Call signs at untowered airport

[MSmith]

I know we've done this before, but I have a new side to ask about.

My instructor swears that the AIM specifically prohibits using your callsign ("Cherokee 1AB") at an uncontrolled airport, in the interest of keeping radio calls as short as possible.

I grabbed my copy over the weekend and couldn't find any such thing. In fact, I found a few places where they explain how to "construct" your callsign.

At our uncontrolled airport, the behavioral consensus is not to use call signs beyond aircraft type (at least, that's what they do). The thought seems to be that nobody is gonna read a number off a plane in the air, and we should be able to see anybody in front of us so multiple planes of the same type don't get confusing. It works - there are not a huge number of incidents caused by this. Also, our CTAF is shared by 3 airports in a 5SM mile area, so it gets busy.

What do you say?

 

[ScottM]

I know we've done this before, but I have a new side to ask about.

My instructor swears that the AIM specifically prohibits using your callsign ("Cherokee 1AB") at an uncontrolled airport, in the interest of keeping radio calls as short as possible.

I grabbed my copy over the weekend and couldn't find any such thing. In fact, I found a few places where they explain how to "construct" your callsign.

At our uncontrolled airport, the behavioral consensus is not to use call signs beyond aircraft type (at least, that's what they do). The thought seems to be that nobody is gonna read a number off a plane in the air, and we should be able to see anybody in front of us so multiple planes of the same type don't get confusing. It works - there are not a huge number of incidents caused by this. Also, our CTAF is shared by 3 airports in a 5SM mile area, so it gets busy.

What do you say?

So what callsigns do you use? just 'Cherokee', Cessna, Mooney'?? What happend when you have three Cherokees in the pattern?

 

[poadeleted3]

I say your instructor is full of beans, and should read the AIM. I've not been able to find any such thing in there, having had this same conversation with my last instructor (who I happen to have a great deal of respect for).

If I'm hearing 5 people say "Cessna downwind runway 27, Perk Valley" then hear someone say "Cessna base runway 27, Perk Valley," are there still 5 planes on downwind, plus someone else who just turned base, or are there 4 planes on downwind? Now, if folks take the one tenth of a second to add a number (say, for example) "Skyhawk 18E downwind Perk Valley), you can do a better job of keeping track of who is where. I mean, how darn long does it take to say "18E" "85J" or whatever? True, eyes are the number one tool you should be using to find planes, but the radio is an important one also. And if one is worried about clogging the airwaves, it's my opinion that you may as well not transmit instead of sending forth useless information such as "Cessna on downwind" in a pattern full of Cessnas on downwind.

 

[Areeda]

The only thing I've found that specifically addresses this is the AOPA Safety Advisor "Operations at Nontowered Airports" http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa08.pdf which says:

When you transmit, begin by stating the name of the airport, followed by the moel of your aircraft (Skyhawk, Cherokee, Bonanza, etc.) and the last three alphanumerics of the aircraft N Number. State your intentions and end by repeating the name of the airport.

Joe

 

[MSmith]

So what callsigns do you use? just 'Cherokee', Cessna, Mooney'?? What happend when you have three Cherokees in the pattern?

Our pattern is only at 800 feet AGL on a 3900 foot runway. Not much room for more than 4-5 planes in the pattern (even that is crowded).

Generally, when we see this happening and the two planes are anywhere near each other we'll add "Number 2 behind the other Cherokee" or "behind the Cherokee turning base".

When you can only fit 1 plane on crosswind, maybe 2 on downwind, one on base, and one on final/runway, there just aren't a lot of slots to get confused.

Also, we have a right pattern on one direction, so if people are using both directions at once the whole pattern is in trouble!

 

[Missa]

In general, I use the whole thing on the intial call. Archer 86G 10 SW inbound... then use either the numers or type depending on the congestion the rest of the time.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Cessna XYZ, Cherokee 123, etc.
Not too much, not too little.

 

[TMetzinger]

I agree with other posters that your instructor is making it up as he goes along as far as it being "prohibited" in the AIM.

I find that having the end of the tail number helps when the airplane has 12" numbers and the pattern is busy.

