Buying my first plane: Piper Warrior vs. Beech Sundowner or Musketeer

[Jay Honeck]

235 is the smaller cabin and 236 is the 5 inch stretch cabin? Is that right?

Almost correct. Piper stretched the fuselage 5" in 1973. The Pathfinder (Cherokee 235) has the longer fuselage of the later model Dakota. (Cherokee 236)

The Pathfinder can be had for thousands less than the Dakota, partially (IMHO) because of this misperception. It offers great "bang for the buck".

 

[hindsight2020]

Almost correct. Piper stretched the fuselage 5" in 1973. The Pathfinder (Cherokee 235) has the longer fuselage of the later model Dakota. (Cherokee 236)

The Pathfinder can be had for thousands less than the Dakota, partially (IMHO) because of this misperception. It offers great "bang for the buck".

The other half of the pricing difference comes in the form of the 4 vs 2 tank preference (the market actually valued a tank capacity reduction in order to have a simpler arrangement) and the last part being the post-78 piper wheel pants, present in all dakotas since they were all produced starting in 1979. This is good for 7-8knots at the same power setting. Not insignificant at all. If Mooney can make a big deal about the speed difference between an F and J mooney, a big deal can be made by the aerodynamic improvements between the -235 and -236.

In addition, the semi tapered wing is also more desirable. I owned a warrior II and now an arrow II, I truly miss my warrior wing. I hate the way the hershey bar wing drops out of the sky and the higher glide speed. Of course I'm not willing to pay a 20K premium for it, which is why I own a hershey bar arrow.

 

[hindsight2020]

Generally speaking, the Cessna/Piper/Beech 180-200HP R/G airplanes have folding gear primarily to provide retractable gear training and experience, not to provide significantly better performance (speed/payload). A Tiger will haul the same load, just as fast, and for significantly less money than an Arrow.

Nope.

All of that supposed cost advantage is overshadowed by acquisition price. I went into the market and I couldn't find tigers with modern avionics and mid time engines for less than 70K. I bought my Arrow II with 430W/gtx combo and a 1100SMOH engine for less than 50K. They threw in all speed mods for free too. So actually I'm ahead of Tiger owners both in climb rate, cruise speed/range and all-in ownership costs (since I'm 20K ahead in the bank due to acquisition costs).

So what are my added mx costs? The prop and the gear. These don't cause me grief on an ongoing basis and when they eventually do, the prop is likely to be a more expensive affair than the gear. But so it would be for anyone with a c/s prop, including RVs. I find a c/s prop to be a great asset and worth the added cost. Fixed pitch is leaving money on the table engine-wise. I bet running at 2600+ in order to barely keep up with my arrow at 2400 is just a peach on the pax over a 500NM leg, and I'm running a whole gallon an hour less too.

The adage about the 'singular' training value of the sub-200 piston retracts is true.... when gas was 2 bucks. Gas is now 5-6. There is a significant cost benefit to tucking the gear at 135 knots now versus flogging an O-540 to go Arrow speeds, where previously there wasn't. The tiger is a good airplane, but it isn't the poor man's 4-seater RV. It's about 20 knots too slow for that. And it isn't faster than an Arrow in level flight. You're paying more maintenance in the arrow, no doubt, but you're getting more with an Arrow. Significantly more? Of course not, but you're not spending significantly less with a tiger either.

That is what I like about the Arrow. It's so undervalued due to its trainer moniker that it isn't plagued with cult pricing like RVs, fixed leg cardinals, and grumman tigers.

 

[MSPAviator]

Owning a mooney requires a special kind of panache and I didn't sense that in the OP.

Haha, I didn't sense it either.

 

[poadeleted20]

Nope.

All of that supposed cost advantage is overshadowed by acquisition price. I went into the market and I couldn't find tigers with modern avionics and mid time engines for less than 70K. I bought my Arrow II with 430W/gtx combo and a 1100SMOH engine for less than 50K. They threw in all speed mods for free too. So actually I'm ahead of Tiger owners both in climb rate, cruise speed/range and all-in ownership costs (since I'm 20K ahead in the bank due to acquisition costs)

I doubt that's true today, and it still doesn't take into account another $500-1000 per year for insurance or the higher maintenance costs.

So what are my added mx costs? The prop and the gear. These don't cause me grief on an ongoing basis and when they eventually do, the prop is likely to be a more expensive affair than the gear. But so it would be for anyone with a c/s prop, including RVs. I find a c/s prop to be a great asset and worth the added cost. Fixed pitch is leaving money on the table engine-wise. I bet running at 2600+ in order to barely keep up with my arrow at 2400 is just a peach on the pax over a 500NM leg, and I'm running a whole gallon an hour less too.

I've flown Arrow II's. They burn more fuel, not less, by about 1 gph (unless you've figured out how to get your Arrow to cruise at 135 KTAS on less than 9 gph).

