spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
I'm thinking turboed FIKI Seneca. Let's see if Dr. Bruce will back me up on this.
C172 into Known Icing?
- Thread starter JohnSBA
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I'm thinking turboed FIKI Seneca. Let's see if Dr. Bruce will back me up on this.
koehn
Pre-Flight
First post..................
Welcome to POA...
Not sure why it took me two years, but thanks!
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
I'm sure he will, but I'd point out there are lots of other light twins that, depending on your mission, may provide you better utility/economy.
Our de-iced 310 does quite well. The upgraded engines definitely help for common winter systems. The Aztec was even better at handling ice, but didn't climb through it as well as the 310 does, mostly a function of its lower power and slower airspeed.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup. that's why I have it. I'm now on engines, # 5 and 6. It gets flown a lot.
koehn
Pre-Flight
Bruce,
Under what circumstances would you launch into known ice? When would you not? And how did you choose those parameters?
Under what circumstances would you launch into known ice? When would you not? And how did you choose those parameters?
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bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
I will penetrate a layer to known tops, and will penetrate a layer on approach to a "make", not an "in doubt" ILS.
I like it better when the surfaces is warm, but in the FIKI twin that is not a requirement....
There is no such thing as "light" or "moderate" icing for a 172. It is all "severe"---get out.
In a 172, or any non-K plane, one shoule not avoid FIKI conditions. One should avoid potential icing. No visible moisture at, near or below freezing for me.
Dave Siciliano
Final Approach
I've been flying almost 40 years now (on and off); hard to believe. I certainly don't advocate flying a non-deice bird into icing conditions.
For years, I flew a turbonormalized A-36 that was very capable. Could fly over 1,000 NM at up to FL250. That would cover a lot of territory and get one into a lot of different weather. In the low flight levels, icing could be encountered any time of the year--even in Florida. So, one has to develop judgement as to how to deal with a lot of different situations. Several times in that plane, I got caught above a layer of icing or conditions conducive to icing and had to descend down through it. Once ice accumulated on that airframe, it just stayed there--at least for a very long period of time. Conditions could materially change while I was in the air. Center could put me at an altitude where I couldn't stay. I didn't want to declare an emergency in busy airspace because I'd gotten into a pickle I shouldn't have gotten into, so, I moved to a known ice aircraft (pressurized baron). I never planned on flying into icing conditions in that first bird. However, flying high, far, and for relatively long periods lead to conditions where I could find myself having to deal with icing. We have much more weather information today to evaluate enroute weather than when I started flying, but systems can move quickly, temp and dew points can come together in an unforecast manner, etc. My advise, is simply don't do it if you can avoid it. Plan for outs if you encounter it. If you do find yourself in a situation that couldn't be planned for, get out as soon as you can. A couple times, I planned on a 180 if necessary. Never had to do it because conditions didn't get bad, but I was fully prepared to do that.
Now, I'm flying a King Air which has better deice capabilities than the baron did.
All a K ice bird does is give you more options. One still has to carefully evaluate the capability of the bird v. ice what may be encountered. Judgement comes with experience. If moderate icing is reported by a bird with my capabilities or greater, I don't go there in a K-ice bird.
Best,
Dave
For years, I flew a turbonormalized A-36 that was very capable. Could fly over 1,000 NM at up to FL250. That would cover a lot of territory and get one into a lot of different weather. In the low flight levels, icing could be encountered any time of the year--even in Florida. So, one has to develop judgement as to how to deal with a lot of different situations. Several times in that plane, I got caught above a layer of icing or conditions conducive to icing and had to descend down through it. Once ice accumulated on that airframe, it just stayed there--at least for a very long period of time. Conditions could materially change while I was in the air. Center could put me at an altitude where I couldn't stay. I didn't want to declare an emergency in busy airspace because I'd gotten into a pickle I shouldn't have gotten into, so, I moved to a known ice aircraft (pressurized baron). I never planned on flying into icing conditions in that first bird. However, flying high, far, and for relatively long periods lead to conditions where I could find myself having to deal with icing. We have much more weather information today to evaluate enroute weather than when I started flying, but systems can move quickly, temp and dew points can come together in an unforecast manner, etc. My advise, is simply don't do it if you can avoid it. Plan for outs if you encounter it. If you do find yourself in a situation that couldn't be planned for, get out as soon as you can. A couple times, I planned on a 180 if necessary. Never had to do it because conditions didn't get bad, but I was fully prepared to do that.
Now, I'm flying a King Air which has better deice capabilities than the baron did.
All a K ice bird does is give you more options. One still has to carefully evaluate the capability of the bird v. ice what may be encountered. Judgement comes with experience. If moderate icing is reported by a bird with my capabilities or greater, I don't go there in a K-ice bird.
