Buying an airplane out of annual?

Coolidge

Coolidge

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Coolidge
Hey guys,

I have never owned an airplane and have a few questions.

I have an A&P/IA that specializes in Champs & similar aircraft who is willing to travel to look at potential aircraft for/with me.

I found a Taylorcraft about 250 miles away. Looks to be a decent basic airplane at first glance. It’s currently out of annual and has been for about 6-months. If my A&P and I go look at it, he does an annual, then deems it airworthy, is it immediately flyable without having to worry about a ferry permit?

I’ll be using him for all future annuals and maintenance and annuals after I get an airplane anyway, so I was just going to ask him to do a full annual instead of a pre-buy on any airplane that I consider seriously so we’ll all be on the same page. He is also a pilot, so he already offered to fly to the prospective aircraft, look it over, and fly it home for me. I just wasn’t sure how it worked if the prospective aircraft was currently out of annual.

Thanks for the info! I’m going to ask him for his opinion on the matter but wanted to hear yours as well.

Thanks!
 
Who would pay for that “annual”?
 
If you A&P also holds IA (inspection authority) privileges, then yes.
 
Coolidge said:
he does an annual, then deems it airworthy, is it immediately flyable...
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Yes. But I would have an insurance policy ready to go to make it "immediately flyable."

FYI: Your other option, if your IA prefers, is to get a ferry permit and fly it his shop for the annual.
 
Coolidge said:
Hey guys,

I have never owned an airplane and have a few questions.

I have an A&P/IA that specializes in Champs & similar aircraft who is willing to travel to look at potential aircraft for/with me.

I found a Taylorcraft about 250 miles away. Looks to be a decent basic airplane at first glance. It’s currently out of annual and has been for about 6-months. If my A&P and I go look at it, he does an annual, then deems it airworthy, is it immediately flyable without having to worry about a ferry permit?

I’ll be using him for all future annuals and maintenance and annuals after I get an airplane anyway, so I was just going to ask him to do a full annual instead of a pre-buy on any airplane that I consider seriously so we’ll all be on the same page. He is also a pilot, so he already offered to fly to the prospective aircraft, look it over, and fly it home for me. I just wasn’t sure how it worked if the prospective aircraft was currently out of annual.

Thanks for the info! I’m going to ask him for his opinion on the matter but wanted to hear yours as well.

Thanks!
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It would be the way I'd do it.

OBTW.... how big are you? 1', 5" and 145 pounds?.....? these are little aircraft.
 
Your prebuy should far exceed what’s needed for airworthy anyways.

I’m not seeing a issue other than you’ll have to test fly the plane after the prebuy vs before, unless you can get a ferry permit for that, and only being 6mo out....
 
Depending on the situation a pre-buy is oftentimes wider than an annual inspection. I bought a 182 that was out of annual and brought it current. You can negotiate risk for acceptance following in a test flight. Either lower purchase price for an as-is sale following a preliminary inspection, or have the current owner fund the annual in preparation for a test flight. Captain obvious here... The amount of risk depends on long it was sitting.
 
I would think the greatest challenge would be having the correct tools on hand to complete either PB or annual. From my seat, a ferry flight would be the best option and NordicDave said, negotiate the cost. What model Taylorcraft?
 
The seller should pay for the annual and preferably it should be done by an IA that you know and trust.
 
The local FSDO’s are changing there policy. They don’t issue ferry permits here anymore, you have to hire a DAR to come out inspect the airplane and issue a ferry permit. You could have your mechanic come out and look at it, he should get a good idea if it’s worth digging into and doing the annual or walking away. If it looks good do the in depth annual and fly it home.


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An annual is primarily an inspection. It identifies discrepancies. How those are dealt with will determine airworthiness. You need to negotiate who is responsible for costs. You should be willing to pay for the inspection and the seller should pay for repairs. At least that's what I'd shoot for. Some of your repairs may exceed minimums so you should be willing to pay the difference.
 
