Buying first plane or the 2nd plane?

Best first and kinda 2nd forever plane

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Ben Anderson

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gringopilot
Just finished instrument. Want to time build but also have something nice for the family (me, wife and 1 yr old) to take some regional or perhaps longer trips with. Main goal is commercial then 1500 hrs for ATP. I travel for work currently from Nebraska to NY, Ohio, PA, Washington DC, Texas, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin. So it would be nice to fly myself instead of airlines sometimes. My budget is $50 to $60k. I want a WAAS GPS or pay $30 $40k and add a G650 from my local shop. (they can do this for about $15k). I am estimating annual expenses to be around $15k per year and would like to stay around there or less.
I am in between 180HP fixed gear and retractables with same HP. Insurance is about $1k difference for me annually.
Choices I am looking at:

1. Grumman Tiger. Probably my top choice but concerned about parts availability and high priced for fixed gear.

2. Mooney M20. Basically the retractable option. I've never flown one but I and the wife do like to have more speed on the trips (but I am time building too) but this plane will be kept for many years if not decades.

3. Beechcraft Sundowner or Musketeer. Downside slow but nice roomy cabins and seem quality airframes. Ive heard the Musketeer Customer III can do about 130 knots? This would be good enough I think.

4. Bonanza. But concerned about the tail issues like everyone else it seems. Appear to have more incidents of failure even with the reinforcing the FAA mandated...

5. Cessna 182 or a 180 HP 172. My mechanic loves Cessnas...

So time builder, but also family x country machine for 3 (possibly 4 later) but kids are very young now and unborn some of them. I travel multi state for work so occasionally would like to fly myself vs airlines. I like cheaper maintenance of the fixed gear 180 HP but I love speed. Thanks for any input. I'm sure there's many threads here and I've read a bunch of em...but this is my version.
 
182.


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A 182 is like a roomier faster 172. Good first plane as a forever plane. Lot of people take this route for good reason. Cessna's parts, mechanics, training is available on about every field in the country. Nothing wrong with a good 172, if it fits your mission profile.
 
Another vote for the 182. Definitely worth spending some time in one. It’s a huge upgrade over a 172.
 
I fly M20E but if I needed to carry a woman and a child, I'd go with the 182, even if it's a bit slower. BTW, it may come as a surprise, even prompt a vigorous disagreement, but a 182 is about as fast as Tiger. Just burns more gas, is all. My M20E beats 182, but not by much. It's noticeable when locals do fly-outs.

If you had a $120k budget, you could get an A36 Bo that met your mission requirements and were even faster than my M20E. But your budget is for an old 33 with an early IO-470.

Well, you can hope for Corona to depress prices. But probably not 2x. Trump is already talking about "reopening the country".
 
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182 or Bo but both are gonna be expensive time builders.
 
zaitcev said:
I fly M20E but if I needed to carry a woman and a child, I'd go with the 182, even if it's a bit slower. BTW, it may come as a surprise, even prompt a vigorous disagreement, but a 182 is about as fast as Tiger. Just burns more gas, is all. My M20E beats 182, but not by much. It's noticeable when locals do fly-outs.

If you had a $120k budget, you could get an A36 Bo that met your mission requirements and were even faster than my M20E. But your budget is for an old 33 with an early IO-470.

Well, you can hope for Corona to depress prices. But probably not 2x. Trump is already talking about "reopening the country".
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I am surprised.. i have been seriously considering the efficiency of the vintage Mooney. They seem to be able to carry a decent amount of weight even with full tanks. Most of my flying will be solo due to the time building factor and my work trips...but occasionally the wife and kid will go with or I will be picking up one other person. Can you clarify more? is the mooney just too low on useful load>? Yeah i hear you on the budget but I can't really do more than $60k right now. I want to play for the plane in full cash with no loan...unless you have an idea how to convince a CPA wife to take out a $60k loan lol on an airplane...
 
