Buying an airplane...

[GauzeGuy]

Well, after looking into several options I found one that might work out for me.

A couple issues though, first it's about 800 miles away. I'd feel a lot better if I could look at it with my own eyes. Secondly, it's out of annual by several months. Not the end of the world but that would have to be addressed.

I asked the seller about what he needs for a deposit. He replied that if I was to get the annual done, that would be adequate to secure it for a couple weeks.

I'm not too crazy about the idea of funding an annual on an aircraft I have no interest in, much less even seen. Going though the threads here, I understand it is very common to use an escrow service to keep everyone honest. I'll definitely insist on that.

Otherwise, are there any good resources out there I can use to assist in the buying process? This has been an education experience, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel, or worse yet, miss something...

 

[Jimmy cooper]

The seller has it backwards. HE annuals it not you. Why would he think you'd be dumb enough to do that? I'd move on. Why is it out of annual? What type is it? Too many variables! It's a buyers market for sure. Lots of nice aircraft for sale at decent prices, in good condition.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Well, after looking into several options I found one that might work out for me.

A couple issues though, first it's about 800 miles away. I'd feel a lot better if I could look at it with my own eyes. Secondly, it's out of annual by several months. Not the end of the world but that would have to be addressed.

I asked the seller about what he needs for a deposit. He replied that if I was to get the annual done, that would be adequate to secure it for a couple weeks.

I'm not too crazy about the idea of funding an annual on an aircraft I have no interest in, much less even seen. Going though the threads here, I understand it is very common to use an escrow service to keep everyone honest. I'll definitely insist on that.

Otherwise, are there any good resources out there I can use to assist in the buying process? This has been an education experience, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel, or worse yet, miss something...

Can you contact anyone in the area of where the aircraft is located? Someone not connected to the airplane who can take a look at it, look through the logs and see if it is a basket case or something worth pursuing?

As far as you paying for the annual, nothing wrong with that, in fact I recommend doing a full annual as the prebuy....just make sure the person doing the annual isn't the one who has been doing it for the seller. You want an independent set of eyes.

Biggest concern is that it had been out of annual for 'several months' as you said. That could be a non-issue, of a sign that the airplane is a pile of junk. That is why it helps to have someone at least take a look in person and give you an opinion before you commit to the annual.

 

[frfly172]

I wouldn't pay for an annual that's overdue as a deposit. You can use a newsgroup service ,well worth the money. If it's out of annual the buyer probably doesn't have a lot of buyers lining up. If you are serious ,it may be worth the trip to see the plane. I would also set up a mechanic ,not the owners to do prebuy ,annual.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The seller has it backwards. HE annuals it not you. Why would he think you'd be dumb enough to do that? I'd move on. Why is it out of annual? What type is it? Too many variables!

Uh no.....if you are buying an airplane who's annual are you going to trust? The 'fresh' annual that was done by the guy who is trying to get rid of the airplane (and likely deferred anything he could to make it legal), or the guy YOU hired to give you an assessment so that you know what you are getting?

I don't accept 'fresh annuals' unless I know the shop that did it.

Don't forget that we are talking about the Annual INSPECTION. Not the correction of discrepancies that may be necessary to return the aircraft to an airworthy status. That should either be done by the seller or negotiated in the purchase agreement.

 

[GauzeGuy]

Thanks.

That is the next thing, he gave me the phone number of his A&P. I've read that is not a good idea, so I'm going to look for others. It is based out of a fairly small airport, so I'm concerned options may be limited...

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thanks.

That is the next thing, he gave me the phone number of his A&P. I've read that is not a good idea, so I'm going to look for others. It is based out of a fairly small airport, so I'm concerned options may be limited...

If you think the airplane has potential, you might try posting the location and type....you may be able to find a POAer who I'd nearby who could take a look for you.

 

[AggieMike88]

AOPA Pilot Center has some basic but good information.

Mike Busch's Savvy MX site offers to manage pre-buys for you and will reimburse much of the inspection cost if the aircraft is placed with their management solution. This link explains what they do. It's talking about Cirruses, but the they will do it for any make/model.