JCranford said:
Why? It’s “immediately flyable” after the annual is signed off. Insurance is not a requirement for airworthiness.
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Sure. But since getting insurance by a 1st time owner on his 1st aircraft can sometimes take time, maybe days which did not fit my definition of "immediate flyable." Unless that is, you fly aircraft without insurance?
 
I sold my Skyhawk 'out of annual', as-is and sight unseen, to a buyer more than 400 nm away, thus not in an airworthy condition. The expired annual was, in fact, the only thing making it not airworthy, and it had flown only a few dozen hours in the previous year. It was hangared, and the buyer had the annual done at the same shop I used (as that's where the hangar was located). They hired a local pilot to deliver it to Alabama from Ohio.
But the deal was that I'd pay for nothing; the sale was for the airplane in the hangar. And I think that's the only way I'll ever sell one, but I'm also not someone who believes they have the best 172 on the planet; they got a good deal, and would have even if the annual had cost a couple of grand more.
 
Wonderful information guys! My primary concerns is getting a solid pre-buy and/or annual to help me make sure I don’t make any unnecessary purchasing mistakes. I’m happy to get pre-buy and/or annual done to see what we’re working with, then walking away if the results are too unattractive.

Rushie; This is a very inexpensive aircraft so I would expect to pay for the pre-buy and annual myself, if my A&P decided it was worthy of further evaluation after first glance. Not sure why you put quotations around annual; care to elaborate?

Timbeck 2; he does also has his IA, I should have mentioned that.

Bell206; I’ve spoken to the independent agent who agent who wrote my renters policy. He indicated that he would be able to bind coverage once I make a deal. If I end up stuck in a hotel for an extra day waiting on a policy, so be it. It’s also a cash deal, so I guess I could go without if need be; I don’t see getting a policy being a big problem, per my current carrier. Also, my A&P travels with all the required tools in his own airplane and seems to prefer it that way.

Tom-D; I’m 5’10” and about 190-195lbs dressed for flying. I’ve been flying a Luscombe here lately and I fit fine in there. Hope this isn’t too much smaller!

tom28z; thanks for the handy info. I’d rather avoid the ferrying business anyway.
 
Coolidge said:
I’m 5’10” and about 190-195lbs dressed for flying. I’ve been flying a Luscombe here lately and I fit fine in there. Hope this isn’t too much smaller!
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I'm about 6' even and probably about 230 or so the time I flew a Tcart. You do end up with your head up above the bottom of the wing so you have to duck a little to see out to the sides. Climb rate was nothing to write home about with the instructor along - I think it had the original 65 horse engine, but it was a few years ago...
 
If you are paying for a good pre buy, realistically they are all out of annual.
How far out of annual can become a concern.
 
Coolidge said:
Wonderful information guys! My primary concerns is getting a solid pre-buy and/or annual to help me make sure I don’t make any unnecessary purchasing mistakes. I’m happy to get pre-buy and/or annual done to see what we’re working with, then walking away if the results are too unattractive.

Rushie; This is a very inexpensive aircraft so I would expect to pay for the pre-buy and annual myself, if my A&P decided it was worthy of further evaluation after first glance. Not sure why you put quotations around annual; care to elaborate?
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Sure! I put quotes around it because in my mind, “annual” includes a lot of repairs, tweaks, upgrades etc. that is not stuff you would want to pay for in case you decide you don’t want to buy it. In buying an aircraft I would expect to pay for a pre-buy, but not an annual unless the cost was negotiated out of the price, and it sounds like that’s already the case (the asking price is low enough the owner already credited for it being out of annual.)

If you are willing to pay for the annual even if you end up walking away, like Stewart pointed out, if something major is found that needs repair, you don’t want to pay for it if you don’t end up buying the plane, but the owner might want it to be done right then, while everything is opened up. Likewise if the owner comes around and says can you go ahead and add this or that bell or whistle. Make sure everybody understands those parameters before your A&P digs in.
 
