Buying my first aircraft

SOB8604

SOB8604

Pre-Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2017
Messages
59
Location
Massachusetts
Display Name
Display name:
OB
Hello all!

So I am seriously considering an aircraft for myself, and am looking for some experience, ideas, advice, etc. This may be a little long winded, so bear with me.

In reading posts here and abroad, watching youtube etc they say to define your mission and find an aircraft to meet that mission, so:
My mission basics: Build hours 250+, complete IR training, fly places for fun.

To expand upon this I'll lay out where I am at in life, currently sitting at 75 hours with some more flights scheduled at my local club over the course of the next month, when ready to purchase if all goes well be sitting around 85+ or so. I have a good friend of mine who is a CFII who has agreed to instruct me through my IR rating which is the next major (and in my case mandatory step) Past my IR training I will be building hours to 250 so I can test for my CPL. Past the hour building and IR training I love flying, I love day tripping, checking out new fields that $100+ dollar burger etc, and would certainly consider longer adventures (Oshkosh, regional fly ins etc) With my schedule can easily accommodate flying at a minimum 1x a week.

About me, 31 years old work several jobs in public safety, income is north of 100k a year and can basically work as much or as little as I wanted, hours are always there. Single, with a girlfriend who is 100% supportive of this and enjoys flying along also. Will have in the area of 30/35k from the sale of another item to put down towards the purchase, without dipping into current earnings and have told myself that 80K is the absolute top amount I am willing to look to purchase/finance.

What I am currently thinking as the absolute musts in an aircraft before I buy:
4 Seats (though filling 4 will probably never happen, 3 is a certain possibility, but I've found it nice to have the extra room)
low wing
180 HP (or better?)
IFR
GPS GNS430 or better

Aircraft: as I mentioned I have flown Piper aircraft exclusively and have to this point really enjoyed the experience, so naturally thinking Cherokee 180, Warrior, Archer etc. However where I do want to fly past 250 with my own aircraft and taking day trips and getting places is part of the plan do I want something with more than 180hp to move along a little quicker when I want?: Cherokee 235, Arrow, or something outside of the Piper family. Don't want something with crazy high TT and would love to find something sub 1k TBO on the engine.

Avionics: needs to be IFR certified, I want at-least a Garmin 430, is looking for a plane with an auto-pilot worth it? Never interacted with one, but folks seem to love em. Otherwise basic radios and gauges would be fine, have been looking at the Garmin G5 as a potential upgrade in the future to modernize a bit, suggestions.

Storage: Need to approach the local airports (will be either BVY or LWM) and take a look at those options, tie downs appear to be readily available, but would certainly prefer a hangar depending on availability and cost.

Insurance: I need to start talking to insurance companies to get an idea of any requirements they might need and shop around for quotes on policies.

I haven't really put any local feelers out for aircraft for sale, but just have been scouring trade a plane and controller to try and get an idea on the current used aircraft market, local to New England, NY/NJ/PA would be preferable and easier than coordinating a long distance pre-buy inspection, etc.

Ideally I'm looking to mid April to May to make this happen, the idea of owning my own plane near by (live about 15 minutes from BVY and LWM) to train in and fly around is exciting and the stuff of daydreaming. However its easy to get caught up in the moment and picture yourself in all sorts of aircraft so I'm doing my best to take a real objective look at this from all angles.

So that's where I'm at there is so much to think about when learning on how to buy a plane, so hopefully I'm not way out in left field here. Thanks!
 
Archer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
go for it! (I didn't see any actual questions in your post). grab an archer and build some time. easy to fly. well within ur price range.
 
Arrow or Cardinal. Get that gear lever!!!
 
Go complex while going for your IFR,a nice Arrow should fit your needs.
 
eman1200 said:
go for it! (I didn't see any actual questions in your post). grab an archer and build some time. easy to fly. well within ur price range.
Click to expand...

Haha just trying to feel out if I'm crazy or not in my thinking instead of direct questions. But we're all nuts so I guess I answered that one too.
 