 

[poadeleted21]

To put-put around within 150nm, that would probably be a waste of money.

However, if he buys a trainer now, he will fly around his 150nm range for a year and realize that the real fun stuff is in a 450nm range. He will then sell the plane, incur expenses to market it and then give the state of california another 9% of his budget for the bonanza he should have bought in the first place.

A gentleman on beechtalk is selling a 1961 N35 for 47k. Nice paint, nice avionics (430W, KX155, freshly installed Brittain autopilot). Engine has 1260 on it, no reason it can't run another 800. Plane is based in VanNuys.

But then again, we would be back to everyone recommending the plane he owns .

That's pretty much the way I wasted $10,000 or so and lots of time.

 

[MDA53226]

To put-put around within 150nm, that would probably be a waste of money.

However, if he buys a trainer now, he will fly around his 150nm range for a year and realize that the real fun stuff is in a 450nm range. He will then sell the plane, incur expenses to market it and then give the state of california another 9% of his budget for the bonanza he should have bought in the first place.

A gentleman on beechtalk is selling a 1961 N35 for 47k. Nice paint, nice avionics (430W, KX155, freshly installed Brittain autopilot). Engine has 1260 on it, no reason it can't run another 800. Plane is based in VanNuys.

But then again, we would be back to everyone recommending the plane he owns .

Understood.
Some of us find plenty to do within 200-300 miles of home.
I've flown a Sundowner 1400nm to the Bahamas and enjoyed every minute flying. But most of my flights are less than 300 miles.

I've owned a Sundowner for 13 years.
Last year annual was $560, including maintenance and simple repairs.
(the plane never needs much repair work.)
Insurance is $603 this year.
My budget doesn't include the costs of a Bo.

A nice Sundowner will cost $30-something in today's market.
I was once told to buy half the airplane I thought I could afford.
It was good advice.
In this case, $60K/2 would be about $30K.

Warrior or Sundowner will be a matter of personal preference.
Buying a plane that gets there faster but costs more to own doesn't work for me. I like spending more hours flying, and less hours working to pay the maintenance and insurance.

-- Mark
'73 Sundowner
KRYV, Watertown, WI

 

[Morgan3820]

Understood.
Some of us find plenty to do within 200-300 miles of home.
I've flown a Sundowner 1400nm to the Bahamas and enjoyed every minute flying. But most of my flights are less than 300 miles.

I've owned a Sundowner for 13 years.
Last year annual was $560, including maintenance and simple repairs.
(the plane never needs much repair work.)
Insurance is $603 this year.
My budget doesn't include the costs of a Bo.

A nice Sundowner will cost $30-something in today's market.
I was once told to buy half the airplane I thought I could afford.
It was good advice.
In this case, $60K/2 would be about $30K.

Warrior or Sundowner will be a matter of personal preference.
Buying a plane that gets there faster but costs more to own doesn't work for me. I like spending more hours flying, and less hours working to pay the maintenance and insurance.

-- Mark
'73 Sundowner
KRYV, Watertown, WI

I agree. I do not like possessions possessing me. Arrows, Mooneys, et al are only incrementally faster than my Warrior when all are compared to a car.

 

[weilke]

Understood.
Some of us find plenty to do within 200-300 miles of home.
I've flown a Sundowner 1400nm to the Bahamas and enjoyed every minute flying. But most of my flights are less than 300 miles.

How many hours did you have before you purchased the sundowner ?

Plenty of owners in that class of aircraft who own their plane long term. I just wanted to point out that before spending money on a 4-cylinder 'slow' plane, one needs to decide whether that plane will work long-term. Particularly in a high sales tax environment like CA, there is a definite downside to buying the wrong plane on the first try.

 

[zaitcev]

Owning a mooney requires a special kind of panache and I didn't sense that in the OP.

Panache, shmanache. If I had $60k, I would be doing pre-buy on this last weeek:

The leftover $30k would buy a lot of extra mx for that E-225.

 

[docmirror]

Panache, shmanache. If I had $60k, I would be doing pre-buy on this last weeek:

The leftover $30k would buy a lot of extra mx for that E-225.

That's good, cause you're gonna need a fair piece in a few hundred hours. The E is rated at 1500TBO. Often the bottom end will go over 2000, but the jugs and acc will need to be visited pretty soon.

 

[JHW]

That's good, cause you're gonna need a fair piece in a few hundred hours. The E is rated at 1500TBO. Often the bottom end will go over 2000, but the jugs and acc will need to be visited pretty soon.

The engine is the least of your worries. That is an airplane that ends up in an add saying "50% partner wanted, bring serviceable propellor"

 

[dell30rb]

I agree. I do not like possessions possessing me. Arrows, Mooneys, et al are only incrementally faster than my Warrior when all are compared to a car.

Eh a 160kt mooney is a pretty good step up from a 115kt warrior.