Best,
Dave
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DanielH
Pre-Flight
JHW
En-Route
Most of us do the opposite. We try to fly in such a manner that we never have to find out whether or not we are "highly skilled".
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
The use of superior judgement, to keep ones' average arse from having to demonstrate superior skill, is the key. It think the judgement of the OP's friends' CFI is in question.
If you want to experience icing, do so in a FIKI aircraft...., but not without a warm out.
Many moons in a distant time in a far ago world I gave the order to "prepare to ditch". We were 200 miles from anywhere to put down. the Bering Sea is huge,a nd very cold. Not one of my happier moments.
If you want to experience icing, do so in a FIKI aircraft...., but not without a warm out.
Many moons in a distant time in a far ago world I gave the order to "prepare to ditch". We were 200 miles from anywhere to put down. the Bering Sea is huge,a nd very cold. Not one of my happier moments.
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wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Wayne
Seeing ice accumulate on an airplane can be a fairly benign experience or a real attention-getter. If you venture from VMC up into the first hundred feet of cloud, turn on the pitot heat and then see a little rime form on the windshield and leading edges of the wing before descending back into warmer air, it's not a big deal and all you learned is that some portion of the windshield becomes opaque. You really didn't learn anything about flying in icing conditions, and staying longer might teach you some lessons you really didn't want to learn.
OTOH, if you're flying along at 8-10k' and happen to encounter the top of a big juicy cloud you can't avoid and have a big "Splat!" of mixed ice instantly and totally cover the windshield, throw what looks like about a foot on the leading edges and knock about 30 knots off the IAS before you can say "Center, uhhhhhh" you'll then have more opportunity than you ever wanted to figure out what to do next.
What you'll learn in a heartbeat is that you can't see squat through the windshield, avoiding any other juicy tops is totally luck of the draw and the aerodynamic qualities and performance of the airplane are now unknown and unpredictable.
OTOH, if you're flying along at 8-10k' and happen to encounter the top of a big juicy cloud you can't avoid and have a big "Splat!" of mixed ice instantly and totally cover the windshield, throw what looks like about a foot on the leading edges and knock about 30 knots off the IAS before you can say "Center, uhhhhhh" you'll then have more opportunity than you ever wanted to figure out what to do next.
What you'll learn in a heartbeat is that you can't see squat through the windshield, avoiding any other juicy tops is totally luck of the draw and the aerodynamic qualities and performance of the airplane are now unknown and unpredictable.
The use of superior judgement, to keep ones' average arse from having to demonstrate superior skill, is the key. It think the judgement of the OP's friends' CFI is in question.
If you want to experience icing, do so in a FIKI aircraft...., but not without a warm out.
Many moons in a distant time in a far ago world I gave the order to "prepare to ditch". We were 200 miles from anywhere to put down. the Bering Sea is huge,a nd very cold. Not one of my happier moments.
What happened?
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Got down to about 3,000 and it was warm enough that the bleed air and the inlet heat was adequate. But the fuel burn! hokey smokes.
koehn
Pre-Flight
Thanks, Bruce. I think I need to find a way to get into one of those Seneca IIs. First I need an AMEL and a bunch more time in the logbook...
JHW
En-Route
In the course of doing that, find a freight dog to ride with in the right seat and observe. When I was in college i flew checks at night and one of the local CFI's would send all of her instrument students to see IFR in the real world. I didn't mind, partly because it was good to have someone to keep me awake and partly because the cfi would buy me breakfast and she was cute.
Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
Bought my Aztec at 225 hours total time. All depends on your goals and training schedule/aggressiveness.
ProspectingCFI
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Matt
Though I am a cfi, I have nowhere near the experience as many here do. But I can tell you this without any slight bit of doubt, icing needs to be taken incredibly seriously. Probably the single biggest threat in my eyes. Sure, this guy may survive it and have no issues, but it only takes once. Also, the plane isn't rated for known icing, if the danger is not enough for you, the rules should be.
If you look at the definitions in the AIM, moderate icing is actually pretty bad. As for light icing, if it causes a problem in less than an hour, then it's not light icing.
Excerpt from AIM 7-1-21b:
According to no. 2 above, light icing will become a problem without deicing/anti-icing equipment if you hang around in it long enough, which reinforces your advice to get out of it.
Elsewhere in the same section, they mention that the aircraft type should be reported as well, which brings up the point that it's a good idea to notice the type when reading pireps. I always figured that if airliners were reporting light icing (or greater), then it was not someplace I wanted to be in a 172.
Inverted
Cleared for Takeoff
I have iced up a 172 a few times. It isn't a nothing burger, but depending on the conditions it can bite you.
I don't think I've ever had more than a 16th of an inch on a 172 or comparable aircraft. That was before I heard of Skew-T diagrams, so there was probably some luck involved. Nowadays I don't have much need to fly IFR in cold weather.