go. Furthermore, I likely would not fly to San Diego solo just for the experience, but she doesn't want to drive, so I decide I "want" to go.

-No

Scenario 2:
Same as above, but I decide that my official "mission" will be to visit some dinner I saw on "Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives", before returning home. Again, I likely would not make the trip had she not said she wanted to go to San Diego.

No

Scenario 3:
My wife wants to go to a mega-mall in some city an hour's flight away. I have no interest in going, but she doesn't want to drive. I don't have the money for the trip in my "flying budget", so she says we can afford to pay for the gas out of the household budget, because we didn't go out to eat so many times this month. The flight was not my idea, and I wouldn't be flying to that city on my own, and if she cancels, I'm not going.

Yes, effectively you and your wife are one person (shared money)

Scenario 4:
I fly to Monterey at least a few times per month for various reasons. (A 1hr hop.) To go to my favorite eateries; to visit friends; for doctor's appointments; and sometimes just to shoot approaches in IMC. A friend knows I make these flights, and says he wants to tag along, and be dropped off to visit family. (He will find his own way back.) It would be "my" idea to go, and will be going whether he goes or not.

Yes

Scenario 5:
A friend and his wife want to go to Half Moon Bay for lunch at a restaurant within walking distance of the airport. They know that I fly there to eat on occasion, and ask if I am going anytime soon. I have no immediate plans to do so, but am more than willing to go any day they like. They pick a day, and I decide, "Hey, I want to go to Half Moon Bay for lunch," on that same day. Since it is close by (unlike San Diego) I would likely go even if they cancelled. But it was not originally "my" idea to go on "that" particular day.

Probably not

Conclusion?
It seems like maybe the FAA's idea of "common purpose" is "It was my idea to go" or "I was already planning on going", AND "I would go with or without the other party." Both are gray areas that I don't think I would want to venture into unless I REALLY trusted my passengers not to rat me out. (And I don't trust ANYONE that much.)
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Isn't the final answer you can't be a FERRY pilot without a Commercial ticket but you can be a FAIRY pilot with only a Student ticket?
 
Is this per flight or aggregate. So I fly 100 passengers and don't charge how may can I charge after that....:D
 
DFH65 said:
Is this per flight or aggregate. So I fly 100 passengers and don't charge how may can I charge after that....:D
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You're aggregating wrong. It should be:

So I fly 100 passengers and don't charge, how much can I charge after that....
 
This just in: A man was arrested today by the Federal Aviation Police after it was discovered that he flew a passenger to Boulder Colorado and the passenger paid for half of the fuel. Details are sketchy and still coming in. We will keep you updated on this heinous crime as we get more details. Now, back to weather with Al Sleet.
 
We interrupt your regularly scheduled program to bring you this update to the Boulder Pilot tragedy - it seems that the passenger paid the pilot more than half of the fuel costs and tipped the pilot with lunch. Jury selection will begin in earnest and rumors are spreading that the death sentence will be sought. Now back to sports with Brad Ballhandler.
 
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