Sinistar said:
182 or Bo but both are gonna be expensive time builders.
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Yes I have really debated buying a 2 seater Cessna 150/2, Piper Tomahawk, or Beech Skipper but the useful load is just terrible on them. I'm over 200 lbs and to not even be able to carry a 2nd person with but half tanks....it just seems to kill the usefulness of the plane. I need a 4 place unfortunately. I do like the Lycoming O 360 as ive heard its bulletproof and does pretty well at 10 GPH...
 
zaitcev said:
I fly M20E but if I needed to carry a woman and a child, I'd go with the 182, even if it's a bit slower. BTW, it may come as a surprise, even prompt a vigorous disagreement, but a 182 is about as fast as Tiger. Just burns more gas, is all. My M20E beats 182, but not by much. It's noticeable when locals do fly-outs.

If you had a $120k budget, you could get an A36 Bo that met your mission requirements and were even faster than my M20E. But your budget is for an old 33 with an early IO-470.

Well, you can hope for Corona to depress prices. But probably not 2x. Trump is already talking about "reopening the country".
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Don't think $120k is buying a decent A36 right now... maybe a straight 36. A nice 182P/Q/R is $120k+. I get about 145kts at 13gph in cruise at 8500. Not the most fun for tooling around, but it's a good load up everything and go for a long ways airplane.
 
Ben Anderson said:
I am surprised.. i have been seriously considering the efficiency of the vintage Mooney. They seem to be able to carry a decent amount of weight even with full tanks. Most of my flying will be solo due to the time building factor and my work trips...but occasionally the wife and kid will go with or I will be picking up one other person. Can you clarify more? is the mooney just too low on useful load>?...
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This just goes to show the horrible info you can get on the internet, especially given he’s a mooney owner (supposedly). I’ve flown in an E with two guys over 6’3” and one guy who’s 4’22” and it was fine. Not saying I’d want to fly for hours that way but for the 1 hour flight we did it was fine. Substitute one of those guys with your lil lady and the other guy with a baby and you’ll have plenty of room. There’s a guy who does videos who flies in a C or E with his wife and baby, see if you can find that link (I’ll look later) and you’ll get a good idea. I think one of the vids he flew to Ocracoke. I’m not saying it’s your best choice (even though it is) but to imply there’s only room for one person is flat out idiotic. Also, an F model has even more room. I had a mini Andre the Giant in the back of mine and it was fine.
 
Have go with the 182 given the choices. Looks like it will fit your mission.
 
You and your wife need to sit in a Mooney, you’ll know immediately if you will like it. Remember that she’ll probably need to sit in back with the baby. Getting in and out will be the challenge for any small plane.
 
Ben Anderson said:
Just finished instrument. Want to time build but also have something nice for the family (me, wife and 1 yr old) to take some regional or perhaps longer trips with. Main goal is commercial then 1500 hrs for ATP. I travel for work currently from Nebraska to NY, Ohio, PA, Washington DC, Texas, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin. So it would be nice to fly myself instead of airlines sometimes. My budget is $50 to $60k. I want a WAAS GPS or pay $30 $40k and add a G650 from my local shop. (they can do this for about $15k). I am estimating annual expenses to be around $15k per year and would like to stay around there or less.
I am in between 180HP fixed gear and retractables with same HP. Insurance is about $1k difference for me annually.
Choices I am looking at:

1. Grumman Tiger. Probably my top choice but concerned about parts availability and high priced for fixed gear.

2. Mooney M20. Basically the retractable option. I've never flown one but I and the wife do like to have more speed on the trips (but I am time building too) but this plane will be kept for many years if not decades.

3. Beechcraft Sundowner or Musketeer. Downside slow but nice roomy cabins and seem quality airframes. Ive heard the Musketeer Customer III can do about 130 knots? This would be good enough I think.

4. Bonanza. But concerned about the tail issues like everyone else it seems. Appear to have more incidents of failure even with the reinforcing the FAA mandated...

5. Cessna 182 or a 180 HP 172. My mechanic loves Cessnas...

So time builder, but also family x country machine for 3 (possibly 4 later) but kids are very young now and unborn some of them. I travel multi state for work so occasionally would like to fly myself vs airlines. I like cheaper maintenance of the fixed gear 180 HP but I love speed. Thanks for any input. I'm sure there's many threads here and I've read a bunch of em...but this is my version.
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Hey Ben, for a lot of x country, an M20F will blow the flaps off a 182, for less fuel (cost). I’d get the Cessna only if I had a big enough backyard to land it in...
Get a Mooney with tank bladders. Tiger would be really fun, but hard to find at that price point.

