Buying used plane as is

Tom-D said:
How many sellers would object to some one looking at their aircraft prior to making any offer.
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Many, especially when there is a broker involved. It's a way to weed out those 'tire-kickers' you love to complain about.
 
Tom-D said:
Wouldn't it be smarter to inspect this aircraft prior to making an offer?

How many sellers would object to some one looking at their aircraft prior to making any offer.
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Hell, I think Buyers should go fly the plane before making offers, and Sellers should offer to take the buyers flying, be a salesman, close the deal.
 
Palmpilot said:
What's the downside of giving the seller a copy of the pre-buy report after the deal falls through? What difference does it make to you?
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Exactly!!!

How do you convince the Seller that there are $10k of items, if you don't share the report?
 
I know it's personal preference on sharing but here was my experience.

I went and looked at the plane and many others. I then made an offer (as-is) and then went to prebuy. Had to make sure we were in the same ballpark before I got on a commercial flight and he transported the plane for prebuy. It was an expensive and time consuming process that I prefer to have as many details (price) worked out as possible to ensure a smooth transaction for both sides before incurring the cost and time.

I was very open when I bought.
I got the typical list of some 20 things and 3 airworthy issues. I went to lunch with the seller, showed him the list and said I will accept all the small stuff but the 3 airworthy items I would not be able to proceed. He came up with the $5k to fix it. I bought. End of MY story. YMMV.

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linuxjim said:
I know it's personal preference on sharing but here was my experience.

I made an offer (as-is) and then went to prebuy. Had to make sure we were in the same ballpark before I got on a commercial flight and he transported the plane for prebuy. It was an expensive and time consuming process that I prefer to have as many details (price) worked out as possible to ensure a smooth transaction for both sides before incurring the cost and time.

I was very open when I bought.
I got the typical list of some 20 things and 3 airworthy issues. I went to lunch with the seller, showed him the list and said I will accept all the small stuff but the 3 airworthy items I would not be able to proceed. He came up with the $5k to fix it. I bought. End of MY story. YMMV.
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This is a very standard way of doing things. Usually you come to an agreement on price, do the prebuy, and then negotiate the fixes.

One variant is that you negotiate a discount for some fixes, and then the end result is an "as-is" sale price. The 310 sale was done this way. We agreed on a price, the plane went for prebuy, the list of items came up. We agreed on a discount on the sale price. After that, all shop bills were the responsibility of the buyers.

The first step before agreeing on a price was letting the potential buyers see the plane and we went for a quick flight so they could make sure they agreed this was a plane they wanted to buy.
 
Once the money changes hands its pretty much a done deal. So dont exchange money until you check the compressions, check for corrosion and find out what avionics and other items YOU can find dont work.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Exactly!!!

How do you convince the Seller that there are $10k of items, if you don't share the report?
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I was thinking the same thing...I keep my airplanes as perfect as I can, even when I sell them. If you came to me and said, "I found $10k worth of stuff that needs repair on your plane, but I'm not sharing with you what I found," I'd laugh and walk away...

In a way, I had someone do this on my last aircraft that I sold...he said the plane needed a $4000 modification, and at first he wouldn't say what that was...come to find out, he wanted to replace the nearly new cruise prop with a climb prop, and he felt that should be my expense, not his.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Hell, I think Buyers should go fly the plane before making offers, and Sellers should offer to take the buyers flying, be a salesman, close the deal.
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You'd be ill advised to make a formal offer before test flying a plane, how she performs in a stall will tell you more about rigging than a AP ever can.


Personally I'd be happy to take anyone for a quick hop in my plane if I were selling, depending on how the person acts.
 
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Broker agreed to my terms to have a way to walk away if prebuy turns up major issues so will do the inspection and make decision based on that. Hopefully it works out and I can fly the nice bird home.
 
I am like a lot of the people here. What you are doing is what most of us would do. If you like what you are seeing, go ahead and lock it in. Your purchase agreement can have an out (like you said) if you find anything big. To me, what the seller is saying is that he is not going to go any lower and is not agreeing to fix anything that you might think needs fixing. Tom seems to think you should go look at it first, but for a lot of us the time and money to go for a quick look see, then go back to close the deal is difficult to come by. The last one I made an offer on, I had not seen the airplane. Only the logs and pictures. My pre buy mechanic said walk away. I sent the report to the seller and told him I was backing out since the airplane was not airworthy. He sent me a check for the deposit. I was only out the pre buy mechanic charge, which as I recall, was around $600.
 
Bought both my planes "as is." No issues or gotchas.
 