 

[EdFred]

I will call "Cherokee 12R" on initial pattern call and additional info if necessary. I flew into BUU a couple weeks back, and I called with "BUU traffic Cherokee 12R is downwind behind the Cessna, BUU." Also worked heading into Lake City for a Mem Day fly in last year.

Prohibited? Not likely.

 

[gismo]

I know we've done this before, but I have a new side to ask about.

My instructor swears that the AIM specifically prohibits using your callsign ("Cherokee 1AB") at an uncontrolled airport, in the interest of keeping radio calls as short as possible.

I grabbed my copy over the weekend and couldn't find any such thing. In fact, I found a few places where they explain how to "construct" your callsign.

At our uncontrolled airport, the behavioral consensus is not to use call signs beyond aircraft type (at least, that's what they do). The thought seems to be that nobody is gonna read a number off a plane in the air, and we should be able to see anybody in front of us so multiple planes of the same type don't get confusing. It works - there are not a huge number of incidents caused by this. Also, our CTAF is shared by 3 airports in a 5SM mile area, so it gets busy.

What do you say?

I'm fairly certain there's nothing in the AIM or any other officlal government publication that "prohibits" the use of a full callsign. Of course it is good procedure to shorten yours when using a busy frequency, but only as part of the whole concept of minimizing wasted bandwidth. BTW IIRC, the FCC requires at least one transmission of your full ID per "contact", but I rarely comply with that.

 

[Skip Miller]

Cessna XYZ, Cherokee 123, etc.
Not too much, not too little.

I used to fly a Cherokee that had a distinctive color: half way between Cub Yellow and International Orange. Barry Stratton will remember it well!

I used "Yellow Cherokee" in the pattern because it set me apart from the other Cherokees and the using the color (when distinctive) was helpful to others in the pattern.

-Skip

 

[gismo]

I used to fly a Cherokee that had a distinctive color: half way between Cub Yellow and International Orange. Barry Stratton will remember it well!

I used "Yellow Cherokee" in the pattern because it set me apart from the other Cherokees and the using the color (when distinctive) was helpful to others in the pattern.

-Skip

I don't know about you, but if I'm close enough to another airplane to tell the color I'm way to close for comfort unless we are flying formation. With my aging eyes, any airplane more than a quarter mile away looks white, grey, or black.

 

[wbarnhill]

Kinda an aside, but isn't the AIM a set of guidelines, not rules? So wouldn't the AIM never actually "prohibit" anything? If something was prohibited, wouldn't it be in the FAR?

 

[TMetzinger]

uh-oh, the "AIM is not regulatory" debate could resurface!.

Technically, you are correct, however, the FAA has taken action against folks for careless and reckless ops in the past, and used the fact that they were operating contrary to "advice" in the AIM as evidence of carelessness/recklessness. In those cases the action, when appealed, was upheld by the Admin Law Judge.

Also, see the thread on using IFR GPS in lieu of DME - this is information that only appears in the AIM and some advisory circulars - nowhere in the FARs, but you're expected to comply with it.

 

[MSmith]

Good point.

Change "prohibit" to "suggest not using" in my original post.

 

[wbarnhill]

uh-oh, the "AIM is not regulatory" debate could resurface!.

Technically, you are correct, however, the FAA has taken action against folks for careless and reckless ops in the past, and used the fact that they were operating contrary to "advice" in the AIM as evidence of carelessness/recklessness. In those cases the action, when appealed, was upheld by the Admin Law Judge.

Also, see the thread on using IFR GPS in lieu of DME - this is information that only appears in the AIM and some advisory circulars - nowhere in the FARs, but you're expected to comply with it.

Gotcha. *silenced*

 

[Lance F]

I use my call sign in the pattern of uncontrolled airports. I had to think about this, but the reason is simply habit. I can't fly in the system for five hours using my full call sign with countless approach and enroute controllers and then all of a sudden switch to another method.

 

[AirBaker]

...Bonanza 37Sierra...

 

[HPNPilot1200]

It depends (like many things in aviation).