Re: parts and Mx on Tigers, call FletchAir here in TX. He is the primary “Grumman Xpert” and will give you honest answers. Re: Mooney parts and Mx, Maxwell in Longview, TX. He is the Mooney version of FletchAir. Also, if you’re researching a Mooney purchase, call All American Aircraft Sales in Kestrel, TX. Nice folks, and they will tell you what is coming in beyond the frames listed on their site.

If you want to check out the Mooneys at All American or FletchAir, you’re welcome to stay with us - we live close to both in SA.

You asked about my Grumman in another thread- it was dirt cheap to purchase and costs peanuts to fly (5-6 gph 110-125 mph). AA1B with an engine STC. $50k would cover my Mx, fuel, insurance, and the purchase price for 1500 hours. (not sayin you should, just sayin it’s cheap). ...But with a trip to the east coast, a Mooney would be eating clams in the Carolinas while I was still eating bbq in Memphis.

Spent a lot of time in Nebraska over the years. Family still raises cattle and compete in saddle broncs out of North Platte and Valentine.
 
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Surprised not to see any Piper aircraft in your list of options considering your budget and mission. I really adore my Arrow 2, so, I’ll refrain from gushing over it... But they (Pipers) are plentiful, relatively inexpensive, and cover a wide range. there has to be something in the lineup that would work for you...
 
I voted 182 but given your budget that's going to be hard. Tiger suits price, goals and family size.
 
“4. Bonanza. But concerned about the tail issues like everyone else it seems. Appear to have more incidents of failure even with the reinforcing the FAA mandated...”

what???
 
.....and if you do converse with David Fletcher, ask him what percentage of Grumman Tiger owners are ex-military or ATPs - its a telling %
 
Ben Anderson said:
1. Grumman Tiger. Probably my top choice but concerned about parts availability and high priced for fixed gear.
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Tigers seem to vacillate between overvalued and undervalued. You could take a chance and wait. Regardless, this one is the most fun option on your list.
2. Mooney M20. Basically the retractable option. I've never flown one but I and the wife do like to have more speed on the trips (but I am time building too) but this plane will be kept for many years if not decades.
Click to expand...
You really need to narrow down the choices between short vs mid vs long body, carb vs fuel-injected vs turbo, pre-LoPresti vs post-LoPresti, etc.
3. Beechcraft Sundowner or Musketeer. Downside slow but nice roomy cabins and seem quality airframes. Ive heard the Musketeer Customer III can do about 130 knots? This would be good enough I think.
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130kts for the retract. 115 for fixed gear. And you're burning an extra 1gph. Also consider that the angle valve 200hp IO-360 isn't considered as bulletproof as the parallel valve 180hp IO-360 (this also applies to the Mooney and Tiger).
4. Bonanza. But concerned about the tail issues like everyone else it seems. Appear to have more incidents of failure even with the reinforcing the FAA mandated...
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Consider this a stretch goal. It's a lot of airplane to bite off for a first time owner.
5. Cessna 182 or a 180 HP 172. My mechanic loves Cessnas...
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Consider this the safe option. Although with the 182 you'll be burning 30% more gas, 50% more cylinders and 80% more prop maintenance. The 195hp/210hp 172XP is also something to consider.
 
Mechanics love Cessnas because they’re easy to work on and hate Mooney because they’re not. Good news is they are more than happy to let you do some of the work if you choose.
 
A Tiger, older M20F or older 182 could work for your budget if you happened to find one with some avionics upgrades already done. I'd also consider Arrows and possibly RG Cardinals. Curious as to you why you're looking to build time for an ATP. Are you planning to change careers?
 
Some thoughts:

Beech V-tail Bonanza

The V tailed Beech Bonanzas can be a real bargain, offering excellent cruise performance for very little money. However, they are a bit more expensive to work on as Beech engineers of that era were not very good about walking out in the hangar and getting feedback from mechanics about ease of maintenance. You also want to pay attention to the weight and CG limits on the older V tails, so consider the weight and balance issues on the particular plane before you buy.