Rather than paying for the full blown annual for the seller to even take your phone call, write the contract up to

• put a reasonable percentage of the agreed purchase price into the escrow
• permit a per-purchase inspection (that is not an annual) to happen by your mechanic of choice and at your expense. Your mechanic will compile a list of discrepancies from major to minor to very small. Important AD's will be researched and details of how (and if) they are complied with will be documented.
• This list of discrepencies will be presented to the seller. You two will discuss what affects the sale and what doesn't. You two will discuss who pays for what and how it's handled.
• If the seller doesn't want to play nice once the pre-buy list is presented to him, then you say thank you, and walk away.
• If the seller does play nice, document how he's going to play, update the purchase agreement, put all the money into the escrow account, execute the full agreement, and THEN do the full annual.

 

[AggieMike88]

From the web page I linked:

Key prebuy takeaways

1. Have the prebuy examination preformed by a mechanic who is an expert in the particular make and model, has no prior relationship with the aircraft or the seller, and is located within a reasonable distance (an hour’s flying time or less).

2. Don’t approach the prebuy as an annual inspection. Focus strictly on determining whether the aircraft has any big “show stopper” discrepancies that would be costly to fix. Start with the most expensive stuff (typically the engine) and work toward the less expensive stuff. Don’t waste time and money looking for cheap-to-fix discrepancies or non-airworthiness items that won’t affect the purchase decision nor have major impact on the price negotiations.

3. If any costly-to-repair items are found during the prebuy, stop and discuss them with the seller. The seller may agree to pay to have them corrected, or may choose to walk away from the deal. If the seller agrees to pay, the prebuy can resume.

4. If you decide to buy the aircraft and assume ownership, it often (but not always) makes economic sense to convert the prebuy into an annual inspection.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

It depends a great deal on what type of airplane it is! How old it is. How many hours on it? How long has it sat?!, Engine time, and on and on , song without end! Hard to give advise when nothing is forthcoming. The annual could be cheap........then again could be lotsa money! A "prebuy inspection" to me, is a waste of time especially by HIS mechanic!

 

[GauzeGuy]

If you think the airplane has potential, you might try posting the location and type....you may be able to find a POAer who I'd nearby who could take a look for you.

Sounds good.

It is a PA-28-160 at KORG.

 

[GauzeGuy]

It depends a great deal on what type of airplane it is! How old it is. How many hours on it? How long has it sat?!, Engine time, and on and on , song without end! Hard to give advise when nothing is forthcoming. The annual could be cheap........then again could be lotsa money! A "prebuy inspection" to me, is a waste of time especially by HIS mechanic!

I hadn't posted anything since I was just looking for general advise on the buying process.

That said, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to post some other details:

PA-28-160
3350 TT
1824 SMOH
Annual expired 5/31/2013
http://www.barnstormers.com/listing_images.php?id=783298

 

[Fearless Tower]

The annual could be cheap........then again could be lotsa money!

Again don't get the term confused. An annual inspection is going to be pretty much a set price for a given airframe regardless of how long it has been sitting.

Now, the cost to correct the discrepancies discovered by that inspection could be cheap or very expensive.....but the potential buyer has zero obligation to correct any of those discrepancies.

 

[docmirror]

I was checking that one out too. Looks like a real good deal if the plane checks out. The radios are kinda iffy, but hey - it's priced right.

I'd ask around for an A&P helper to go look at the big ticket stuff(as above mentioned) and if that checks out, then go down and put eyes on it yourself.

Look for corrosion, spar, engine making metal, and after that it's all pretty much fixable along the way. Good luck.

 

[Shawn]

If you are serious about the purchase...go take a commercial flight and lay eyes on the thing before moving forward and spending any money if you are feeling comfortable with the whole deal up to this point. You are talking a few hundred dollars for a many thousand of dollars investment. There are may experienced folk here that can and have done the whole thing sight unseen, but not recommended for a first time purchase.

I am on the west coast and found my first plane in Florida. First thing I did was negotiate over the phone on a price that we were both comfortable with so I knew I wasn't wasting my time. Then flew cross country to lay eyes on it before I sent a dime. Looked better than expected. Plunked down small deposit that was fully refundable in writing pending the inspection results. Found a non related A&P, and started a pre-buy and headed back home knowing that I would be out the inspection costs if I pulled out. All major components looked good then told A&P to go for full annual and rip it apart.

