Buying certificated vs. experimental

TexasAviation said:
I'm still building up my airplane savings fund with the goal of buying something in the $40k-$60k range in the next 18-24 months. It would go a lot faster if I could bring myself to stop flying so dang much in the club rental! :)

I've been leaning towards certificated for lots of reasons. I'm a busy guy and don't have the time/interest to build my own experimental. I like the safety factor of certificated planes (although I bet the experimental crowd would say this is arguable). And, since I've got three kids, I'm leaning toward something like a Cherokee Six that could hold the whole family.

But some things about certificated planes drive me CRAZY. Example: The power trim switch on the club Archer's yoke is broken and won't move. The replacement part, something that would probably cost a couple of bucks max at Radio Shack, lists for a whopping $1,000. It's insane.

Experimentals sure start to look appealing at times like that.

Just curious what thoughts people have on this.
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If you want a family sized plane for <$60k, you are pretty much stuck with certified. There are only a couple of experimentals that will take the load/have the volume and you're looking over $200k.

As for parts for certified, especially popular models, that's what salvage yards and owner produced parts are for.
 
TexasAviation said:
Nice! The 195 is on my list :) Such a gorgeous plane, I can't help but wanna fly one when I look at 'em.
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Then do it !

Ask Greg to check you out. He might even go with you to get it.
 
costs of keeping a twin and generally overblown, mostly by people who have never owned one

the all-in cost over 8 years with my travel air is lower than the fixed-gear cherokee 6 that preceded it, on a per-mile basis
 
James331 said:
What appears to be a outdoor AK plane, I'd really go over it.
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You bet you'd better! If it's sat out it can easily have spar, wing problems due to leaks. How much tail dragger time do you have? It's not an aircraft for a novice. Are you a hands on type able to do a good bit of maint? If not probably better to try something else. Be sure and have someone really familiar with 195 s do a thorough inspection before you buy it! if the price is under 70-80 grand it's very possible it will need expensive annuals. ( the well cared for 195s usually start at around seventy grand. ) I owned one for four years. The above is what I learned from ownership. Anything can be repaired if you have enough money and there is someone very familiar with a 195 to do it, not some bs artist. They can be very expensive if purchased incorrectly.
 
There's a couple of other 5 seat planes that will do. The mid-year 210, strangely enough there's a Beech Musketeer A23-24 super III with a fifth seat option but they are rare as hen's teeth. Technically, you can get a few of the Navions with the 3 across seating in the back, but it's a tight fit unless they are all small kids. and they will grow.

Starting with the K35 Bonanza, and going all the way through the later models, the 5th seat option was offered. You would need to find one already equipped as such, or hunt around the bone yards of the country for the following mods which can be installed on the orig type cert, and would only require a re-weigh of the weights and CG once installed. Here are the optional parts needed:

Optional seating per Beech Dwg. 95-534014, 95-534015, and 95-534016 17 lb. (+135)
(K35, M35).

Optional seating per Beech Dwg. 35-534401 (N35, P35)

Optional seating per Beech Dwg.:
(a) 35-534432 or 96-534051-5 or 35-001120 13 lb. (+155)
(Fifth seat, S35, V35, V35A, V35B (S/N D-9069 through D-9861,
F33A S/N CE-316 through CE-633)
(b) 96-534051-57 or 35-001120 13 lb. ea. (+155)
(Fifth and sixth seats, S35, V35, V35A, V35B S/N D-9069 through Stowed
D-9861, F33A S/N CE-316 through CE-633) Airplane Flight Manual Supplement,
P/N 35-590110-7 dated June 29, l964, or 35-390110-15 dated October 1975 or
later required (S35 only)
(c) 33-534033 18 lb. (+144)
(Fifth seat 35-C33, E33, E33C, F33, G33, F33A
(S/N CE-290 through CE-315), F33C, 35-C33A, E33A only)
Airplane Flight Manual Supplement P/N 33-534033-9 dated March 9,
1965, or September 1977 or later, required for F33.
(d) 96-534051 14 lb. (+155)
Fifth seat V35B S/N D-9862 and on
F33A S/N CE-634 and on
Fifth and sixth seats V35B S/N D-9862 and on
F33A S/N CE-634 and on
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The K35-P35 options, being older they will be more in your price range. This will get all five of you in the air at once. Added bonus, you'll buy your last plane first, and this will likely last you for decades if you take care of it. Learning the Bo now isn't that tough and once you get comfy in it you can go pretty much anywhere you want for service. Bonanza are worked on around the world, and the perf isn't to shabby at all.