Ravioli said:
Arrow or Cardinal. Get that gear lever!!!
Click to expand...
It's hard to fly inverted all the time to make the Cardinal a low wing.

I'd definitely consider a retract so you can do your commercial in it. There are almost certainly some mid body Mooneys (M20F and later) in your price range which is really the first usable 4 seat model. But you'd need to check one out in person as the size works great for some people and less so for others.
 
Well, if your priority is to build time vs. go places, get something slow.

If you want to travel places, get something fast.

Fast planes will build time just as well if you throttle back, but can still travel decently when desired and make time into a headwind.

My 4-place plane moves 145 knots true with just 180 hp, and has 670 lb paykoad with full fuel (5-1/2 hours worth). Check out all the options in your price range, and ask questions of owners you know, pilots you respect, type clubs and type-specific groups .

Have fun shopping! And for God's sake, get a Pre-Purchase Inspection!!
 
Regarding the autopilot question- if you are in an area where actual IFR is common (and possible with the type of aircraft you're buying), you will probably want to do some single-pilot XC in actual IMC. An autopilot is very, very, useful for this. If you can find an aircraft with functioning autopilot, it is a much more capable instrument platform.
 
80k could get you a C180 or a maule, both decent cross country planes and both are great for a younger couple who is active and likes to adventure.
 
I was in almost exactly your situation when I bought my first airplane. Started thinking Archer. That led to Tiger for more speed. My girlfriend said, "If you're going to do this, do it right. Get exactly what you want."

Which is how I ended up both marrying her and getting a Mooney 201.
 
SOB8604 said:
Hello all!

So I am seriously considering an aircraft for myself, and am looking for some experience, ideas, advice, etc. This may be a little long winded, so bear with me.

In reading posts here and abroad, watching youtube etc they say to define your mission and find an aircraft to meet that mission, so:
My mission basics: Build hours 250+, complete IR training, fly places for fun.

To expand upon this I'll lay out where I am at in life, currently sitting at 75 hours with some more flights scheduled at my local club over the course of the next month, when ready to purchase if all goes well be sitting around 85+ or so. I have a good friend of mine who is a CFII who has agreed to instruct me through my IR rating which is the next major (and in my case mandatory step) Past my IR training I will be building hours to 250 so I can test for my CPL. Past the hour building and IR training I love flying, I love day tripping, checking out new fields that $100+ dollar burger etc, and would certainly consider longer adventures (Oshkosh, regional fly ins etc) With my schedule can easily accommodate flying at a minimum 1x a week.

About me, 31 years old work several jobs in public safety, income is north of 100k a year and can basically work as much or as little as I wanted, hours are always there. Single, with a girlfriend who is 100% supportive of this and enjoys flying along also. Will have in the area of 30/35k from the sale of another item to put down towards the purchase, without dipping into current earnings and have told myself that 80K is the absolute top amount I am willing to look to purchase/finance.

What I am currently thinking as the absolute musts in an aircraft before I buy:
4 Seats (though filling 4 will probably never happen, 3 is a certain possibility, but I've found it nice to have the extra room)
low wing
180 HP (or better?)
IFR
GPS GNS430 or better

Aircraft: as I mentioned I have flown Piper aircraft exclusively and have to this point really enjoyed the experience, so naturally thinking Cherokee 180, Warrior, Archer etc. However where I do want to fly past 250 with my own aircraft and taking day trips and getting places is part of the plan do I want something with more than 180hp to move along a little quicker when I want?: Cherokee 235, Arrow, or something outside of the Piper family. Don't want something with crazy high TT and would love to find something sub 1k TBO on the engine.

Avionics: needs to be IFR certified, I want at-least a Garmin 430, is looking for a plane with an auto-pilot worth it? Never interacted with one, but folks seem to love em. Otherwise basic radios and gauges would be fine, have been looking at the Garmin G5 as a potential upgrade in the future to modernize a bit, suggestions.