Came back with a few minor squaks that seller agreed to pay for, plus a few non airworthy items that I agreed to pay for...wired the money and flew back to FL to fly her home with a fresh annual. Didn't need an escrow account. Easy Peasy...but go look at it!

One thing I learned in the buying experience is that most pictures just don't do the 70's shag carpet justice!

 

[Jimmy cooper]

The engine seems to have very high time. If an overhaul is in the offing it's not a cheap airplane, it's an expensive one! How much has it flown in the past few years? This DOES make a difference! Hangared? Left outside? People who fly often usually keep things in good order both mechanically and in appearance. After getting a good screwing on a Cessna 195 years ago I became very picky. Be careful!

 

[GauzeGuy]

Be careful!

Agreed.

I'm aware it is a higher time engine. My thought is that there are many, many examples of engines going well past TBO. Additionally, if the engine did require an overhaul I'm likely going to get a mid-time engine and swap them out.

This plane is just one possibility. There's a similar aircraft that is very close to me, but since this one is $5000 less, I figured it's worth a look...

 

[Jimmy cooper]

You are "aware" of the high time engine. Thinking that many go past TBO is whistling in a graveyard. Most do not. You should also be aware that to rebuild it might be 4 -5 times five grand "savings" . Airplanes are like anything else, pay now or pay later. You usually get what you pay for unless emotion overcomes common sense as it did in my case. The price was right. After all, an airline captain wouldn't lie would he? Even my trusted AI believed him so didn't do a real careful " prebuy". The engine was shot. It had sat for 3 years in a hangar, seals dried out, radios were lousy, on and on. ( prop ran away in pattern) landed engine out. After that, I trusted no one. As I said, be careful.

 

[NoHeat]

Mike Busch's Savvy MX site offers to manage pre-buys for you

That's what I did, and I had an excellent experience.

Savvy has a team of former DOM's (directors of maintenance) of service centers who help you out. To start, one of them looks through the logs for you to see if there are any show stoppers. They can recommend that you walk away if it's bad. If you want to continue, they next pick an extremely reliable service center to do a pre-buy inspection, in two stages, according to a checklist that Savvy provides. First, everything in the engine compartment - if somethings really bad, you walk away before continuing (and paying) further for the pre-buy inspection. Then, inspect the rest of the plane. At that point, you'll get a big list of discrepancies. You present the list to the seller and negotiate the price down (in my case, I asked the seller to reduce the price according to all the discrepancies that were marked as airworthiness). Or again you decide to walk away. If you buy, then your plane is already at a good service center, and you pay them a little extra to finish the annual inspection (many of the annual inspection items were already done during the pre-buy).

In this way, you have many opportunities to walk away, you are receiving expert independent advice at every step, and you don't pay for all of an annual inspection until you've bought the plane. Doing this with Savvy managing the process worked very well for me, and gave me a lot more confidence. Somebody who has bought several planes before might not need it, of course.

 

[Fearless Tower]

This plane is just one possibility. There's a similar aircraft that is very close to me, but since this one is $5000 less, I figured it's worth a look...

When the airplane is 800 miles away and currently out of annual, you could easily eat up that $5000 on the travel, inspection, delivery and initial costs to get the airplane to your standards. And an overhaul or engine change is going to cost you much more than that.

Not saying to automatically reject it, but I would take a closer look at the one near you first before committing anything toward thus one.

 

[jspilot]

Never bought a plane and have no experience with the process so feel free to disregard everything from now on- but that being said, I've read a lot here about buying and I look at the web sites for buying planes and I must say that I always skip over ads for planes like the one you are considering. I skip them because, I'd never want to buy a plane, especially my first plane, with tremendous potential for many complications down the line. You are buying, essentially an almost timed out engine on a plane that is out of annual and has likely sat for a while. Seems like a recipe for heavy maintaince costs down the road to me, and as a first time plane owner I would not want to go down that road.

