Buying an SR22 to train in

noob

noob

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My wife and I both want to start PPL training next spring.

With 60 hour average VFR training x 2 = 120 hour x $150/hr = $18000. And that's in a 172. After that we would need to do proficiency training on a SR22 anyway which is what... 10? hour rental x 2 x $300 = $6000.

So we're starting off the bat with just $24'000 in airplane rental. That's close to the down-payment on a used SR22. My gut says to just to buy the damn airplane first and then start training in it.

Would that actually be possible though? Specific concerns:
  • Can I get an airplane loan without an actual PPL or hours?
  • Would I be able to insure it? I think that initially the CFI's insurance take care of it in the air. But what about coverage while the plane is on the ground - fire/earthquake/theft etc. or things that the CFI is not responsible for? Bird strike?
  • Probably something I don't know yet that I should be concerned about?

PS: I know that a SR22 isn't a typical trainer. But where we live virtually everywhere we'd fly would be mountains, water or buildings. So we would never fly anything that's not either BRS or Twin for real - and I'm not crazy enough to learn in a twin. I realize that training on an SR22 will probably take longer, and those skills won't translate to a lighter aircraft with steam instruments. But I'd far rather pay a CFI for an extra 100 hours and get more training on an aircraft that I'm actually going to fly, than spending that money on rental for something that I won't.
 
Ambitious but it has been done before.

You'll get about 20 responses how this is crazy and you gonna die. Don't mind them. They mean well.
 
weilke said:
You'll get about 20 responses how this is crazy and you gonna die. Don't mind them. They mean well.
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I searched the forum and saw some of those. Hence my big "PS" :).

I assume a good CFI won't put me into unnecessary risk. Next question I'll have for another day would be how to judge a good CFI.
 
noob said:
  • Can I get an airplane loan without an actual PPL or hours?
  • Would I be able to insure it? I think that initially the CFI's insurance take care of it in the air. But what about coverage while the plane is on the ground - fire/earthquake/theft etc. or things that the CFI is not responsible for? Bird strike?
  • Probably something I don't know yet that I should be concerned about?
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Ad 1
Bank doesn't care. Do you have income, do you have assets and do you have credit is all they care. You could be buying the plane to have a contract pilot fly your mistress around and it would be fine with the bank.

Ad 2
Yes, but for a lot of money. You will need a broker who shops beyond the mainstream insurers. Expect eye-watering quotes for a zero time primary student in a SR22.

Ad 3
Find a CSIP instructor willing to train you in your plane. If you buy new, Cirrus will sell you an indentured slave for that purpose for 3 months. You just have to house and feed him ;-)
 
Oh, and I don't think you will save money. Between the insurance hit, the longer training in a demanding aircraft, the higher fuel cost and the need to find a cirrus primary instructor it's probably one of the more expensive ways to go about this.
 
I'm guessing insurance with be around $6-8k, and then after PP $4-5k...you won't see less than $3k until you have 200 hrs and your instrument rating. You'll have to add the CFI onto the policy, and make sure the CFI isn't just logging hours, you want to make sure he or she will be around for awhile.
 
I think it is a good plan, but do either of you have any experience flying? If not, I'd take at least a few lessons in a rental just to get a feeling for how much you really like it and see what your aptitude is. For most people, an airplane is a huge investment, and even the ridiculously wealthy don't like to buy high and sell low, which is what would happen if you decide to sell before completing your ppl.
 
All it takes is money right?

An SR22 is a lot of airplane for the beginning pilot but it is doable.

Depending on the year and/or the model you purchase, plan for insurance premiums to be through the roof for a 0 hour pilot.
 
weilke said:
Oh, and I don't think you will save money. Between the insurance hit, the longer training in a demanding aircraft, the higher fuel cost and the need to find a cirrus primary instructor it's probably one of the more expensive ways to go about this.
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Actually the CSIP tip REALLY helps, I can do the napkin math and it looks like CSIP on own aircraft x 2 is $30k cheaper than in their aircraft according to their site. But I have to probably add $10k of fuel for my own. Still $20k pays for a lot of insurance.
 