The issue with the V-tail failures in my opinion has less to do with the strength of the design than with the dutch roll traits of the aircraft, especially with tip tanks installed. It's a fairly challenging aircraft to fly on instruments in turbulence. Turbulence induces a dutch roll trait that requires you to briefly cross the controls to dampen it out, and in moderate turbulence you end up doing that a lot. Add actual IFR in clouds and turbulence and it can be more than a not so proficient instrument pilot can handle. That then leads to the pilot ending up in a descending spiral dive, exceeding VNE and pulling the ruddervators off the plane. Thus the V-tail doctor killer moniker. It's not entirely undeserved, but it also references "doctors" who have a bad habit of not flying as frequently as they should. I had one AME who crashed his 206 on instruments and a second who had a near miss and stopped flying as he recognized he didn't fly enough to do it safely. If you fly on a regular basis and stay current on instruments, then IFR in a V tail Bonanza is not an issue. If you are only planning to fly VFR, it's also a non-issue. If you however will only rarely fly it on instruments, choose another aircraft.

Cessna 182, and the Piper equivalent PA-28-235 (under whatever name):

For all around aircraft use, a C-182 or a PA-28-235 is tough to beat. Both are good load haulers that are honest four seat aircraft with decent cruise performance. For time building purposes, if you are willing to slow down and cruise at 50-55% power the fuel burn isn't much more than a 150-160 hp Cessna 172, PA-28-150 or PA-28-161. However, as time builders and in terms of overall maintenance costs, those 230-235 hp aircraft are more expensive than the 4 cylinder (but really only 3 seat and full fuel) C-172, or PA-28-161, etc. since you are dealing with 6 cylinders rather than 4 cylinders, and a constant speed prop rather than a fixed pitch prop.

Cessna 172Q, R, or S, and the Piper equivalent (long before Cessna got smart and put an O-360 in a Cessna 172) PA-28-180:

These Cessnas, will get you better performance and better load hauling ability - if not always more legal useful load.

A Cherokee PA-28-180, PA-28-181 Archer, etc however will give you about 1000 pounds of useful load, and cruise at about 125 kts at 65% power and 9.5 gph. With 50 gallons of fuel on board you've got enough for 700 pounds of people - easily enough for 2 adults and 2 children and if you just fill it to the tabs you can easily fill all four seats with adults. It is in my opinion the sweet spot for what you want to do with it. If you are seriously thinking about a 180 hp Cessna 172, or even a Cessna 182, consider an Archer as a very viable alternative.

Grumman Tiger:

It partly depends where you plan to operate them. The castering nose wheel and generally higher stall speed make them not so great candidates for short fields or grass strips. Shimmy also can be an issue and you will go through brakes a lot more often since it's your primary method of steering on the ground. They are however very slick aircraft with excellent speed for the power (but less useful load) and than a PA-28-180). The canopy is also a consideration. Things get much wetter in the rain, and heat can be an issue in a warm climate in the summer.

A non requested underdog:

PA-22-150 or PA-22-160 Tripacer

If you don't mind classic aircraft, you can get a creampuff Tri-pacer that will give you all the performance of an older Cessna 172 for a lot less money in equally nice condition. If you find a PA-22/20 (a Tripacer that has been converted to the Pacer's tail wheel configuration) you'll gain both speed and useful load, plus off field performance. Practically speaking, useful load is limited by what you can fit through the doors. People are starting to re-discover the Tri-pacers as "classic" rather than "old" aircraft and prices are on the rise for nice examples.
 
I voted 182. Probably because that's what I fly, but also because it gives your family room to grow (not just people but baggage). It's a great instrument platform and it's fast enough to make those longer trips possible (a 900nm trip in a 172 is something you write a book about, not something you do on a routine basis), albeit still all-day affairs.

182s will always be popular so resale is good if you do decide on something bigger/faster later. But if you're like me, you'll decide that it's just fine for 98% of your missions.
 
Can anything on this list be purchased turnkey for $50k-$60k? I assume turnkey since you say you need to drop the budget if a WAAS GPS needs to be added, so I also assume a runout engine is out.

This has been my wish list for the past few years with the addition of the FG or RG 177 Cardinal.