Storage: Need to approach the local airports (will be either BVY or LWM) and take a look at those options, tie downs appear to be readily available, but would certainly prefer a hangar depending on availability and cost.

Insurance: I need to start talking to insurance companies to get an idea of any requirements they might need and shop around for quotes on policies.

I haven't really put any local feelers out for aircraft for sale, but just have been scouring trade a plane and controller to try and get an idea on the current used aircraft market, local to New England, NY/NJ/PA would be preferable and easier than coordinating a long distance pre-buy inspection, etc.

Ideally I'm looking to mid April to May to make this happen, the idea of owning my own plane near by (live about 15 minutes from BVY and LWM) to train in and fly around is exciting and the stuff of daydreaming. However its easy to get caught up in the moment and picture yourself in all sorts of aircraft so I'm doing my best to take a real objective look at this from all angles.

So that's where I'm at there is so much to think about when learning on how to buy a plane, so hopefully I'm not way out in left field here. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Broaden your experience with some non-piper aircraft, especially high wing. There are a few reasons why Cessna 172’s are the world’s most popular general aviation airplane. Then if you do not appreciate a better view, easier ingress and egress, stability and economical with good spare part availability for the easier landing characteristics of Pipers and other low wing aircraft at least you will know why. By the way have you ever seen a feathered low wing bird? :)
 
Briar Rabbit said:
Broaden your experience with some non-piper aircraft, especially high wing. There are a few reasons why Cessna 172’s are the world’s most popular general aviation airplane. Then if you do not appreciate a better view, easier ingress and egress, stability and economical with good spare part availability for the easier landing characteristics of Pipers and other low wing aircraft at least you will know why. By the way have you ever seen a feathered low wing bird? :)
Click to expand...
um.. what? low wings are generally more stable, I have flown both 172 and currently Archer. never going back to high wing. pipers generally land themselves, stall is non event, can be brought down to runway with the stall horn blaring, and parts are pretty much everywhere. never flew a high wing commercial plane :)

and .. 1...2...3...
 
Why get a trainer plane you can rent from rent from nearly anywhere, never got the appeal of buying a 172 or PA28, it's like learning to ride a single speed bike with training wheels as a kid, but than as an adult buying single speed bike with training wheels to ride
 
Last edited:
WannFly said:
um.. what? low wings are generally more stable, I have flown both 172 and currently Archer. never going back to high wing. pipers generally land themselves, stall is non event, can be brought down to runway with the stall horn blaring, and parts are pretty much everywhere. never flew a high wing commercial plane :)

and .. 1...2...3...
Click to expand...
Low wing single engine airplanes are great airplanes but the only reason they are as stable as high wing is because they have more dihedral. Less stable aircraft have faster roll rates and is one in of the reasons why fighter aircraft are either mid wing or low wing. Case in point is the LTV A7 which had negative dihedral just for the purpose of faster dog fighting capability but was almost impossible to fly I have been told if the wrong black box goes out. I think if you put your archer in a 60 degree bank and a 182 in the same configuration 60 degree bank at the same airspeed you are going to have more up elevator required to maintain this bank and altitude. I do agree low wings combined with their more forgiving strut style gear make them easier to land. It depends on the mission, bonanzas are great aircraft but I don’t consider them as stable in an instrument approach as some other airplanes for instance. But I will admit a personal bias. Did not mean to be critical of any airplane but before the OP excludes an airplane with such limited experience I think he owes it to himself to try out a few and was trying to point out some additional benefits he may not have thought of.
 
Someone's gotta say it: you need a Bonanza. Vice-less airplanes with remarkable versatility, and easier to master than any of the aircraft mentioned so far. Easily flown with your level of experience, but insurance will demand a lot of dual hours; no problem if you use that airplane for your instrument and commercial (it's almost a consolation prize once you nail the IR). Now, identifying and evaluating the appropriate Bonanza is a whole topic itself...I'd simply point you in the direction of a Debonair (modernized) or an F33A. Good luck and God bless.
 