Rush, an annual is basically an inspection only. Those things you mention are often done concurrently with an annual but they are not part of the annual

In this case one has to clearly define the scope of the work to be done. In this case, annual only, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Coolidge said:
I found a Taylorcraft about 250 miles away. Looks to be a decent basic airplane at first glance. It’s currently out of annual and has been for about 6-months. If my A&P and I go look at it, he does an annual, then deems it airworthy, is it immediately flyable without having to worry about a ferry permit?
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Does that happen to be the one in Oklahoma? I've done the whole bought a T-craft out of annual before. Paid as much for the annual as I did for the plane. YMMV...
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Rush, an annual is basically an inspection only. Those things you mention are often done concurrently with an annual but they are not part of the annual

In this case one has to clearly define the scope of the work to be done. In this case, annual only, nothing more, nothing less.
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Yes, the issue is that in my YNAB the stuff done concurrently got categorized as “annual”. :(
 
Coolidge said:
Tom-D; I’m 5’10” and about 190-195lbs dressed for flying. I’ve been flying a Luscombe here lately and I fit fine in there. Hope this isn’t too much smaller!.
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best to do a try a trial fit. :)
 
You guys are always a wealth of knowledge!

Rushie; thanks for the clarification! I’ll make sure buyer, seller, and mechanic are all on the same page prior to turning any wrenches!

RyanShort1; this one is actually in Mississippi. Price seems awfully low with new fabric 3 years ago, 950TT, 300SMOH (on a 65hp Conti, albeit). Planes listed at $12,500. I’d want a nice, long, thorough inspection to get me comfortable with it.
 
I am 6’3” and at the time about 230. I fit in our BC12-65 just fine.
 
Sure! I put quotes around it because in my mind, “annual” includes a lot of repairs, tweaks, upgrades etc.
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Your mind is misinformed. An annual is an inspection. Other than cleaning the aircraft and engine, it is all a matter of looking at things.
Now the annual may result in items that need to be repaired or maintained before the aircraft is airworthy, but that is a distinct matter. An A&P with an IA is required to do the inspection.
Any person authorized to perform the maintenance (an A&P with or without an IA, a repair station, or perhaps even the owner-pilot) can knock the items off the discrepancy list.

If you have an annual and correct all the airworthiness issues, you don't need a ferry permit. The plane is legal to fly normally.
If there are airworthiness issues, or if there is some reason why the annual can't be performed, then you will need an A&P to inspect things enough to state that the flight can be safely conducted to a place where the inspection/repairs can be made. This statement is sent to the FSDO and the FSDO will then issue a ferry permit for that purpose.
 
Made an offer on a plane that was out of annual... that is we'll take it as is where is... The offer I made was done after taking a very close look at the logs and talking to an A&P that is very familiar with the plane.. the owner didn't accept it.

Funny that plane is still for sale and is now three years out of annual... and still sitting in its hanger... at $200 per month
 
Bell206 said:
Sure. But since getting insurance by a 1st time owner on his 1st aircraft can sometimes take time, maybe days which did not fit my definition of "immediate flyable." Unless that is, you fly aircraft without insurance?
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:dunno: Many years ago, my first plane, I never did get insurance. I was young, a little reckless, and with almost no assets (other than my plane that I paid for with cash).
 
Airworthiness is ever in the in the eyes of the mechanic. When a new mechanic inspects an airframe he or she often sees things he or she doesn't like. My view has always been if an aircraft isn't in annual it isn't an aircraft, it's a collection of spar parts or scrap. If the owner can't take good enough care of an aircraft to keep it airworthy, why would I want any part of it?

But if sounds like the OP has pretty tight requirements, so he has to go buy this one. I do things a bit differently, I buy airplanes that fit my mission, not my mechanic's mission. Different strokes for different folks. I would advise the OP to at least go and sit in one of these things before he buys one.
 
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