"Call this number when landed advise when ready to copy"

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vince

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Vince
So I had this dreaded request today during my IR training. I was flying into STL with my CFII and I botched my radio work and the approach controller told me to call him. He chewed me out for not reading back to him and not getting back to him (I honestly didn't hear). My CFII was just grinning until I got that call. He said he's never heard of someone being told to call in for shoddy radio work. I explained I'm a student when I called the number and basically just got slapped on the hand. So am I PIC when training? We were on an IFR flight plan in my instructors name doesn't that mean he is PIC?

This was my first time flying into STL and I've only just started my IR training. My CFII thought it would be a good experience for me.
 
It sounds like your CFII wanted you to see first hand what happens when you fail to maintain an active scan while IFR. If you neglect your radios and thus miss calls, ATC gets crankier the closer you get to a conflict or critical turn. Enough missed calls or requests for re-issuance of a clearance and ATC starts wondering if you are in distress. In any case, your CFII was PIC, and technically in charge of the flight while you were IFR. Instead of prompting you in the plane, he let you drown on your own.

Kind of a jerk move to prove a point.

On a lighter note, congratulations. You had a brief glimpse of what training as an ATC is like. :D
 
MarkZ said:
It sounds like your CFII wanted you to see first hand what happens when you fail to maintain an active scan while IFR. If you neglect your radios and thus miss calls, ATC gets crankier the closer you get to a conflict or critical turn. Enough missed calls or requests for re-issuance of a clearance and ATC starts wondering if you are in distress. In any case, your CFII was PIC, and technically in charge of the flight while you were IFR. Instead of prompting you in the plane, he let you drown on your own.

Kind of a jerk move to prove a point.

On a lighter note, congratulations. You had a brief glimpse of what training as an ATC is like. :D
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I'm not sure I'd say it was a jerk move, as long as you were not in danger or causing a conflict, I'd say you learned a very valuable lesson.

As long as there was no danger to you or others, I'd say kudos to your CFI
 
I would've probably chewed out the controller back if he was annoyed about a student being a student.

That said, as a CFI I let my student be a student, but won't go so far as to let him/her interfere with ATC. If he got a phone number, it was probably pretty bad.
 
vince said:
So I had this dreaded request today during my IR training. I was flying into STL with my CFII and I botched my radio work and the approach controller told me to call him. He chewed me out for not reading back to him and not getting back to him (I honestly didn't hear). My CFII was just grinning until I got that call. He said he's never heard of someone being told to call in for shoddy radio work. I explained I'm a student when I called the number and basically just got slapped on the hand. So am I PIC when training? We were on an IFR flight plan in my instructors name doesn't that mean he is PIC?

This was my first time flying into STL and I've only just started my IR training. My CFII thought it would be a good experience for me.
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Vince

Consider getting a copy of Comm1 IFR radio simulator. It will help you significantly.
That said, if a call from ATC is not acknowledged they should not expect you to follow it nor berate you for not following it. I have been in that exact situation which should be considered a lost comm.

Understand that these guys have bad days too and when a pilot - novice or otherwise - does not possess radio communication skill and or cannot comply with instructions it will make their job harder.
 
MarkZ said:
It sounds like your CFII wanted you to see first hand what happens when you fail to maintain an active scan while IFR. If you neglect your radios and thus miss calls, ATC gets crankier the closer you get to a conflict or critical turn. Enough missed calls or requests for re-issuance of a clearance and ATC starts wondering if you are in distress.
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Yep. It seems like you missed several calls and that's why ATC got annoyed with you. IFR communications are extremely important. If you get a "climb and maintain XXXX" and you don't acknowledge it, it can be very problematic for you and other traffic in the area. On one of my first IFR training flights, I tracked a Victor airway off of the wrong radial and was about 20 degrees off course and got chewed out by ATC. Learn and move on. Good luck with the rest of your training!
 
jordane93 said:
Yep. It seems like you missed several calls and that's why ATC got annoyed with you. IFR communications are extremely important. If you get a "climb and maintain XXXX" and you don't acknowledge it, it can be very problematic for you and other traffic in the area. On one of my first IFR training flights, I tracked a Victor airway off of the wrong radial and was about 20 degrees off course and got chewed out by ATC. Learn and move on. Good luck with the rest of your training!
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Yes I know I'm not really comfortable with the high volume radio work but this particular situation was made worse by a stuck mic. I blew through an altitude too by 300 feet and the controller just about had an aneurysm it seemed.
 
