Call from FSS

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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Oklahoma
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Namaste
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.

It was after dark and it was pouring rain. I was at the airport at the appointed time for my flight lesson, but it was obvious that it would not happen, both because of the unexpected storm and the fact that my CFI was nowhere to be seen. I had been waiting out the cold rainstorm in the empty motorhome sized portable building for about half an hour when the phone rang. It was late at night and I don't remember if the tower was still open. It probably was because it closes at 11:00.

The phone call was from the local FSS. They wanted to know if aircraft with tail number N_____ had landed. I told them that no airplanes had landed within the past half hour. They asked whether the airplane was in the tie down area or in the hangar.

I told them I did not know. When they asked me to check, I declined and told them to call the tower.

Here is why I did not go. It was wet out there. It was dark out there. It was cold out there. I did not have a flashlight. There were acres of tie-down spots and I didn't know enough to be able to identify aircraft types, so I'd have to look at each tail number of each plane to determine if it was the right one. I didn't have a flashlight. It was slippery out there. I'm an old lady. I could fall and break a hip and nobody would find me until the next day. Besides, the guy probably just forgot to close his flight plan.
 
AuntPeggy said:
now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done
Click to expand...

If it were I, I would have searched for the plane. It very well could have been the aircraft of the instructor you were waiting for.

If I was at the airport for a night flight, I would have a flashlight on me.

I would have searched by car if I could get my car on the ramp.

Are you certain it was an overdue VFR aircraft? If the caller was looking for an aircraft that was IFR, not searching could result in others having to wait or divert.

I don't fault others for not doing what I would do in that scenario. You had no obligation to the caller other than to share what you knew. Thats all.
 
I would've searched in my car if there was a means that I could get my car out there.
 
Thanks for the reply.

The flashlights were in the airplane. OK, I could have gone out to the plane to get one.
The CFI wasn't coming. I had already spoken with him.
I did not have a key to a gate wide enough for a car.
If it was IFR, tower would have cancelled for him. We are sitting under the NYC mode C veil.
 
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Many of us macho men would have braved the rain to help a perceived authority figure (I'm sure I read a study on that somewhere). No blame on you for not going, your logic may have been in the best interest of self-preservation, and is sound. They even got lucky you answered the dang phone! Did they even tell you WHY they were looking for the airplane?
 
Looking for an ELT?
I think you did OK. If they had a more persuasive reason they should have given it to you.
 
No my yob, mon.

I didn't cause the problem, no life-threatening results if I decline. They gotta keep looking for him anyway, or find somebody who is better equipped for a ramp search. If he's here and forgot to cancel he's going to get an ass-chewing from somebody anyway, why should I get cold and wet?
 
AuntPeggy said:
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.

It was after dark and it was pouring rain. I was at the airport at the appointed time for my flight lesson, but it was obvious that it would not happen, both because of the unexpected storm and the fact that my CFI was nowhere to be seen. I had been waiting out the cold rainstorm in the empty motorhome sized portable building for about half an hour when the phone rang. It was late at night and I don't remember if the tower was still open. It probably was because it closes at 11:00.

The phone call was from the local FSS. They wanted to know if aircraft with tail number N_____ had landed. I told them that no airplanes had landed within the past half hour. They asked whether the airplane was in the tie down area or in the hangar.

I told them I did not know. When they asked me to check, I declined and told them to call the tower.

Here is why I did not go. It was wet out there. It was dark out there. It was cold out there. I did not have a flashlight. There were acres of tie-down spots and I didn't know enough to be able to identify aircraft types, so I'd have to look at each tail number of each plane to determine if it was the right one. I didn't have a flashlight. It was slippery out there. I'm an old lady. I could fall and break a hip and nobody would find me until the next day. Besides, the guy probably just forgot to close his flight plan.
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Here's some food for thought. If there was a operating tower then FSS would have called them first rather then the flight school. The only way that FSS would have had the number to the flight school was if it was part of the flight plan so I think we can make the assumption that it was a flight school plane so instead of searching acres of planes you were more likely being asked to check the flight school planes which really narrows it down. You said this was many years ago so I'm wondering about the old lady/slippery ground reason. If you don't verify that the plane is safely down then there will likely have to be a SAR effort along it's route of flight to find it. Would I want to have that effort launched because I did not want to go out in the rain for a few minutes? No not likely. I think it really comes down to how much you feel you have a responsibility to your fellow pilot/fellow man.
 