For the most part, the uncontrolled fields I fly out of are quiet and don't have many Bonanzas flying around. If I'm flying the Bonanza and working the radios, I usually say just say "Bonanza." I rarely find more than one Bonanza in the pattern/inbound, but when there is more than just one Bonanza (my grandfather & I) in the pattern, I either use "Bonanza 93X" or the full callsign.

...but when I fly a Cessna Skyhawk, there could be a few flying in the area and in the pattern, so I say "Cessna Skyhawk" when it's quiet and when there are numerous skyhawks in the pattern/area I say "Skyhawk 7-3-Foxtrot" and leave it at that. I figure if it's busy enough to have a few of the same a/c type in the pattern, I better shut up and keep my transmissions brief and to the point [while still being safe]. "Springfield traffic, Cessna Skyhawk taking runway 29, northeast departure, Springfield" or "Springfield traffic, Skyhawk 7-3-Fox, left downwind runway 5, Springfield"

I have mostly always done it this way (I suppose it's because that was what I was taught and am now used to it), but when in doubt, I don't hesitate to either state my full callsign and/or clarify something I'm not sure about with another aircraft on freq.

Safe flying,
Jason

 

[igottafly]

"Student Pilot in the white plane turining downwind for some touch and goes on rwy ahhh...ummm. duhhhh..."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

When you transmit, begin by stating the name of the airport, followed by the moel of your aircraft (Skyhawk, Cherokee, Bonanza, etc.) and the last three alphanumerics of the aircraft N Number. State your intentions and end by repeating the name of the airport.

Wow... Glad to know I'm doing at least one thing right. That is exactly what I do. Differentiates multiple planes of the same type without a ton of freq time, as long as you don't have a flight school whose planes all end with "1FS" or something.

 

[wbarnhill]

"Uncontrolled airport with Cessna circling overhead, identify yourself!"

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Springfield" or "Springfield traffic, Skyhawk 7-3-Fox, left downwind runway 5, Springfield"

Jason, I like stating whether you're making left or right traffic, even at airports which have a standard pattern. Good call!

People tend to forget that if I simply announce, "Brandywine, helicopter downwind 27 Brandywine", nobody has a clue as to whether I'm flying the left pattern that the airplanes are flying, or making right traffic to stay away from the other traffic.

I learned to fly fixed-wing at the same airport Mark did. It has a non-standard pattern (right traffic 26, left for 8), and I have, as a result of that, always called out left or right, even in a standard patter, regardless of whether I'm flying fixed- or rotary-wing.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Jason, I like stating whether you're making left or right traffic, even at airports which have a standard pattern. Good call!

People tend to forget that if I simply announce, "Brandywine, helicopter downwind 27 Brandywine", nobody has a clue as to whether I'm flying the left pattern that the airplanes are flying, or making right traffic to stay away from the other traffic.

I learned to fly fixed-wing at the same airport Mark did. It has a non-standard pattern (right traffic 26, left for 8), and I have, as a result of that, always called out left or right, even in a standard patter, regardless of whether I'm flying fixed- or rotary-wing.

Thanks, Bob. My pet peeve is when pilots make 6+ second radio calls that include "uhhhs" and "ummms" and then they don't even tell you where they are, except a very vague position. I've heard aircraft call in so many times inbound and forget their direction or distance from the field, and some that forget their exact location in the pattern. Most if not all the airports I fly out of have left traffic on every runway, but I won't hesitate to state my pattern (left or right) so other aircraft know where I am. I wish they would do the same.

This is why I always think before I talk, and know what I'm going to say before I even say it. If you don't say *what* downwind you're on and for *which* runway, the transmission is fairly useless.

 

[Missa]

This is why I always think before I talk, and know what I'm going to say before I even say it. If you don't say *what* downwind you're on and for *which* runway, the transmission is fairly useless.

Unless it was just stated 1 min or less ago. If someone just called final for a runway and I've already done a downwind call for that runway, I've been known to state "<airport> cherokee base #2 <airport>", it just depends on how busy. When there are 3 in the pattern and 5 inbound it gets a bit cramped for repeating information that was just stated.

Missa

 

[gkainz]

Do you repeat your intentions on every position call, e.g. "full stop" or "touch and go" or maybe just on entering the pattern and then on final?