Everyone is a nerd about something. I listen to LiveATC on the way to work because that's the kind of nerd I am. But I'm confident with comm as a result.
 
vince said:
So I had this dreaded request today during my IR training. I was flying into STL with my CFII and I botched my radio work and the approach controller told me to call him. He chewed me out for not reading back to him and not getting back to him (I honestly didn't hear). My CFII was just grinning until I got that call. He said he's never heard of someone being told to call in for shoddy radio work. I explained I'm a student when I called the number and basically just got slapped on the hand. So am I PIC when training? We were on an IFR flight plan in my instructors name doesn't that mean he is PIC?

This was my first time flying into STL and I've only just started my IR training. My CFII thought it would be a good experience for me.
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I'm not real clear on what you are asking? You messed up your radio work and you want to blame the instructor?
How did you log the hours? Did you log PIC time for all the other hours of training?
Now, for the positive comments. You should realize a need to brush up on talking with ATC. Perhaps a few ground lessons on what to expect from the controller, what the controller will expect from you and proper phraseology will help. IFR Communication is mostly repetitive requests and responses at key points of the flight. Learn what to expect ahead of time and the communications becomes much easier.
 
If you were consistently having this issue, i know a few instructors that would call the tower and set this up in advance to make a point to you.

Brian
 
vince said:
My CFII thought it would be a good experience for me.
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Your instructor's idea of funny doesn't match mine. Controllers have very good reasons for wanting timely readbacks (not to mention that there are plenty of reasons why it's in your own interest), and when they don't hear it, they get concerned you didn't get the instruction. Further, in very busy airspace, controllers don't have the time/bandwidth to be reading anyone an instruction, waiting, and then having to read it again. If your instructor heard the call and you didn't respond, that's time for the instructor to step in and say something, either to you or to the controller.

As a working instrument instructor, I'm well aware that IR trainees can be a bit overwhelmed, especially in a busy terminal area, so early in their training I'm ready to step in and help with comm while they're still learning the procedures. Of course, if it's near the end of training, I won't be satisfied with the trainee's performance if ATC has to say everything twice, but that's a matter between me and the trainee, and I won't leave ATC hanging unanswered.

All things considered, if you were having repeated problems hearing ATC instructions to you, then you need to go back to a lower intensity environment until you are good enough at your procedures that you have more attention free to listen to the radio before returning to a high-intensity environment. Another possibility is doing some practice in that high-intensity area having the instructor fly the plane while you handle the radios (comm and nav) and tell the instructor what to do.
 
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I find it more difficult to interact with ATC when there's an instructor in the plane than when I'm alone. The instructor's job is to talk, and it's unavoidable for him to talk sometimes at the same time as ATC. So I often miss what the controller said when I've got an instructor, but not when I'm alone.
 
BTW, since your instructor was PIC, your instructor should have made that phone call and taken the heat from ATC.
 
I would concur with the Comm 1 idea. Also I think your CFII should have moved you to a less hectic environment until you get more used to the calls. When I flew into MDW, my CFII handled done of the calls when it got heavy. Bottom line for me anyway, it took practice. Just my 2 cents.
 
The sad thing is that I'd bet good money I know the one you were talking to... Don't let this one time leave a bad taste in your mouth about STL.
 
Cruiser said:
I'm not real clear on what you are asking? You messed up your radio work and you want to blame the instructor?
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Well... yes actually I do kinda. He was finding my radio calls amusing and didn't step in to help. When I was doing my private training my instructor there would step in when necessary. When it got to the point where I was told to call a number I think he let it go too far he should have stepped in.