AP, are there any NTSB reports in the database corresponding to that day/ locale?
 
jtheune said:
Not sure how that matters to the point under discussion.
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It is a valid question to ask after the fact, if only for informational value. It would be nice to know that her actions didn't lead to someone dying while waiting to be found.

AP, the only thing I would have asked of you would have been to explain to FSS why you couldn't comply with their request. If it was an honest-to-God emergency, they could have explained that to you in order to get you to reconsider. But your logic was sound and conservative.
 
AuntPeggy said:
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.... <snip>
Click to expand...

Do you feel as though life been treating you too well lately?
Are you a masochist?
Have you gone off your meds?

;)
 
JoeSelch said:
Do you feel as though life been treating you too well lately?
Are you a masochist?
Have you gone off your meds?

;)
Click to expand...
Joe,
1) Yes, life is very good and getting better. Hubby says it is disconcerting to see me smiling all the time since I retired.
2) Possibly, I've been spending a lot of time in Spin Zone.
3) Nope, I still take 12 pills a day. (Unless I forget)

Thanks.:yesnod:
 
It depends on the situation but the short answer is, yes I would have gone looking. Rain or darkness would not dissuade me unless it was an electrical storm with potential for lightning strikes. Years ago, FSS helped a shyte-ton of pilots from doing stupid things, and trained and taught pilots what could happen if the exercised their rights/privileges as an aviator launching into questionable circumstance.

Today if LockMart called and asked me to go on a bug-hunt I would prolly fart in the phone and hang up.
 
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Perhaps you can narrow it down and take a WAG. You know the area (:yes:), have an idea (at least) of month and day...
 
No bashing from me, although I totally disagree with the course of action you took. No need to explain further, I'm sure you know, and that's why you posted this...

I will say that the niceness of a complete stranger likely saved my life in the form of an airline pilot offering to relay instructions to a little ol' lost VFR guy stuck under low clouds in mountainous terrain. He didn't have to step in to help, but if he hadn't, its likely I would have had to brave something bad like landing on I-25 or hitting a mountain and dying. I feel that as humans, we have an obligation to try our hardest to save other humans, even if our efforts are in vain and won't do any good.

But I won't bash someone for disagreeing and believing otherwise.
 
Jaybird180 said:
AP, are there any NTSB reports in the database corresponding to that day/ locale?
Click to expand...

Worst idea ever. Don't do this, don't suggest this, just let the day go, AP. You don't want to know the answer to this question. You were asking what we would have done and what you should have done. What happened after your actions are irrelevant, and not something you should know.

Sort of like I'll never know what happened to my old dog Piper. I believe he found new owners and lived happily ever after. I refuse to admit that there's a very good chance he was euthanized because I was a horrible master.
 
Having FSS ask for help means there is something serious going on, IMHO, checking for them just might have saved a life. Nice to know other "pilots" have your back in an emergency. :rolleyes:

AP, you could have called for help if you could not perform the task. :yes:
 
Geico266 said:
Having FSS ask for help means there is something serious going on, IMHO, checking for them just might have saved a life. Nice to know other "pilots" have your back in an emergency. :rolleyes:

AP, you could have called for help if you could not perform the task. :yes:
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She did. She told them to call the tower. That's direct line communication and a good source of reliable information.
 
AuntPeggy said:
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.

It was after dark and it was pouring rain. I was at the airport at the appointed time for my flight lesson, but it was obvious that it would not happen, both because of the unexpected storm and the fact that my CFI was nowhere to be seen. I had been waiting out the cold rainstorm in the empty motorhome sized portable building for about half an hour when the phone rang. It was late at night and I don't remember if the tower was still open. It probably was because it closes at 11:00.

The phone call was from the local FSS. They wanted to know if aircraft with tail number N_____ had landed. I told them that no airplanes had landed within the past half hour. They asked whether the airplane was in the tie down area or in the hangar.

I told them I did not know. When they asked me to check, I declined and told them to call the tower.