SOB8604 said:
So I am seriously considering an aircraft for myself, and am looking for some experience, ideas, advice, etc. This may be a little long winded, so bear with me.

In reading posts here and abroad, watching youtube etc they say to define your mission and find an aircraft to meet that mission, so:
My mission basics: Build hours 250+, complete IR training, fly places for fun.
Click to expand...

I find myself in a very similar PIC time and mission mindset as you. Personally I keep coming back to the Beech Sundowner, but I'm a tall guy so space is good for me. I also like FG Cardinals (from a mx/insurance perspective) and got an insurance quote (from AIR) for around $1k with a partner who is pre-solo student.
 
I was basically in your exact situation last year. The only difference is that I'm not in a hurry to build hours because I'll have enough experience when I'm ready and able to advance toward CPL. I had 90 odd hours and wanted a plane for me, my wife and my dog to go travel places and visit family and something that was cheap enough to not break the bank, easy to maintain, etc. Something with a 430 or better, decent avionics that wouldn't require massive upgrades anytime soon, enough time on the engine to not worry about the engine (still putting $$ aside "just in case" but many years out from being a concern).

My recommendation is an Archer (Arrows don't provide much more speed but are considerably more complex and proportionally more expensive).

I would argue that you should buy the plane for your 95% mission, which seems to be building time and going places. I'd say rent the complex plane if you need to get somewhere faster and when you are building for your CPL. Over the next 200 hours, you're going to get PLENTY of time with IR training and enjoying the plane, you don't NEED to go faster/complex right now. Until/unless you're sitting on plenty of money, why own and operate a more expensive plane when you're primarily wanting to use it for time and enjoyment?

You can find a 180hp Archer with a 430, good avionics (probably even ADS-B and WAAS capable), and a low time engine for 60k and expect maintenance bills that are not over the top. It's SO easy to get caught up in niceties and wants, but I would recommend a conservative approach that you'll still think "wow, I own this plane!" at the end of the day.

Unless money is no factor, then $%@!^ it and go big!
 
I kind of went down this road too. Ended up buying a Socata TB-20. Forgiving, easy to fly plane, plus reasonable speed for cross country trips. I wanted 2 doors, 4 seats and low wing. Bought mine for well under $100k two years ago, it's well equipped for IFR (had a Garmin 430W + AP) they seem to have went up some since then (like a lot of planes).

I think I kind of agree with the saying "buy your last plane first". I'm not saying it'll be my last plane, but it'll serve my needs for years!
 
I can say almost without any doubt you will want something faster than a 172/Archer once you have 250+ hours.

That said a 172/Archer will keep you happy until then and if you buy a good common training aircraft like that, you should be able to sell it quickly without too much fuss.

The flipside is that buying/selling an airplane is a PITA. Its at the upper end of your budget but you could probably find a nice Mooney 201 or a Bonanza of some form. You may need to do about 10-15 hrs dual in the airplane to satisfy insurance and get comfortable in it. This can be done with your instrument training.
 
-Be patient when buying. Really take your time. There is a looooooot of crap out there, and each owner still thinks it is worth top dollar.
-Get a really good prebuy from an independent mechanic that knows that type of plane.
-If you think you want something fancier, go for it now. It is a major PITA to buy and sell. Crap planes when buying, tons of weirdos when selling.

Just do it since you have a supportive significant other. We used our 172 to fly all over the place and had a ton of fun. She was much more sad when it sold then I was, although rumor has it I may be replacing it sooner than planned with something fancier.
 
There's a beautiful DA-40, 1/3 share for sale hangared at LWM right now. Have you considered partnerships?
 
This is useless. Everyone will tell the OP to get their favorite aircraft no matter what mission the OP think's he needs. Says me stick to the club and fly whatever they have, still the cheapest way to participate in aviation.
 
I think that if you make a list of the planes you're considering and start doing some shopping, you're going to find a relatively small selection that meet your requirements at your price point.