Proving that once again, the answer to all 'what plane?' questions is always -- Bonanza. :yes:
 
JHW said:
costs of keeping a twin and generally overblown, mostly by people who have never owned one

the all-in cost over 8 years with my travel air is lower than the fixed-gear cherokee 6 that preceded it, on a per-mile basis
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Have to agree ,my Travelair was a pleasure to fly ,and wasn't much more to maintain once I got it into shape,can get the same fuel burn ,just pull back the throttles when flying local.
 
bnt83 said:
What experimental comes near the size of a Cherokee 6 anywhere near $50k?

The difference between a certified and experimental? Paperwork.
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This.....:yes:

Continue to save your money and buy a nice Cherokee for twice that. Any of these, either certified or experimental, are expensive to own and both can be just as safe IMHO.

Experimentals are actually "more" expensive to purchase....:yesnod:

I'd own either....but I'd also want a build type expert (EAA tech rep) to inspect the experimental before making the purchase....but, there are no affordable 6 place experimentals....so a Six is not a bad family hauler.:no:
 
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unsafervguy said:
finding an A&P to work on an experimental is not that hard, get to know the people who fly experimental aircraft at your airport. A large number of experimental owners are A&P's. I have no problems with signing off owner assisted condition inspections.

I agree, that the op will not find a 4 place experimental in that price range. but he will also not find a certified 4 place with the kind of avionics that you can find for the money in an experimental. show me an aircraft that will compete with a RV-10 with full glass, auto pilot, and every thing else that they have. including very low airframe hours for the price of a RV-10. (flame suit on) the RV-10 beats the he.. out of a cirrus any day in my book. from what i have seen the average price of a cirrus is well north of 250k. a well equipped low time rv-10 will be below that. If you just want to gas and go, and right checks for maintenance, then you will really not save that much with an experimental. If you the type of person that will/can turn a wrench and participate in the maintenance of your aircraft you can save a lot of money on an experimental.

my advice to people that are looking for their first aircraft, really define there mission. yes a six seat, speed ship sounds great, but how often are you going to be filling those six seats and using the full capabilities of the the aircraft. my 2 seat aircraft flies about 80% of the time solo and my 4 seat about 90% one or two people. insurance cost is a lot higher for a six seat aircraft than a 4 seat aircraft. the fuel burn between a 160/180 HP is a whole lot less than a 250/300 HP engine.
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Holy crap! If I say something like this the Who's from Whoville come out with their pitch forks and torches! I'll take my garage built RV-10 over a Cirrus anyday. Cirrus is a great plane, but my RV-10 is much cheaper to own and operate.

You are 110% right BTW. :yes:

:D
 
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Geico266 said:
Holy crap! If I say something like this the Who's from Whoville come out with their pitch forks and torches! I'll take my garage built RV-10 over a Cirrus anyday. Cirrus is a great plane, but my RV-10 is much cheaper to own and operate.

You are 110% right BTW. :yes:

:D
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RVs are just great. I had a ride a few years back in a tandem RV4 and I wanted one so bad I almost wept. The RVs are good looking, great performers.
 
I must say I came down to the decision of an SR-20 with a loan vs full cash on my RV-6A.

Haven't regretted it yet, and probably never will.
 