Here is why I did not go. It was wet out there. It was dark out there. It was cold out there. I did not have a flashlight. There were acres of tie-down spots and I didn't know enough to be able to identify aircraft types, so I'd have to look at each tail number of each plane to determine if it was the right one. I didn't have a flashlight. It was slippery out there. I'm an old lady. I could fall and break a hip and nobody would find me until the next day. Besides, the guy probably just forgot to close his flight plan.
Click to expand...

I would have asked if they had called the tower.
 
Brad Z said:
Are you certain it was an overdue VFR aircraft? If the caller was looking for an aircraft that was IFR, not searching could result in others having to wait or divert.
Click to expand...

If the aircraft was IFR it wouldn't have been FSS that was looking for him.
 
When was the last time FSS called and asked for info on a missing aircraft? Seems to me they are doing their best to locate the plane before calling search and rescue, putting their lives in danger, and tying up valuable civil resources. Seems to me the very least she could have done was call someone to have them come out and look for her.

"It was wet, dark, and slippery". Did she care to think about anyone other than herself? What about the pilot potentially sitting in a field somewhere trying to survive a forced landing, or crash?

I certainly know what I would have done. :yes:
 
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I would imagine they would ask the local police to look for the plane at the airport before launching a search and rescue.
 
Had you not been in the shack to answer the phone, they'd have followed the same procedure (whatever it was) that they ended up following. Maybe they called out SAR, maybe they sent someone out to check the ramp and hangars.

Let's look at this logically. If we assume the worst: airplane down. They call, ask you to check the ramp, you decline, they have to send people out (CAP or whomever) to look. No negative impact from you not getting soaked in the rain; the plane doesn't sit upside down in a bean field any longer because you didn't go check the ramp.

If we assume the best: Pilot just didn't close flight plan. They call, you decline, they eventually find the pilot and plane safe and sound. At worst a some guys had a long night looking for a plane that was tucked away and a pilot who wasn't answering his phone. It's happened before, it will happen again.

Don't beat yourself up over it. They asked you to check the tiedowns and hangars for a non-crashed airplane, not go look for downed airplane. Big difference there.
 
Brad Z said:
If it were I, I would have searched for the plane. It very well could have been the aircraft of the instructor you were waiting for.

If I was at the airport for a night flight, I would have a flashlight on me.

I would have searched by car if I could get my car on the ramp.

Are you certain it was an overdue VFR aircraft? If the caller was looking for an aircraft that was IFR, not searching could result in others having to wait or divert.

I don't fault others for not doing what I would do in that scenario. You had no obligation to the caller other than to share what you knew. Thats all.
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention one other reason why I would have done it: karmatic obligation... I once forgot to close my flightplan.
 
DaleB said:
Had you not been in the shack to answer the phone, they'd have followed the same procedure (whatever it was) that they ended up following. Maybe they called out SAR, maybe they sent someone out to check the ramp and hangars.

Let's look at this logically. If we assume the worst: airplane down. They call, ask you to check the ramp, you decline, they have to send people out (CAP or whomever) to look. No negative impact from you not getting soaked in the rain; the plane doesn't sit upside down in a bean field any longer because you didn't go check the ramp.

If we assume the best: Pilot just didn't close flight plan. They call, you decline, they eventually find the pilot and plane safe and sound. At worst a some guys had a long night looking for a plane that was tucked away and a pilot who wasn't answering his phone. It's happened before, it will happen again.

Don't beat yourself up over it. They asked you to check the tiedowns and hangars for a non-crashed airplane, not go look for downed airplane. Big difference there.
Click to expand...

Actually it might mean the plane is sitting upside down longer. By not looking at the ramp that forces FSS to request someone else do so. That delays the process and might mean the difference between life and death for a downed pilot.
 
Brad Z said:
I forgot to mention one other reason why I would have done it: karmatic obligation... I once forgot to close my flightplan.
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yeah, I've gotten that phone call before too. I'd bet everyone on this board has gotten that phone call once. That big dent in my forehead(DOH!) is a good reminder. :yes:
 
I would have looked. The fact you did not for what ever does not bother me. We all have our reasons for doing or not doing something.
 
AuntPeggy said:
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.