Be sure to research where you'll be able to get your plane serviced nearby. Each type has its own quirks and it will help to know where the experts are, particularly if you need someone to troubleshoot a quirky problem.

Given your requirements, my first thought is an Arrow. It'll easily get you through your commercial rating and help build complex time, which will lower your insurance if you step up to something more expensive like a Bonanza.

My second thought is to rethink the low wing thing and try a 177RG. You may like it more with the wing behind you and the extra utility it provides with 2 doors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Agree 100% with Eric's post above. Spend an hour or two in a Cessna before committing to a low wing, it opens up more options.
 
SOB8604 said:
Hello all!

So I am seriously considering an aircraft for myself, and am looking for some experience, ideas, advice, etc. This may be a little long winded, so bear with me.

In reading posts here and abroad, watching youtube etc they say to define your mission and find an aircraft to meet that mission, so:
My mission basics: Build hours 250+, complete IR training, fly places for fun.

To expand upon this I'll lay out where I am at in life, currently sitting at 75 hours with some more flights scheduled at my local club over the course of the next month, when ready to purchase if all goes well be sitting around 85+ or so. I have a good friend of mine who is a CFII who has agreed to instruct me through my IR rating which is the next major (and in my case mandatory step) Past my IR training I will be building hours to 250 so I can test for my CPL. Past the hour building and IR training I love flying, I love day tripping, checking out new fields that $100+ dollar burger etc, and would certainly consider longer adventures (Oshkosh, regional fly ins etc) With my schedule can easily accommodate flying at a minimum 1x a week.

About me, 31 years old work several jobs in public safety, income is north of 100k a year and can basically work as much or as little as I wanted, hours are always there. Single, with a girlfriend who is 100% supportive of this and enjoys flying along also. Will have in the area of 30/35k from the sale of another item to put down towards the purchase, without dipping into current earnings and have told myself that 80K is the absolute top amount I am willing to look to purchase/finance.

What I am currently thinking as the absolute musts in an aircraft before I buy:
4 Seats (though filling 4 will probably never happen, 3 is a certain possibility, but I've found it nice to have the extra room)
low wing
180 HP (or better?)
IFR
GPS GNS430 or better

Aircraft: as I mentioned I have flown Piper aircraft exclusively and have to this point really enjoyed the experience, so naturally thinking Cherokee 180, Warrior, Archer etc. However where I do want to fly past 250 with my own aircraft and taking day trips and getting places is part of the plan do I want something with more than 180hp to move along a little quicker when I want?: Cherokee 235, Arrow, or something outside of the Piper family. Don't want something with crazy high TT and would love to find something sub 1k TBO on the engine.

Avionics: needs to be IFR certified, I want at-least a Garmin 430, is looking for a plane with an auto-pilot worth it? Never interacted with one, but folks seem to love em. Otherwise basic radios and gauges would be fine, have been looking at the Garmin G5 as a potential upgrade in the future to modernize a bit, suggestions.

Storage: Need to approach the local airports (will be either BVY or LWM) and take a look at those options, tie downs appear to be readily available, but would certainly prefer a hangar depending on availability and cost.

Insurance: I need to start talking to insurance companies to get an idea of any requirements they might need and shop around for quotes on policies.

I haven't really put any local feelers out for aircraft for sale, but just have been scouring trade a plane and controller to try and get an idea on the current used aircraft market, local to New England, NY/NJ/PA would be preferable and easier than coordinating a long distance pre-buy inspection, etc.

Ideally I'm looking to mid April to May to make this happen, the idea of owning my own plane near by (live about 15 minutes from BVY and LWM) to train in and fly around is exciting and the stuff of daydreaming. However its easy to get caught up in the moment and picture yourself in all sorts of aircraft so I'm doing my best to take a real objective look at this from all angles.

So that's where I'm at there is so much to think about when learning on how to buy a plane, so hopefully I'm not way out in left field here. Thanks!
Click to expand...
You'd be hard pressed to beat a good ol, 172 for your mission, slow enough to build time, fast enough to do the fly around part.
 