Afterwards I thought about it and what if I had something more serious happen? Why should I be the one who is affected? I don't pretend to be IR rated. I am not. That is why I am taking the training. HE should have been the one to make the call. The IFR plan was in HIS name. As far as anyone is concerned he was the one flying however it was logged. I pretty steamed about it now after pondering on it. Think I'm going to get a new instructor.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
The sad thing is that I'd bet good money I know the one you were talking to... Don't let this one time leave a bad taste in your mouth about STL.
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I don't mind the guy I spoke to was pretty cool about when I told him I was a student. I had a stuck mic at one point. Just hope I didn't drop any F bombs! :eek:
 
vince said:
Yes I know I'm not really comfortable with the high volume radio work but this particular situation was made worse by a stuck mic. I blew through an altitude too by 300 feet and the controller just about had an aneurysm it seemed.
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If you're on an IFR clearance (vs practice approaches with ATC under VFR) a 300 ft altitude bust could spell big trouble for the controller.
 
Ron Levy said:
BTW, since your instructor was PIC, your instructor should have made that phone call and taken the heat from ATC.
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YES! You are right I'm going to call him out on that.
 
vince said:
This was my first time flying into STL and I've only just started my IR training. My CFII thought it would be a good experience for me.
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Anyone else slightly bothered by the idea of bringing someone who "only just started" IFR training into a busy terminal area with rapid fire communications?
 
vince said:
When it got to the point where I was told to call a number I think he let it go too far he should have stepped in.
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Agreed -- the thing speaks for itself.
Afterwards I thought about it and what if I had something more serious happen? Why should I be the one who is affected? I don't pretend to be IR rated. I am not. That is why I am taking the training. HE should have been the one to make the call. The IFR plan was in HIS name. As far as anyone is concerned he was the one flying however it was logged.
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In this situation, the FAA considers the instructor to be the one responsible when something like this happens, not the trainee.
I pretty steamed about it now after pondering on it. Think I'm going to get a new instructor.
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If this is the only issue you've had with him, you might just want to have a sit-down with him to discuss responsibility in the cockpit. Make clear that you don't think what happened was as amusing as he apparently did, and that you expect a more professional performance in the future. If you're satisfied with that talk, stick with him. If not, there are a lot of other instructor-fish in the flight training sea.
 
gismo said:
If you're on an IFR clearance (vs practice approaches with ATC under VFR) a 300 ft altitude bust could spell big trouble for the controller.
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And for your instructor, too, since that's who would eat the flight violation in this case.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Anyone else slightly bothered by the idea of bringing someone who "only just started" IFR training into a busy terminal area with rapid fire communications?
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Yeah -- me, too. I didn't catch that "only just started" part. Going into a place like that would come only near the end of IR training with me unless we had no other choice due to location inside such an area and weather such that we couldn't pop out VFR, do our work outside, and then fly back in when the training for the day was complete. And I'd be controller the situation a lot more than Vince's instructor appears to have done -- no 300-foot altitude busts before I'd intervene. The more I consider this, the more I think Vince's instructor isn't very smart, professional, or responsible.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Anyone else slightly bothered by the idea of bringing someone who "only just started" IFR training into a busy terminal area with rapid fire communications?
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Yes. My instructor and I didn't even talk about IFR XC's until I was 3/4 of the done with training. I remember my first few lessons were just about developing my instrument scan and making turns, climbs, descents, constant speed descents, etc by reference to the instruments.
 
Experiential education is one thing; setting a student up for failure is another thing, and contrary to the learning process. You said you're early in the training process; sink or swim is not appropriate at that point. Flying in to a busy class B is generally not a great idea for a new instrument student still trying to figure things out.

If I were your instructor, you would not be getting 300 feet off. 150 ft I'm saying something, and at 200ft I'm correcting for you. It's my ticket after all. If you're consistently having trouble with BAI or multitasking, we'll take a step back; you need to master the basics before moving to the advanced.

Further, I'll let some stuff go, but if you're missing required read-backs or radio calls, I'm going to step in. If he's talking so much that you're missing calls, then he needs to shut up.

I agree with Ron as well, the CFII should have made that call.

Last point, while the OP can log PIC, for obvious reasons he is not acting PIC. That is the CFII.
 
Vince--sorry to hear about your experience. Don't let it get you rattled, live, learn, and you'll be better for it.

Now I am curious...were you going into KSTL or KSUS? Around what time would you say this happened? And last question...were you on 126.5?
 
Lawbillik said:
Vince--sorry to hear about your experience. Don't let it get you rattled, live, learn, and you'll be better for it.