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Do you repeat your intentions on every position call, e.g. "full stop" or "touch and go" or maybe just on entering the pattern and then on final?

I usually state my landing intentions on the initial call, downwind, and final. Sometimes I say it in the base leg call if it's quiet. When it's *really* quiet, I may only say it on downwind or final.

If I've been doing touch-n-gos and then the next landing, I intend to do a full-stop, I'll state "full stop." At all other times, I just assume that the other pilots on the freq know I'll be making a full stop unless I state differently (ie: touch-n-go, low approach, etc).

 

[Steve]

I see a new category for the judging at Gaston's....

 

[HPNPilot1200]

Unless it was just stated 1 min or less ago. If someone just called final for a runway and I've already done a downwind call for that runway, I've been known to state "<airport> cherokee base #2 <airport>", it just depends on how busy. When there are 3 in the pattern and 5 inbound it gets a bit cramped for repeating information that was just stated.

Missa

I agree with you. Don't congest the frequency [as you said], but do realize that by stating which base leg you're on (right vs. left), you will be informing other pilots who just switched to the freq of your location. If it's busy and I can't that many words in, I'd probably do the same [as you] if/until a pilot requests clarification of my location.

I see a new category for the judging at Gaston's....

Get the tapes setup and ready to roll!

Good discussion we have going,
Jason

 

[poadeleted20]

...do realize that by stating which base leg you're on (right vs. left), you will be informing other pilots who just switched to the freq of your location.

At nontowered airports, there's only one base leg at a time for any particular runway -- the one on the published pattern side. However, I've discovered over the years (particularly at airports with right patterns), it is useful to use right/left crosswind/downwind/base as a reminder to those who didn't read the A/FD or the sectional to see whether it's right/left traffic. I must say, though, it doesn't make much sense to others when someone calls, as I've heard many times, "left/right final."

 

[ScottM]

Just so I have this right, when I am approaching a busy pattern with a lot of people making radio calls when is it ok for me to ask blindly on the frequency "Any traffic in the pattern please advise?"


or is that too much of a thread jack?

 

[MSmith]

I learned to fly fixed-wing at the same airport Mark did. It has a non-standard pattern (right traffic 26, left for 8), and I have, as a result of that, always called out left or right, even in a standard patter, regardless of whether I'm flying fixed- or rotary-wing.

Me, too - about 80-90% of the time (in other words, when I remember to).

 

[bharris]

I know we've done this before, but I have a new side to ask about.

My instructor swears that the AIM specifically prohibits using your callsign ("Cherokee 1AB") at an uncontrolled airport, in the interest of keeping radio calls as short as possible.

I grabbed my copy over the weekend and couldn't find any such thing. In fact, I found a few places where they explain how to "construct" your callsign.

At our uncontrolled airport, the behavioral consensus is not to use call signs beyond aircraft type (at least, that's what they do). The thought seems to be that nobody is gonna read a number off a plane in the air, and we should be able to see anybody in front of us so multiple planes of the same type don't get confusing. It works - there are not a huge number of incidents caused by this. Also, our CTAF is shared by 3 airports in a 5SM mile area, so it gets busy.

What do you say?

Have your instructor show you in the AIM where it PROHIBITS using the call sign at an uncontrolled airport.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

At all other times, I just assume that the other pilots on the freq know I'll be making a full stop unless I state differently (ie: touch-n-go, low approach, etc).

For better or worse, that's what I do in fixed-wing.

For the benefit of the non-rotorhead majority, I give my landing location on the field, which might be a runway, a helipad, a taxiway, a grassy area, whatever. I also announce practice autos, and announce if I intend to stay on the runway, for example, to practice a couple of quick stops.

Same idea on departure as well. If I'm using a runway, I'll make the same call as I would in a fixed-wing. Otherwise, I'll announce something like: "Brandywine, helicopter departing from taxiway midfield to the northeast, Brandywine".

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Just so I have this right, when I am approaching a busy pattern with a lot of people making radio calls when is it ok for me to ask blindly on the frequency "Any traffic in the pattern please advise?"


or is that too much of a thread jack?