With your down payment and ability to finance up to $80K, I like the Dakota. Hard to beat the speed and simplicity. Lower insurance costs too because of fixed gear.
 
before I bough mine, I was told the cheapest part about aircraft ownership is the cost price. it is true. have / keep some buffer
 
I've done a little browsing on Trade A Plane because, well, it beats working. What I found is that your budget is probably on the low side if you want a retract, and not many planes in this class have the type of GPS you're looking for. In fact, most have just basic IFR equipment with obsolete radios. Mooneys in your price range tend to have good IFR panels, but have at least one red flag. Damage history, missing logs, engines near TBO, etc. They're not necessarily show-stoppers, but you need to be very careful when buying a plane like that. If it were my first time buying a plane and I wasn't using a broker, I'd skip those.

The Beech Debonair series also comes in at your price point, but most of them have pretty sparse panels at that price as well.

Cherokees: Not many examples equipped like you want, but there appears to be a good supply at a price where you could afford to upgrade the panel.

Beech Musketeer/Sierra: Less supply, mostly poorly equipped, but could afford to upgrade the panel.

If you can get your purchase price up to about $110k you get a lot more options, including nice older model 33 or 35 Bonanzas that have some good upgrades and Mooneys without red flags.

By the way... the only Cessna I'd consider for your mission and preferences is the 177RG. If you have a low-wing preference, you'll positively sneer at a 172 or 182, and Cessnas demand a bit of a premium over comparable Pipers.
 
Grumman Tiger sounds perfect for you. You can most certainly get a great IFR Tiger for under 80K. It's faster than the other 180-hp's (except a Mooney), it's cheap to maintain (as far as airplanes go), good fuel burn (9-10 gph), super fun to fly, back seats fold down for excellent storage, etc...

I bought a '92 Tiger 1.5 years ago after flying a Cessna Cardinal for 8 years....no regrets whatsoever.

If you plan to fly IFR in the clouds, the autopilot is great to have. I did all my training without one, but my Tiger has one and it really helps reduce the load.
 
I agree on the Grumman Tiger. For $80K, you can get a low time IFR Tiger and buy a lot of training, fuel, instructor fees, insurance. All of that is good, but the plane is awesome. Fun to fly, cheap to maintain and fast considering hp, fixed gear and pitch.
 
Like 8,603 SOB’s ain’t enuf, now we got one more. Welcome to the joint, good luck finding the plane you want. Figure out what your expenses are going to be to maintain it. Now double it. If all goes well you’ll have some money to play with.
 
TheFB said:
I agree on the Grumman Tiger. For $80K, you can get a low time IFR Tiger and buy a lot of training, fuel, instructor fees, insurance. All of that is good, but the plane is awesome. Fun to fly, cheap to maintain and fast considering hp, fixed gear and pitch.
Click to expand...

I like the Grummans, but they're in short supply.
 
Eric Gleason said:
I like the Grummans, but they're in short supply.
Click to expand...

That is accurate; I went into my purchase that I just needed one... The OP seems ready to buy quickly. I probably shopped for 8 months. I was dead set, right or wrong. I got a great plane but not everybody can shop, wait, etc.
 
Don't listen to anyone on here. Buy the plane YOU like! Buy the plane YOU want! If it were me, (and I'm only telling you because you asked) I'd say an Arrow. That will give you retract/high performance time while you get your IFR. The best advice I can give you is get something with good avionics! Every time I get prices, the avionics guy wants $20,000 for a 430W and ADSB. Good luck and have fun!!!
 
Oh, jeez, I meant to mention the ADSB issue in my market research post. Very, very few of the planes I saw at the $80k price point had ADSB. Definitely another reason to either up your purchase price or to budget for upgrades.

Were I in your position, I'd probably plan on financing most of the airplane purchase ($80k-ish) and using most of the cash for a big panel upgrade. I'd also be looking to buy into or form a partnership in an airplane that met my needs.
 
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