One item to keep in mind for V-tails: There is a lack of replacement magnesium tail feathers and Textron is not currently making any more. They may be convinced to make them, but are expected to be very expensive. This is not an issue for any of the straight tails. Jump over to beechtalk.com for more info.
 
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eman1200 said:
This just goes to show the horrible info you can get on the internet, especially given he’s a mooney owner (supposedly). I’ve flown in an E with two guys over 6’3” and one guy who’s 4’22” and it was fine. Not saying I’d want to fly for hours that way but for the 1 hour flight we did it was fine. Substitute one of those guys with your lil lady and the other guy with a baby and you’ll have plenty of room. There’s a guy who does videos who flies in a C or E with his wife and baby, see if you can find that link (I’ll look later) and you’ll get a good idea. I think one of the vids he flew to Ocracoke. I’m not saying it’s your best choice (even though it is) but to imply there’s only room for one person is flat out idiotic. Also, an F model has even more room. I had a mini Andre the Giant in the back of mine and it was fine.
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Is this guy with the Mooney doing videos on YouTube?
 
Ben Anderson said:
Is this guy with the Mooney doing videos on YouTube?
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here's the link. don't quote me, I could be wrong, but I 'think' this guy came on PoA and had a big argument with basically everyone on here and then he ran off. I could be mistaking him with someone else, but it doesn't matter, here's the vid.
 
atbroome said:
Can anything on this list be purchased turnkey for $50k-$60k? I assume turnkey since you say you need to drop the budget if a WAAS GPS needs to be added, so I also assume a runout engine is out.

This has been my wish list for the past few years with the addition of the FG or RG 177 Cardinal.

One item to keep in mind for V-tails: There is a lack of replacement magnesium tail feathers and Textron is not currently making any more. They may be convinced to make them, but are expected to be very expensive. This is not an issue for any of the straight tails. Jump over to beechtalk.com for more info.
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I think $50/60k is kinda on the low end for some of these...but I think it can be done. A Garmin 430 WAAS will be enough for the time being. Plus Garmin has that new cheaper option like 330? Basically a waas GPS with no comms thru it. I think could be installed for around $8k. So spend #50k on plane and 8 for the GPS and I'm still okay. I am trying to do this with full cash payment instead of a loan so if I really need to I can borrow $20k or something to make the right plane work.
I definitely found some vintage Mooney M20s in the price range that appear mostly ready to fly and in good condition. The 182 would be harder for sure. The beech sundowners are in the 40s mostly. Grumman Tigers are tougher at that price too. Travelers and Cheetahs you can find though.
 
GrummanBear said:
Hey Ben, for a lot of x country, an M20F will blow the flaps off a 182, for less fuel (cost). I’d get the Cessna only if I had a big enough backyard to land it in...
Get a Mooney with tank bladders. Tiger would be really fun, but hard to find at that price point.

Re: parts and Mx on Tigers, call FletchAir here in TX. He is the primary “Grumman Xpert” and will give you honest answers. Re: Mooney parts and Mx, Maxwell in Longview, TX. He is the Mooney version of FletchAir. Also, if you’re researching a Mooney purchase, call All American Aircraft Sales in Kestrel, TX. Nice folks, and they will tell you what is coming in beyond the frames listed on their site.

If you want to check out the Mooneys at All American or FletchAir, you’re welcome to stay with us - we live close to both in SA.

You asked about my Grumman in another thread- it was dirt cheap to purchase and costs peanuts to fly (5-6 gph 110-125 mph). AA1B with an engine STC. $50k would cover my Mx, fuel, insurance, and the purchase price for 1500 hours. (not sayin you should, just sayin it’s cheap). ...But with a trip to the east coast, a Mooney would be eating clams in the Carolinas while I was still eating bbq in Memphis.