Well, you really shouldn't do that if you're not going to include some ums and ers

Isn't that annoying when people ask that? Or when they ask for an airport advisory when all they have to do is listen to find out what runway is in use?

 

[ScottM]

Well, you really shouldn't do that if you're not going to include some ums and ers

Isn't that annoying when people ask that? Or when they ask for an airport advisory when all they have to do is listen to find out what runway is in use?

Last weekend there were 5 of us in the pattern and two trying to take off so we were all talking and trying to get the spacing right so the two guys could take off. All of sudden a guy comes on asking for traffic advisories and what the active runway is.

It was all I could do to not respond and tell him to listen and he will figure out the traffic and the 'active' runway is whatever he decides after he gets the AWOS but we are all using runway 2!! Then on top of that he calls that he has joined the downwind 5 miles out. His call "I am on the 5 mile upwind of the downwind for runway 2" WTF does that mean?

I was just turning crosswind. and had to extend crosswind at a lower than pattern altitude to avoid having him run into me and then rejoin the downwind. Knucklehead!!

 

[Steve]

Hearing someone ask if anyone is out there gets on my nerves. Maybe it's just me. No useful information except the guy/gal knows how to hold the mic button down.

I try to ask for an airport advisory inbound about 5 miles out regardless because often pilots in the smaller airports around here don't announce taxiing out or when they are in closed patterns, especially ones with no FBO. At least they know I'm coming if they have the radio on.

My initial call entering the pattern is [Airport name, N#, position, intention, Airport name]. I don't provide flight following in the pattern unless another pilot indicates concern regarding my presence, e.g., student or fast mover. I do announce final for that last minute update to any one contemplating a straight in or an immediate departure. I'm also ready to break it off for those that aren't listening. I expect them to look, too, but that's not always a reliable expectation.

My 2¢.

Well, you really shouldn't do that if you're not going to include some ums and ers

Isn't that annoying when people ask that? Or when they ask for an airport advisory when all they have to do is listen to find out what runway is in use?

 

[ScottM]

I try to ask for an airport advisory inbound about 5 miles out regardless because often pilots in the smaller airports around here don't announce taxiing out or when they are in closed patterns, especially ones with no FBO. At least they know I'm coming if they have the radio on.

I don't ask for the advisory out there. At 5 to 7miles out I would say '[airport name] Traffic Cherokee 8116B 5 miles out inbound on the 45 for runway XXX [airport name]'. I figure that will get the guys who might be foolign around and not making traffic calls to start making them. But I am also used to flying where there are planes without radios so I do not depend on the on the other guy to keep me safe and as you said provide me with FF.

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, I fly out of a fairly busy (70,000 ops/year) uncontrolled field under O'Hare class Bravo. The flight school here still teaches the <field> <type> <full tail> <position> <field> method. We sometimes give intentions, but since the noise abatement procedures for the field call for no touch & gos (and at 3400', stop and gos aren't something I feel like doing), the intention is frequently left off. I'm not sure why we don't shorten the callsign, but I admit it's something I've started doing on my own after taking up instrument training.

As far as asking for winds, active, and traffic in the pattern, it's not that common a mistake here, which is somewhat surprising, since we don't have weather reporting. I've asked for traffic in the pattern on a few occaisions, usually if it's night, there doesn't appear to be anyone around after listening for a minute or so, and I'm hoping to do a straight-in, as I generally am when coming off an approach. Of course, I have been known to make the (infrequent) straight-in at other times, as well.

 

[gismo]

I agree with you. Don't congest the frequency [as you said], but do realize that by stating which base leg you're on (right vs. left), you will be informing other pilots who just switched to the freq of your location. If it's busy and I can't that many words in, I'd probably do the same [as you] if/until a pilot requests clarification of my location.

I usually include left/right on pattern position calls, except for final of course. Instead on final, I state my intentions WRT to the runway (EG full stop, touch/go etc). I figure that what I plan to do on the runway isn't of much value to anyone until I start turning final and sometimes that's the first point in the pattern when I am pretty certain what I want anyway. Perhaps by substituting the type of landing for the pattern direction on final keeps me from uttering "left/right final".