Just spoke to local shop and they are booked until mid-September for annual inspections! Anyways, asked broker to send me logs and need to see if any issues. After speaking to the main A&P, he mentioned high airframe time 8599 hours for a 1960 plane might be a concern.
 
As an AP how is 8k airframe a "concern"

Maybe value wise, but Mx wise I fail to see the issue
 
Maybe I missed it, but what is the aircraft that is being sought after to purchase?
 
Ryanb said:
Maybe I missed it, but what is the aircraft that is being sought after to purchase?
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I think it's an early model 182 (late 50s or early 60s).

I wouldn't worry too much about the airframe time. It isn't that unusual and on the positive side, it means it's flown and got more regular use.
 
tawood said:
I was thinking the same thing..
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I was thinking why buy any aircraft with 10k worth of repairs due? Isn't that a project aircraft, or are all aircraft projects?
 
I have a number of my pre-buys that the buyer has accepted the terms of "as is". I have to be prepared to make an estimate for what I find. I like it because it's a take it or leave it situation. Most of the sales work out.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think it's an early model 182 (late 50s or early 60s).

I wouldn't worry too much about the airframe time. It isn't that unusual and on the positive side, it means it's flown and got more regular use.
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No ! it means it is wore out.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Hell, I think Buyers should go fly the plane before making offers, and Sellers should offer to take the buyers flying, be a salesman, close the deal.
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I once bough a 170 for 5k, would you want to fly it first?
 

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Doesn't your intentions of usage determine how you buy any aircraft.
I've seen guys pay 25k for a set of logs and data tag.
I've bought projects that we flew home and then worked 12 years on them before flying them again.
I've also seen people buy new aircraft.
each buy process is different because people and their requirements are different.
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't your intentions of usage determine how you buy any aircraft.
I've seen guys pay 25k for a set of logs and data tag.
I've bought projects that we flew home and then worked 12 years on them before flying them again.
I've also seen people buy new aircraft.
each buy process is different because people and their requirements are different.
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Exactly. So why are you confusing the thread by bringing up aspects of buying like project airplanes which don't apply to the OP's situation?
 
Hey guys,

Sorry to confuse the point. The one plane that I looked at a week ago in San Diego is a 1960 Cessna 182 and I did not hear back from the seller on the plane. So I kept looking!

For the other plane under consideration, and in this case the subject of this thread, it is a 1962 Beech Debonair located in southern Oregon.
Since it would be sight unseen purchase, I need to exercise even more caution in the prebuy! That is why I have clause to back out if major issues come up in the inspection process by my independent mechanic. Broker sent me recent engine compressions which are good in the 70's and my A&P wants to find out if they are ECI or Millenium cylinders as these are subject to a few ADs. Seller and broker agreed to send logs and my mechanic will do a review and advise me if it is worth the cost and time to move forward with a full blown annual inspection which is due at end of the month.

From what my pilot friends tell me who now own planes, it is good idea to vet several candidates out so that if the others do not pencil out for different reasons, you end up with best plane.
 
Blueangel said:
Hey guys,

Sorry to confuse the point. The one plane that I looked at a week ago in San Diego is a 1960 Cessna 182 and I did not hear back from the seller on the plane. So I kept looking!

For the other plane under consideration, and in this case the subject of this thread, it is a 1962 Beech Debonair located in southern Oregon.
Since it would be sight unseen purchase, I need to exercise even more caution in the prebuy! That is why I have clause to back out if major issues come up in the inspection process by my independent mechanic. Broker sent me recent engine compressions which are good in the 70's and my A&P wants to find out if they are ECI or Millenium cylinders as these are subject to a few ADs. Seller and broker agreed to send logs and my mechanic will do a review and advise me if it is worth the cost and time to move forward with a full blown annual inspection which is due at end of the month.
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Thanks for the clarification. I don't want to discourage you, but you definitely want to proceed with caution.

This is my personal opinion: I have purchased two airplanes sight unseen. The first time I laid eyes on both my Baron and the Beech 18 was the day I arrived with my CFI to fly them home well after closing. Both airplanes worked out well. It can be successfully done, but I had some advantages.

First off, the Baron was located at the time in San Diego where I had previously been based. I had my former IA (personally known quantity) look over the airplane and review the logs before I submitted an offer. That airplane served me very well with no real surprises.

For the Twin Beech, I talked to a few folks who had seen the airplane at fly-ins and then hired one of the two top experts on the type (the other had done the previous annual). Again, very thorough research and the one surprise I have had (prop feathering issue) would have happened no matter how I had gone about the buying process.