JOhnH said:
I think it is a good plan, but do either of you have any experience flying? If not, I'd take at least a few lessons in a rental just to get a feeling for how much you really like it and see what your aptitude is. For most people, an airplane is a huge investment, and even the ridiculously wealthy don't like to buy high and sell low, which is what would happen if you decide to sell before completing your ppl.
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Just as a passenger. Yes, we're both planning to set up at least some of those discovery flights that let you fly etc. if not a few hours of initial training. The ideal would be that we do all the planning, intro, medical, ground school etc. in the fall, then, if it all works out and we're still interested, buy the airplane in winter, then start more formal training in the spring.
 
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teejayevans said:
I'm guessing insurance with be around $6-8k, and then after PP $4-5k...you won't see less than $3k until you have 200 hrs and your instrument rating. You'll have to add the CFI onto the policy, and make sure the CFI isn't just logging hours, you want to make sure he or she will be around for awhile.
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$8k per year? That's a lot less than I expected frankly.

Who would sell such a policy?
 
JOhnH said:
I think it is a good plan, but do either of you have any experience flying? If not, I'd take at least a few lessons in a rental just to get a feeling for how much you really like it and see what your aptitude is.
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I have flown some rentals that can scar a prospective student for life. There are a couple of schools around that have SR20s or DA40s for primary training, I would seek out such a school for a discovery flight. They may also have an instructor able to do primary in a SR22.
 
weilke said:
I have flown some rentals that can scar a prospective student for life. There are a couple of schools around that have SR20s or DA40s for primary training, I would seek out such a school for a discovery flight. They may also have an instructor able to do primary in a SR22.
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Agreed. I was going to suggest a school with Diamonds. Of course, SR22s would be better, but I don't know of many of many of them.
 
It can be done. I was training a 15 year old kid in a brand new SR22 before I left and got a new job. He's 16 now and soloed on his birthday. Just stay ahead of the plane and you'll be fine.
 
My CSIP charged $45 / hr in my plane.
Insurance through hardy for 2 non IR pilots both with between 200-400 hours is $3000 / yr

Fuel is more expensive for training but for XC flights it evens out and depending on distance can actually be cheaper due to the speed.
It is a very easy plane to fly, stalls are pretty benign.

The only challenge really is just the speed. Things come at you faster and you need to plan on slowing down ahead of time.
It is the easiest plane to land that I have flown.

I personally I am glad I started in a 172 just to get the foundation. If I could do it over, I would still do it that way.
Early on when you have little "Oh crap" moments, having less time to figure it out would have added additional stress to some of those little situations.
 
SR-20 enough? Let's say you end up with 18 months worth of flight training, that's a fair amount. The cost over that period would be much less in a Piper Warrior, likely even if you decided to flip it when done. There are two of you after all. Then I'd think you would reduce the frustration level a bunch too. It would allow one to put 99% of the effort into learning to fly, and not so much learning systems.

Just an idea, more than a few ways to skin this possum.
 
If you can afford it, I don't see why not. But as others have said, it likely will not save you money. I know having my own plane for training made me a lot better prepared for XCs once I got my ticket, because I was able to fly it plenty during training. (I knew every square inch of sky around my 25nm training area by the time I finished.)

As to the "speed" issue, just don't fly fast until you're ready. During my training, I stayed around 100kts most of the time. I didn't start flying faster until I felt ready. Just because you have the speed it doesn't mean you have to use it.
 
noob said:
$8k per year? That's a lot less than I expected frankly.

Who would sell such a policy?
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Aviation insurance, and especially GA insurance is a tricky industry. There's one direct insurer (Avemco), and then a series of specialists. It helps to have a broker who is familiar with what you are trying to do, and probably in the case with the SR22. I'd ask COPA for a recommendation and talk to a couple before you ask for quotes. It's less of a cut and dry approach than Auto insurance.

Having said that, i'll echo a bit of what has been said above. You can learn in anything, but it might take a bit more time than learning in a simpler machine.

The other challenge you may come across is the number of hours required before you can fly solo. I knew a pilot who was constantly buying planes above this limit, so he was almost continually flying with an instructor. Don't know whether that would be an issue with an SR22, but another question to ask.
 
Looking at it slightly differently:

If your end goal is to own an SR-22, then starting with one will eventually provide you the justification that you saved money by starting that way. It won't be true, but you'll be able to tell yourself and others that is.

However, with 0 PIC, I doubt you know what you want to own.

I own 1 plane myself, and am a partner in 2 more. NONE of them are what I thought I would own when I was reading Trade-a-Plane and Controller.com with 350 fewer hours in my logbook.
 