When the time comes for me to buy a plane, I'd be way more interessted in a low/mid time engine, that's in annual and has flown often. It just seems like a better investment and a safer one considering the amount of learning required to own a plane under the best of circumstances!

I'd also ask how long the plane's been up for sale because, just like a house, it is a good indication of the seller's motivations and level of desperation to sell.

I hope whatever you decide on works out.

 

[dukeblue219]

Agreed.

I'm aware it is a higher time engine. My thought is that there are many, many examples of engines going well past TBO. Additionally, if the engine did require an overhaul I'm likely going to get a mid-time engine and swap them out.

This plane is just one possibility. There's a similar aircraft that is very close to me, but since this one is $5000 less, I figured it's worth a look...

How's the engine on the closer plane? Overall are the planes in similar condition?

Have you talked price with both owners? I'm wondering if that plane is really "$5000 less" or if that's just the list price. You'll want to negotiate the price of both planes, and for all we know, that owner that's closer might take a lower offer anyway.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I must say that I always skip over ads for planes like the one you are considering. I skip them because, I'd never want to buy a plane, especially my first plane, with tremendous potential for many complications down the line.

For someone who has never bought an airplane, that is some pretty wise and excellent advice.

 

[marcoseddi]

I wouldnt buy it just for the horrible red interior! Plus the high times on engine you will end up spending 20k just to do a MOH

 

[AggieMike88]

Lots of due dilligence can be done before you travel or send the seller any contracts or arrange escrow.

Contact the local mechanic you will be using to maintain the aircraft. Tell him what it is you're looking at and he can use his software resources to pull a complete list of AD's and SB's that apply. Then he can review these with you and point out which are one time, which required replacing something, which were IRAN, and which are repetitive. Make sure to fully comprehend how the really difficult ones are to be complied with.

Then get a complete (and I mean COMPLETE) set of logbooks sent to you. Either scan's or photographs. Go through them with marking and making notes about how the current and past owners complied with the AD/SB list.

If all compares well and there are no omissions, then you can proceed with the rest of the process including on-site inspection.

If there are a small number of questions or omissions, then that's something to discuss with the seller.

If there are lots of problems, or there is a big important one (such as the PA28 near Boulder I PM'd you about), then you know it's best to walk away.

But this is important homework you can do in the comfort of your home without needing to travel long distances.

 

[DaleB]

I'm aware it is a higher time engine. My thought is that there are many, many examples of engines going well past TBO.

Yes, but those have been operated by pilots who know what they're doing and run the beast in a manner calculated to run it past TBO. A lot of pilots have no clue how to do that, and are lucky to see TBO. You can't make any assumptions about how the plane was flown. You can make sure your next engine goes 3,000 hours, but you can't expect this one to do so.

The problem I see with swapping out a run-out engine for a mid-time engine is that you don't know how your "new" mid-time engine was run, either. You might get a thousand hours out of it, you might get a hundred, and it certainly won't have any guarantees. In the end, there's no free lunch. You can roll the dice and you might get lucky, or you might not. You can get a sense of how lucky you'll get if you have a very thorough prebuy done, including oil analysis and borescope inspection, but between all that and travel costs you'll eat up money you could be spending on a plane with radios newer than 1960.

 

[danhagan]

A couple issues though, first it's about 800 miles away. I'd feel a lot better if I could look at it with my own eyes. Secondly, it's out of annual by several months. Not the end of the world but that would have to be addressed.

I asked the seller about what he needs for a deposit. He replied that if I was to get the annual done, that would be adequate to secure it for a couple weeks.

I went through the same thing(s) you are now:

1. AC about 400 miles away. Went to look. AC was not assembled (looked like a potential annual). Mechanic "not available". Owner wanted me to purchase and said someone else was coming from out of town. This plane was supposed to be "flyable" before I booked the flight.

2. Same area a few months later. Asked no less than 15 times if any damage history. Could not get logs scanned. Traveled again. Owner hesitant with one of the log books, which states "off airport landing into 6 feet of brackish water".