 

[dell30rb]

I rent Warrior II's for more local trips. However for anything over about 250 miles I rent a Mooney 201. Well "rent" from a club (we pay a wet rate). The higher speed and shorter time makes up for the small increase in price. I find on longer trips the mooney is only slightly more expensive than the warrior. ($105/hr vs $155/hr)

Quoting myself here from another thread.

I do have a lot of destinations in a sub 250mi range so I find myself renting the warrior II's a fair amount. In raleigh both the coast and mountains are pretty close by. Just consider your budget and what you want to do.

I go raleigh to nashville a lot - 360nm east/west. The difference between a 110 kt and 155 kt plane is huge.

Example - I leave friday after work. In a 110 kt plane with a 20kt headwind it will take me 4 hours flight time to get to nashville. Add more than one passenger and I have to make a fuel stop which is 4.4 hours flight time and then add 15 minutes on the ground. That's a lot of flying after a full day and I typically arrive feeling like I have been hit by a truck.


In a 155 kt plane w 20 kt headwind I get there in 2.6 hours no fuel stop. I can do that after work and not arrive tired.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58521&highlight=155&page=3

 

[rbridges]

Eh a 160kt mooney is a pretty good step up from a 115kt warrior.

also, that 115 kt warrior becomes an 85 kt warrior in a 30 kt headwind. The mooney will still be doing triple digits. I remember seeing ground speeds in the high 60s and low 70s in a 180 cherokee.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Musketeer A23-24 super III.

You'll know it when you sit in it and take off.

/thread

And in his price range.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...craft/A23-24+Musketeer+Super+III/1740818.html

 

[zaitcev]

That is an airplane that ends up in an add saying "50% partner wanted, bring serviceable propellor"

At least it's not electric. It's nothing. If Trace could do it to his '53, so can I.

 

[weilke]

also, that 115 kt warrior becomes an 85 kt warrior in a 30 kt headwind. The mooney will still be doing triple digits. I remember seeing ground speeds in the high 60s and low 70s in a 180 cherokee.

I have flown a Warrior from ND to DC and back. On the way back, I had a 30kt headwind and trucks were passing me. Took 3 days with a snow-day somewhere in IL (Quincy iirc). With the Bo I would have been able to do it in the first day with one fuel stop despite the wind.

 

[docmirror]

And in his price range.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail...craft/A23-24+Musketeer+Super+III/1740818.html

Oh yeah. I can go check it out for him. I'm a few minutes from that place. Van Bortel has clean stuff mostly. The donuts look perfect.

 

[bjohnsonmn]

I've been in a similar conundrum lately. I am in a great flying club, and plan on staying in, even if I buy into a partnership on something.

In looking at all that is out there, I came around to liking the manual gear Mooney's. In fact, I test flew Kurt's with him in STL. (Great airplane, but it turns out my purchase timeframe moved out as I look for partners, and we may go for a long body)

I've flown about 20 different models of single engine GA since starting flying in June of 2011. (not 5 different C172's, 20 totally different aircraft types). I mention this to provide some perspective on my perspective.

For 150mi, something in the PA28/C172/Sundowner range would be great. But, I know your airspace, and you will eventually want to head East, which means climbing. (only so many times one can fly to Lompoc for Jalama Beach Club Sandwiches)

I took a Sundowner to OSH in 2011, and it was great for landing on the pink dot. I pulled the power and it landed... thud. It is a nice, roomy airplane, and they look nice on the ramp! Quality.

I guess, if I were to own, and not be a club flier, I would go for a manual gear Mooney. The mechanism is rock solid, and they are stable fliers. I also agree with others. If you can afford $60k, spend less. But I would say 2/3's. $40k-ish might be a good target. in which case, Kurt's is a possibility. There are also Mooney's in that range up and down the coast in CA.

Happy Flying!

Brad

 

[cowman]

You can most definitely find an Archer with a garmin 430W for 60k.

I bought one with 850smoh and about 3500TT. After purchase price, tax, pre-buy, and cost to fly and look it at and then go pick it up, I would be just under 60k.

 

[JHW]

At least it's not electric. It's nothing. If Trace could do it to his '53, so can I.

I'd rather have the electric than the beech hydraulic

 

[Jay Honeck]

Another data point to consider is efficiency.

A year ago I stepped into the experimental world, downsizing from a Cherokee 235 (Pathfinder) to a Van's RV-8A. In one, neat move, I jumped into something that is 25% faster while burning 25% less fuel.

End result: I am flying much more often, to destinations that are farther from home.

Example: I am writing this from the Big Bend National Park area of West Texas. We flew here after a night in San Antonio with friends, in less that two hours.

Climbed to 10.5', turned on the AP, started up the O2, cranked the tunes, and watched the Rio Grande valley unroll beneath our wings. The EFIS was showing 178 knots ground speed, and 20.1 mpg -- better than my truck.

Total fuel burn: 17 gallons. I laughed.