While I think you could learn in an SR22, I would strongly consider just renting a 172 or Cherokee 180 to get your PPL and then get the SR22. You are going to make a whole bunch of crappy landings while learning and it would be better to have that abuse dished out on a rental than your own SR22. I think the 172/180 route would be cheaper too.

I had 175 hours when I bought my Dakota and I had flown about a dozen different types of aircraft to help sort out what kind I wanted to buy.
 
At least get the ball rolling with a rental or something simpler that you've bought. With the kind of $ you're really looking at you could easily buy a good Cherokee 180 or 172. You and the wife could each get the ppl after a bunch of less than stellar landings.

You'll have learned so much about flying and what you want in that next plane. Flip the plane without losing much, if any, money, especially if bought right.

So my recommendation is to buy a plane but not the cirrus.

I have 3 children and was dead set on buying a Cherokee 6 early on in my ppl training. Following the advice of members of a couple different forums I bought a Cherokee 180 and learned to fly. Had a lot of fun in the plane. Learned about various avionics, autopilots, etc... Waited around and found exactly what I wanted in a fixed gear Saratoga. Sold the 180 without losing much $ at all. Great investment for what all I learned in that plane.
 
Owning a plane that you can't fly without an instructor is a bad idea. Too much temptation to fly it on your own. Just stick with a basic trainer. If you cant afford to pay cash or borrow for it on your house, you probably can't afford it anyway. 172s are really good airplanes to learn in! Really good to fly period. Do it!
 
A Cirrus is hard to learn how to fly ?????? Really why ? It has no prop control, no retractable gear and no cowl flaps. What's so hard about that ?

I am a CSIP and have been a CFI since 1990. For the life of me I don't understand why people think it will take you any longer to learn in that airplane. The Cirrus program is the most modern and well thought program I have seen in GA. Their program interjects ADM type items from day one. If you've been around GA for any time or have studied GA accident causality then you know it's the ADM aspect that is almost always the first link in the chain of events leading up to the incident/accident.

Cirrus of course was NOT always like this. It was only through a good bit of self examination and determination that brought this about. If your goal is to ultimately own and operate an SR-22 than by all means get one. I'd rather you learn the feel of a stall in the Cirrus than in a 172 and later transition to the Cirrus.

The people that advise otherwise have VERY likely NEVER flown a Cirrus.
 
The only downside is if you decide you don't like it (a high percentage of students don't finish), your costs for this are going to be much higher than renting. If costs aren't a concern, go for it. Being committed financially can provide extra focus :)
 
Cluemeister said:
The only downside is if you decide you don't like it (a high percentage of students don't finish), your costs for this are going to be much higher than renting
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That's a good point.
 
Do it! As long as you know the SR22 is your end game plane (or close to it). Flipping planes is expensive! I loved my SR20, I still have a photo of me, the SR 20, and the kitty hawk memorial hanging on my wall right next to my bed. It's to bad we out grew the SR family, more butts than seats!
 
I find it amusing and quite silly how people want to learn how to fly in the easiest plane possible, you don't recommend a university based on how easy the classes are do you? You should pick a plane that will teach you and build the best foundation possible, this normally would result in most folks getting their PPLs in a small tailwheel, like a 7AC or J3, or better yet in a glider and then doing their power add on in a taildragger.


Anyway, that's not really the case for your situation.


It's a cirrus, just another flavor of a single engine, non complex trike trainer, train in a 172,PA28,SR22,AA5, should be all the same as far as you're concerned with any CFI worth his salt, it ain't like you're talking a Mig 21.
 
I'm a 22 owner, not an expert, but here are my thoughts:

1. If you know you will follow through and if you know you will want to own a 22 in the future I'd consider it.

2. Train with a CSIP. They are trained to teach in the Cirrus. I flew with a DPE non CSIP and he didn't teach me critical stuff.

3. Join COPA. They have insurance partners. Our insurance is $2,700 on our 22 but all three of us are instrument rated.

4. Steele aviation is a brokerage partner.

5. The Cirrus is easy to fly. However, speed management is critical. It's all procedures.

6. Attend a CPPP as soon as possible.

Good luck
 
Art VanDelay said:
A Cirrus is hard to learn how to fly ?????? Really why ? It has no prop control, no retractable gear and no cowl flaps. What's so hard about that ?
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I don't think anyone here claimed that it is 'hard' to fly. But it does stall 16kts faster than a Warrior and if you prang it on nose first you are going to buy a $45,000 engine, a $13,000 prop and a new nosewheel for god knows how much.
Of course, if a instructor trains every student to the same high standard, there is not going to be a difference in time needed between a Warrior and a SR22, but the reality is that most instructors let students solo once they are 'safe enough' and not once they maintain speeds in the pattern to a +/- 3kt tolerance.
 