Spent a lot of time in Nebraska over the years. Family still raises cattle and compete in saddle broncs out of North Platte and Valentine.
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The AA1A or B is super tempting for time building but I flew one once and the stall characteristics were a little interesting and then I saw some info about how they tend to try to spin? Plus I think the useful load is kinda light for wife and I and baby. But for time building I like the spend $30k to 1500 hrs lol would save some time from having to instruct for a long time.
 
andersenpj said:
Surprised not to see any Piper aircraft in your list of options considering your budget and mission. I really adore my Arrow 2, so, I’ll refrain from gushing over it... But they (Pipers) are plentiful, relatively inexpensive, and cover a wide range. there has to be something in the lineup that would work for you...
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My only issue with Pipers. (I used a Cherokee 160 for private pilot and loved it). Is that AD about the wing spars...the wife doesn't really want me to mess with that. I know it only applies to certain types of Pipers used in flight training but I was just trying to avoid the whole issue. I don't want to start a firefight on here but that's why I had shied away from the piper stuff.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
You and your wife need to sit in a Mooney, you’ll know immediately if you will like it. Remember that she’ll probably need to sit in back with the baby. Getting in and out will be the challenge for any small plane.
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The good news is we are both fairly young (I'm in my 30s) so I'm not too concerned with getting in and out of planes for us yet. I do really want to sit in one. If anyone lives near Omaha NE I would love to be able to come by the hangar with my mask on.
 
Certainly can’t beat a Tiger! 52 gals, @10gph, 930 lbs useful, sliding canopy for ease of entry and cool breeze on those hot days, plenty of room for 3, perhaps 4 if kids in the back two seats, 135 Kts true at 7500 ft. Great visibility, and sporty handling.

See... WWW.AYA.ORG
 
acluffpoa said:
“4. Bonanza. But concerned about the tail issues like everyone else it seems. Appear to have more incidents of failure even with the reinforcing the FAA mandated...”

what???
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I was researching the V tail failure issues. It sounds like it can still be an issue occasionally
 
asicer said:
Tigers seem to vacillate between overvalued and undervalued. You could take a chance and wait. Regardless, this one is the most fun option on your list.

You really need to narrow down the choices between short vs mid vs long body, carb vs fuel-injected vs turbo, pre-LoPresti vs post-LoPresti, etc.
130kts for the retract. 115 for fixed gear. And you're burning an extra 1gph. Also consider that the angle valve 200hp IO-360 isn't considered as bulletproof as the parallel valve 180hp IO-360 (this also applies to the Mooney and Tiger).
Consider this a stretch goal. It's a lot of airplane to bite off for a first time owner.

Consider this the safe option. Although with the 182 you'll be burning 30% more gas, 50% more cylinders and 80% more prop maintenance. The 195hp/210hp 172XP is also something to consider.
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This is great info on each model thank you. On the Mooneys I am mostly looking at nice C or Es. I would consider F or G for a bit of extra info. I'm looking at all 60s models up to about '68. Good to know about the difference in motors on the 360 180 HP and 200 hp...I wasn't aware of the 180 being more reliable.
 
Brad Z said:
I voted 182. Probably because that's what I fly, but also because it gives your family room to grow (not just people but baggage). It's a great instrument platform and it's fast enough to make those longer trips possible (a 900nm trip in a 172 is something you write a book about, not something you do on a routine basis), albeit still all-day affairs.

182s will always be popular so resale is good if you do decide on something bigger/faster later. But if you're like me, you'll decide that it's just fine for 98% of your missions.
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What speeds do you see on the 182 for cruise? I mean trade a plane has speeds at 75 percent cruise but I never know how reliable the book speeds are.
 
Rcmutz said:
Certainly can’t beat a Tiger! 52 gals, @10gph, 930 lbs useful, sliding canopy for ease of entry and cool breeze on those hot days, plenty of room for 3, perhaps 4 if kids in the back two seats, 135 Kts true at 7500 ft. Great visibility, and sporty handling.

See... WWW.AYA.ORG
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How are Tigers for IFR? They seem touchy and quick so I wonder a bit about IFR. I'm also on the Grumman gang email chains so maybe I'll check there as well.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Mechanics love Cessnas because they’re easy to work on and hate Mooney because they’re not. Good news is they are more than happy to let you do some of the work if you choose.
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This is my biggest concern with the Mooney. Labor hours and retractable gear. The numbers are great. I tried to get ahold of Wilmar MN shop but have had trouble getting a call back...if anyone knows a Mooney shop in Midwest I can ask more questions to that would be great. I am very mechanical ( I work on boats) so I don't mind turning wrenches.
 
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