Now I am curious...were you going into KSTL or KSUS? Around what time would you say this happened? And last question...were you on 126.5?
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First post.... Welcome to POA...:cheers:.


Hmmm... I am betting "someone" has LiveATC tapes...:eek:;)
 
Haha just realized that was my first post! Ive been a member of POA for years, I appreciate the kind welcome!

That may or may not be the case...
More likely than not if he was talking to approach from a small piston single the scanner that hits frequency will only pick up the controller half of the convo....that said there is only one way to find out!
 
I think your instructor should have manned up and made the phone call. You as a new IFR student have a lot to take in. Now if your instructor had mentioned to you before about the radio calls, he shouldn't have taken you into Class B yet.
 
I can't believe your instructor let you make the phone call. Doesn't he realize that it was his ticket on the line? Why would he let someone else speak on his behalf. I'm also surprised that once you told the controller you were an instrument student, he didn't ask for you to put the instructor on the phone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I was thinking it could be worse... instead of the dreaded call, I once got balled out on the air.

VFR flight into White Plains, I missed a call during a pretty busy moment. Maybe missed it twice. When I did get it, I got it. Something like, "Listen, don't come flying in here unless you can keep up....(ears burning, mind frozen)". Maybe it's better that way, better to get your knuckles rapped than to be sent to the principal's office.

Of course this was many years ago when headphones still seemed optional. I can't even imagine how I heard anything then. Very old school.
 
Well I told my instructor that he should have made the call since he was technically PIC and it was filed under his name. Let's just say that conversation didn't go so well. :rolleyes2: He says that we're both PIC and it was my error therefore my call to make and that I must "toughen up" and accept my fault, and learn from it. He said if he should have made the call then why did the controller not ask to speak to him when I said I was a student? I did not have a response to that.
 
vince said:
Well I told my instructor that he should have made the call since he was technically PIC and it was filed under his name. Let's just say that conversation didn't go so well. :rolleyes2: He says that we're both PIC and it was my error therefore my call to make and that I must "toughen up" and accept my fault, and learn from it. He said if he should have made the call then why did the controller not ask to speak to him when I said I was a student? I did not have a response to that.
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Sounds to me that even if you wanted to stay with this instructor you should move on. The water is polluted. Little benefit in continuing the course.
 
vince said:
Well I told my instructor that he should have made the call since he was technically PIC and it was filed under his name. Let's just say that conversation didn't go so well. :rolleyes2: He says that we're both PIC and it was my error therefore my call to make and that I must "toughen up" and accept my fault, and learn from it. He said if he should have made the call then why did the controller not ask to speak to him when I said I was a student? I did not have a response to that.
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Uhhh... no. :no: You were not "both PIC". There is no such thing. Either he was PIC, or you were. If you were on an IFR clearance, and you are not instrument rated, then he was PIC, period. (the alternative is that the flight was illegal, and... well, let's not go there)

This instructor is either confused or else is trying to snow you to cover his a$$. Best to fire him NOW, and find someone else.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your instructor's idea of funny doesn't match mine. Controllers have very good reasons for wanting timely readbacks (not to mention that there are plenty of reasons why it's in your own interest), and when they don't hear it, they get concerned you didn't get the instruction. Further, in very busy airspace, controllers don't have the time/bandwidth to be reading anyone an instruction, waiting, and then having to read it again. If your instructor heard the call and you didn't respond, that's time for the instructor to step in and say something, either to you or to the controller.

As a working instrument instructor, I'm well aware that IR trainees can be a bit overwhelmed, especially in a busy terminal area, so early in their training I'm ready to step in and help with comm while they're still learning the procedures. Of course, if it's near the end of training, I won't be satisfied with the trainee's performance if ATC has to say everything twice, but that's a matter between me and the trainee, and I won't leave ATC hanging unanswered.

All things considered, if you were having repeated problems hearing ATC instructions to you, then you need to go back to a lower intensity environment until you are good enough at your procedures that you have more attention free to listen to the radio before returning to a high-intensity environment. Another possibility is doing some practice in that high-intensity area having the instructor fly the plane while you handle the radios (comm and nav) and tell the instructor what to do.
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Well said.

In the beginning of my simple(seems simple now) primary training, my instructor stepped in on the radio if I had a stuck tongue.
 
Time to change instructors.
 
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