Ive heard of worse, I once new a guy that bought an almost new turbo Mooney to learn to fly in. All it takes is money.
 
asgcpa said:
... The Cirrus is easy to fly. However, speed management is critical. It's all procedures.
...
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And that's different from any other plane how? I've never heard of a plane where speed management wasn't critical, they all seem to stall below stall speed, and don't like their flaps dumped above VFE, etc.




weilke said:
... But it does stall 16kts faster than a Warrior and if you prang it on nose first you are going to buy ...
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16kts isn't really enough of a difference to deture primary training, the 7AC I first learned how to fly in actually stalled 12 below what a warrior will stall at, and many PA28 pilots found the 7AC "challenging" to fly, go figure ;)

As far as hitting the nose wheel first, to me that's the same as accidentally landing inverted, W..T..F..

I've never, ever, even had a pre solo student do that, that's a sign of some real pizz poor initial training and should not be a factor for ANY student who has a CFI worth anything.
 
Since no one has said it yet...

...this is crazy! You're gonna die!
 
jmp470 said:
Do it! As long as you know the SR22 is your end game plane (or close to it).
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I wouldn't say the SR22 is necessarily my end game, but it is long enough term (first 1000 hours) for training and to build hours. End game is probably closer to a pressurized TurboProp or maybe something like a VisionJet, but that would be impractical and likely dangerous to train in. Either way - it's not something I can say at this point.

I want to build hours on something cheaper and safer, and I think the SR22 is the minimum we can live with for the next 500 hours p/p, and actually be able to get enough use out of to build hours. Anywhere I would want to fly to crosses mountains or water.


More detail on my cost rational if I now take CSIP training into account. If I look at some published prices, based on 70 hours of training, I see:

a) Rented 172: $17'000 -> CFI training in a rented 172 ($13700), followed by SR22 proficiency training ($3300).
b) Owned SR22: $20'000 -> CSIP SR22 training "in your airplane" ($12500). Add 70 operating hours ($7500).
c) Rented SR22: $37'000 -> CSIP SR22 training in "their SR22 Turbo with Perspective".

Then let's say I then buy e.g. a G3 Turbo for $300k, with a down-payment of $45k. Then comparing all costs:

a) $79'000 ($17k x 2 + $45k)
b) $85'000 ($20k x 2 + $45k
c) $119'000 ($37k x 2 + $45k)

(a) and (b) are close enough to each other that it doesn't matter, and it would mean 70 hours of training in an Cirrus instead of 70 hours in a 172. Otherwise to get 70 hours in a Cirrus without buying one would take (c).
 
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Oh.. I'm such a dumb bunny. I missed the pointlessness of this thread.

noob needs an SR22T GTS. It's only $850k and is meets his undefined mission undefinedly (maybe not a word)

Go spend that money! And vote for _______ while you're at it.
 
rolivi said:
Oh.. I'm such a dumb bunny. I missed the pointlessness of this thread.

noob needs an SR22T GTS. It's only $850k and is meets his undefined mission undefinedly (maybe not a word)

Go spend that money! And vote for _______ while you're at it.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with you ?
 
rolivi said:
Oh.. I'm such a dumb bunny. I missed the pointlessness of this thread.

noob needs an SR22T GTS. It's only $850k and is meets his undefined mission undefinedly (maybe not a word)

Go spend that money! And vote for _______ while you're at it.
Click to expand...

You were kind'a supportive earlier, why this attack now? And I didn't say anything about buying a new SR22. And the mission is training and building hours with 2 to 4 people on board in a way that's practical for where I live.


weilke said:
What is wrong with you ?
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Thanks.
 
Time to get off the pot and move on. Have we researched a ground school program or looking into some study material to pass the private written? Once the test is taken I believe it's good for two years, so maybe you can start toward that goal?

I like to keep an attainable goal within grasp, then build towards the next milestone.
 
Why such an expensive plane? I essentially did the same thing with a 150 for a hell of a lot less. Sold it for more than I paid.....
 
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