It was after dark and it was pouring rain. I was at the airport at the appointed time for my flight lesson, but it was obvious that it would not happen, both because of the unexpected storm and the fact that my CFI was nowhere to be seen. I had been waiting out the cold rainstorm in the empty motorhome sized portable building for about half an hour when the phone rang. It was late at night and I don't remember if the tower was still open. It probably was because it closes at 11:00.

The phone call was from the local FSS. They wanted to know if aircraft with tail number N_____ had landed. I told them that no airplanes had landed within the past half hour. They asked whether the airplane was in the tie down area or in the hangar.

I told them I did not know. When they asked me to check, I declined and told them to call the tower.

Here is why I did not go. It was wet out there. It was dark out there. It was cold out there. I did not have a flashlight. There were acres of tie-down spots and I didn't know enough to be able to identify aircraft types, so I'd have to look at each tail number of each plane to determine if it was the right one. I didn't have a flashlight. It was slippery out there. I'm an old lady. I could fall and break a hip and nobody would find me until the next day. Besides, the guy probably just forgot to close his flight plan.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm... Many years ago you were an old lady.:dunno::dunno:..

What are you now ? 110 ?:dunno:.


Ps... I would have looked for a fellow aviator..:yes:
 
I dunno, I'd just stick it out and get an answer and be done with it. Too many people refuse to step out on a limb or acknowledge accountability. I'd give it my best.

This isn't blind bureaucracy, this is people trying to help people. Go with it. Some people in the Government are stellar individuals. Anybody that would bother to make the effort to call you to verify if a plane is there counts as that.
 
By asking the question, I think you are feeling guilty for all these years for making a decision based on the circumstances at hand. I do not think you should feel guilty, and personally I do not think you did anything wrong, or shameful. You were a student, it was raining, and dark, and personally trudging through a ran storm with a flashlight at night looking at N numbers to find a overdue plane seems to me a waste of time at best. There was a tower on field I would assume the FSS called the tower and the tower told the FSS that the plane did not land there , and unless the tower personnel was incompetent, it is a safe bet that the plane was not there, unless the pilot gave the wrong N-number on the flight plan, or to the tower. Furthermore, if it was so important to search the ramps, then the tower could probably had done it or an FBO employee could have.

I have to be completely honest and tell you I do not think I would have handled it differently, but then again maybe my vast experience with no good deed goes unpunished has made me jaded.
 
Geico266 said:
When was the last time FSS called and asked for info on a missing aircraft? Seems to me they are doing their best to locate the plane before calling search and rescue, putting their lives in danger, and tying up valuable civil resources. Seems to me the very least she could have done was call someone to have them come out and look for her.

"It was wet, dark, and slippery". Did she care to think about anyone other than herself? What about the pilot potentially sitting in a field somewhere trying to survive a forced landing, or crash?

I certainly know what I would have done. :yes:
Click to expand...

Have you ever heard of an ELT?
 
AuntPeggy said:
I'm an old lady. I could fall and break a hip and nobody would find me until the next day.
Click to expand...

You hear that lil violen playing

If you are sooo frail and weak as you can't go out in the rain, you probably should be in a assisted living facility.

Maybe it's my medic training, but it bothers me deeply when people won't do chit to help someone in need.

If I were you I'd hope there was no such thing as karma ;)
 
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AuntPeggy said:
This happened many years ago when I was a student pilot, but now I'm ready to confess and ask what you would have done and what I should have done. I'm prepared for a complete bashing.
Click to expand...

Since you asked, I would have looked.

Since you asked, you should have done whatever your conscience tells you today that you should have done then.

That said, never regret yesterday and all that.
 
I think calling the tower was a reasonable next step. You confirmed nothing had landed there in the last 30 minutes, and I presume gave them a report that it was raining cats and dogs. They probably start calling other nearby airports where it isn't raining.

Most likely someone diverted due to weather and was sitting on the ground waiting for weather to clear. The flight wasn't done, so they didn't close a flight plan.

You were a part of the system...you helped out to your ability. That's all anyone can ask.
 
N801BH said:
Hmmmm... Many years ago you were an old lady.:dunno::dunno:..

What are you now ? 110 ?:dunno:.


Ps... I would have looked for a fellow aviator..:yes:
Click to expand...
I was 57. I was in treatment for post-menopausal osteoporosis in hip and spine. The following winter, I broke an ankle on the ice. I turned 70 this week.
 
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