The plane I purchased needed an annual. Owner did not want to budge at all on price *BUT* would repair ANYTHING that appeared to need correction. He agreed to have the annual performed at a shop that specializes in that type (long XC for him), but if it passed I would purchase. I agreed, the shop that performed the annual cranked a huge bill and the owner lived upto his word. This shop addressed EVERYTHING possible.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I wouldnt buy it just for the horrible red interior! Plus the high times on engine you will end up spending 20k just to do a MOH

Hey now, my girl had some horrific red interior when I bought her. Now it's brand new and tan B)


Gauze, I think you need to make sure you're getting everything you need in an airplane. You fly IFR a lot, are you comfortable with that setup? It is not wise to buy an airplane saying "I think I can live with that". Or "I think that part will last just a little bit longer". Because you won't, and it won't. Buy your second airplane first.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The plane I purchased needed an annual. Owner did not want to budge at all on price *BUT* would repair ANYTHING that appeared to need correction. He agreed to have the annual performed at a shop that specializes in that type (long XC for him), but if it passed I would purchase. I agreed, the shop that performed the annual cranked a huge bill and the owner lived upto his word. This shop addressed EVERYTHING possible.

Wish there were more sellers like that.

 

[danhagan]

Wish there were more sellers like that.

I had FULL amount of purchase in escrow account with AOPA and all paperwork ready for completion before the plane ever moved. He was able to get it to the shop about 2 days before annual expired.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I had FULL amount of purchase in escrow account with AOPA and all paperwork ready for completion before the plane ever moved. He was able to get it to the shop about 2 days before annual expired.

That's a good point; it takes a committed buyer and committed seller.

 

[GauzeGuy]

Gauze, I think you need to make sure you're getting everything you need in an airplane. You fly IFR a lot, are you comfortable with that setup? It is not wise to buy an airplane saying "I think I can live with that". Or "I think that part will last just a little bit longer". Because you won't, and it won't. Buy your second airplane first.

Thanks. I thought about that question.

About 80% of my flying is solo XC in VMC flying to lower altitudes. The ideal plane for me would be a 182RG, but the extra cost to get that capability isn't needed for the average flight that I do.

I fly IFR but not really IMC. I want the ability to shoot an approach if need be, but honestly my proficiency is more of what keeps me away from IMC, not so much the airplane. Give me a WAAS GPS, backup attitude indicators, backup vac systems and everything else, it wouldn't change my answer.

 

[GauzeGuy]

Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to follow the advise I've received and pass on this one. It very well may be that this isn't a bad deal, and the seller appears to be good to work with. It is not really a good choice for a first aircraft, and the costs of trying to work things out from afar will add up quickly.

I just gave the KAPA based bird a look today. Looks to be good as well, quite a few hours left on the engine and its still within annual. Nonetheless, the process is getting old, quickly. I remember how much I hate buying cars, this is ten times worse. It's starting to make less than ideal rental planes look good in comparison. ugh.

 

[Tom-D]

Contact the local mechanic you will be using to maintain the aircraft. Tell him what it is you're looking at and he can use his software resources to pull a complete list of AD's and SB's that apply.

How can they do that with out a complete list of every appliance/engine/airframe and their serial numbers and time in service?

I hope every one reading this is aware that every AD can be looked up at FAA.GOV, the CD of the aircraft can be bought from the FAA, which will tell them more about the aircraft than any mech that has never laid eyes on it.

When a prospective buyer can't do this simple home work they probably shouldn't buy any aircraft.

I wish I had a customer dumb enough to allow me to buy their aircraft for them, Because I'd buy my 401k program.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I don't know if this is in your budget or not, but this is a really good deal. I flew another TR182 from its original home in Deer Valley down to its new home at a private airpark (the owner is a student who hasn't flown in like a year and has two airplanes...) and it wasn't nearly as nice as this one appears, higher time, and original Cessna radios and he paid like $110k for it. THis one looks really nice, and the guy needs it gone because he bought a 210 and he wife said he can't have 2 airplanes

http://www.aircraftshowroom.aero/modules/list/aircraft_totaldeatils.php?id=97

 

[GauzeGuy]

I don't know if this is in your budget or not

Not even close. Oh well.

I'm flying a 182RG back to MN in a couple weeks, so I'll get my fix then. The school has it on special for only $129/hr this month; I was all over it.