In other words, if you can't see the airplane yourself before buying, I'd highly recommend having someone you trust look at it for you and you definitely need to be able to trust the shop you hire for the inspection.
 
Totally agree! In fact, I am having the seller provide me with all logs and 337s to have my A&P review before the inspection. That will help me decide whether to move forward or not in the process. I found a top shop in the area to look things over carefully. Safety is my biggest concern as I would be flying the plane back to San Diego from Oregon and don't want any engine failures on the flight home. The good news is that I have a couple viable options if this is not the right plane. The others have decent autopilot and IFR GPS which is what I want.
 
I beg to differ. The PREBUY is the "full blown inspection". The annual is an inspection for airworthiness only.

Now a good AI will give you a verbal "The tires are getting bald, the battery is pretty weak, the cylinders are nearly at minimums" but that is only if the AI is good to you. The annual inspection is a two-line entry in the logbook attesting to the airworthiness of the airplane.

Jim
 
weirdjim said:
I beg to differ. The PREBUY is the "full blown inspection". The annual is an inspection for airworthiness only.
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Again, there is no official definition of a 'pre-buy'.

It is whatever the buyer wants it to be. Many folks use an annual inspection checklist as their guide. Some use type club checklists. Some use both and others do a preflight and compression check. It's whatever the buyer wants it to be.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Exactly. So why are you confusing the thread by bringing up aspects of buying like project airplanes which don't apply to the OP's situation?
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All aircraft are projects, You've never seen any buyer of a used aircraft fly it as is for any length of time.
 
I don't usually contribute to this B.S. back and forth, but for some reason, Tom, you singled me out early on when I thought we were agreeing and giving the exact same recommendation to the OP...

You recommend validating it is worth the offer price (most accomplish through a prebuy):
Tom-D said:
Your offer has been excepted, now it is time to go have a look, keep the check in your pocket until you are satisfied it is worth the price.
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I recommend a prebuy (The very next comment):
linuxjim said:
You like the plane. You like the price, why would you not go get the pre buy? If it turns up something unacceptable negotiate or walk.
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You say prebuy could get you a court date???? Huh? - Let the talking in circles begin!
Tom-D said:
That could get you a court date, if you had no prior agreement.
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You recommend he NOT get a prebuy. (Make up your mind!) What does me buying a project plane have to do with anything?:
Tom-D said:
What good would a pre-buy do if the price was what the aircraft was really worth? I'll bet you have never bought a project aircraft.
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Here you don't know how a "project plane" is defined....
Tom-D said:
I was thinking why buy any aircraft with 10k worth of repairs due? Isn't that a project aircraft, or are all aircraft projects?
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You further go on to define a project plane as something that took you 12 years to fix. Then you state all planes are projects. If this isn't trolling I don't know what is.
Stop arguing for the sake of arguing... The OP found a plane. He likes the plane. He has agreed on a price of the plane as it is represented. That's it. Now he just has to go through the process of finding out if it is AS Represented (typically done through a prebuy)... Can't we all just get along??? :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Have you ever bought an airplane before?

OP clarified that the purchase agreement will have a back out clause. There is nothing to go to court over unless they refuse to give his deposit back.

This is very normal in the airplane buying world.
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OP stated annual inspection not a prebuy. Those are two different things.
 
Tom-D said:
I once bough a 170 for 5k, would you want to fly it first?
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Sure.

Get it airworthy, and I will fly a $5k plane.

I once bought a 172 for not much more than that, flew it first.
 
edessa said:
OP stated annual inspection not a prebuy. Those are two different things.
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They are and they aren't.

Again, there is no official or universal definition of a pre-buy. It's whatever the buyer wants it to be. If a buyer wants an annual inspection as his pre-buy, that is up to him. When I bought my Baron, I had a full annual inspection done. That was my pre-buy.
 
This is just me and I know I may be different for saying it but when you buy "AS IS" it means no inspections annuals or anything. You pay, pick up your item and go. There will be no complaining later on for anything wrong with that item.
 
edessa said:
This is just me and I know I may be different for saying it but when you buy "AS IS" it means no inspections annuals or anything. You pay, pick up your item and go. There will be no complaining later on for anything wrong with that item.
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Like pre-buys, 'as-is' can mean a lot of things. That's why you need a purchase agreement.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Sure.

Get it airworthy, and I will fly a $5k plane.

I once bought a 172 for not much more than that, flew it first.
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After getting it airworthy it wasn't a 5k aircraft.
 
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