Geico266 said:
I'll take my garage built RV-10 over a Cirrus anyday. Cirrus is a great plane, but my RV-10 is much cheaper to own and operate.
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I agree, hence why I started building an RV-10 in my garage...
 
So what's the all-in cost of your own RV-10 with the quick build kit(if avail) and the time involved? Just for the basic airframe, engine, prop and simple electronics pkg.
 
RV-10 build cost? guess.....$80-$120K for materials.
 
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Does anyone have experience with the RV-4? It looks like a nice little personal airplane where another person could go in a pinch. Too small?
 
Anthony said:
Does anyone have experience with the RV-4? It looks like a nice little personal airplane where another person could go in a pinch. Too small?
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Great little planes, I would think it would get cramped from anyone over 6 ft. and/or 240 pounds.
Easy to move around, and cheap to fly. 150-160 kts.
Center line flying is the best.
 
docmirror said:
So what's the all-in cost of your own RV-10 with the quick build kit(if avail) and the time involved? Just for the basic airframe, engine, prop and simple electronics pkg.
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Checkout_my_Six said:
RV-10 build cost? guess.....$80-$120K for materials.
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There's a lot of factors to decide on what you want that greatly affect the cost of the plane. Steam gauges vs glass, 2 blade vs 3 blade, bare-bones interior vs something more along the lines of an SR22. On the RV-10 I attached the Vans estimate screen shot.

Time is something else that depends on what you do. So the common rule seems to be about 2000 hours. If you go with quickbuild on the RV-10 then that's the fuselage and wings and that apparently shaves 1000 off... but then add in the time to put any modifications you want and it goes back up.

I'm still on the first part (Vertical Stabilizer) but I am really enjoying the build so far, not rushed to get it done and plan on really making this a nice plane... full glass, autopilot, GTN 650, Air Conditioning, leather, ect... I'm still working on my cost buildup, but right now it's at $150K and raising... so probably around $200K when all is said and done.
 

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RV-10 is about double to triple the OPs budget.

Nice planes, but let's not compare to a certificated old Cessna. Really.
 
docmirror said:
RV-10 is about double to triple the OPs budget.

Nice planes, but let's not compare to a certificated old Cessna. Really.
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I mentioned that exact same thing earlier in the post somewhere. You can probably find a 20 year old RV but it's not going to hold 4 people.
 
Anthony said:
Does anyone have experience with the RV-4? It looks like a nice little personal airplane where another person could go in a pinch. Too small?
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i guess I do since I built the one sitting in my hangar now. they are a great airplane. It has been said that you do not get in a RV-4 you put it on. Im 6-1 250 and its tight but its a better fit than a 150. good seats are the key. the back seat is fine for a smaller person, but it is a bit cramped. I have ridden in the back seat and don't think I would like to be back there for a couple of hours. there is very little cargo space. only enough for a couple of small soft sided bag. the limiting factor is CG. a 320 wood prop version has a aft CG problem. Mine is a 360 with a hartzell constant speed so I have no loading issues with it. its makes great cross county airplane as i get about 155 kts at 70% down low.
 
After watching and helping out a little on a friend's RV-8, I'm convinced it takes a special kind of person to build an aircraft. It is a LOT of work.

You have to be a 'finish what I started' kind of person in the extreme degree.

A favorite saying among builders is "90% done and 90% to go" It's the last 10% of the build that makes or breaks it and they are grueling hours to work off on little things like trim and upholstery and leather and avionics while all during that last 10% time you're looking at basically an airworthy aircraft that you're dying to fly.
 
txflyer said:
The problem that you already half hit on and stated by wanting a Cherokee six OP is experimentals by nature are small. They're little airplanes.

Matter of fact, I can't think of many experimental family haulers except for an RV-10 which is still kinda small, or maybe a Comp-air 7 or 8.

Maybe a Lancair EVO but it's a million bucks. :dunno:
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He was gonna say he could just build an Epic LT but they don't do that any more. And it's a couple million outside his price range. :D

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