Buying a "sitting" plane

[Tom-D]

Again, look at the complete deal. A camshaft alone should not break an otherwise good deal on a good airplane, especially when it's "damn near everything I was looking for." If you are going to wait for the perfect deal, you will die waiting for it.

"If I have to put a camshaft in it, will it still be a reasonable value?"

If you do end up doing a camshaft on a 500hr engine, there is a good chance that most of your parts still qualify to go back in on an "overhaul", so for a relatively small premium of required services to be able to call it an overhaul, you can come out with a $24,000 book value increase for under $10k along with the cam repair.

Yeah right..... that engine could be on its 5th overhaul. and every thing is at its max over/under size.

The list of new parts would look like the IPC for the engine.

Some day you'll have to live in the real world.

A cam replacement is never just a cam, if the cam is bad so are several lifters. If the cam sent any steel particles thru the oil systems you may be looking at a new crank, case set too.

 

[Tom-D]

That's why the borescope is critical. It is incontrovertible one way or the other. You say you're selling me a clean engine... I say I'll pay to prove that. You disagree and I walk, simple as that.

By see ya, have a nice trip home. In the mean time you miss a great aircraft, simply because you didn't know.

 

[Henning]

Yeah right..... that engine could be on its 5th overhaul. and every thing is at its max over/under size.

The list of new parts would look like the IPC for the engine.

Some day you'll have to live in the real world.

A cam replacement is never just a cam, if the cam is bad so are several lifters. If the cam sent any steel particles thru the oil systems you may be looking at a new crank, case set too.

You do a cam and tappets and repair the engine then. There are always options as long as the deal is right. If the deal is right the engine is irrelevant since it can be replaced with "0" SFRM" for a known figure and high market return on investment.

 

[Henning]

Engine overhaul is the highest market value money you spend on a plane because it has the least rate of depreciation.

 

[Tom-D]

That's why the borescope is critical. It is incontrovertible one way or the other. You say you're selling me a clean engine... I say I'll pay to prove that. You disagree and I walk, simple as that.

So,,,, you stick a borescope into each cylinder and they look great. Is that all there is to it?

Can you see the rusty gears in the accessory case? can you see the debris in the oil sump?

IMHO the internal condition of a Lycoming Engine is better seen by simply pulling the mag and inspecting the gears, if they are rusty the probability of the rest of the engine being the same is pretty high. If they are clean, so goes the engine.
They are the first to show any corrosion because they are high in the accessory case, very close to the engine breather and that is where all water must pass to get out the vent.
Bores scopping the cylinders is a very small part of inspecting the engine.

 

[Tom-D]

You do a cam and tappets and repair the engine then. There are always options as long as the deal is right. If the deal is right the engine is irrelevant since it can be replaced with "0" SFRM" for a known figure and high market return on investment.

Get real, the seller will never sell the aircraft discounted the price of the overhaul, and any one knows when the engine is all over the shop floor, that is what it will be.

Doing half the job is always twice the price in the long run.

 

[Henning]

We don't know that the price needs to be discounted to allow for an overhaul, we don't know what the plane is piced at or what it is. Are you are assuming that plane is priced high, or are you reading something I've missed? The only thing I know about this entire deal is that there is an O-320 with 500hrs that has sat for a couple of years on a plane that is everything else he is looking for. That's not enough information for me to determine what kind of deal is happening.

 

[petrolero]

So,,,, you stick a borescope into each cylinder and they look great. Is that all there is to it?

Can you see the rusty gears in the accessory case? can you see the debris in the oil sump?

IMHO the internal condition of a Lycoming Engine is better seen by simply pulling the mag and inspecting the gears, if they are rusty the probability of the rest of the engine being the same is pretty high. If they are clean, so goes the engine.
They are the first to show any corrosion because they are high in the accessory case, very close to the engine breather and that is where all water must pass to get out the vent.
Bores scopping the cylinders is a very small part of inspecting the engine.

No, not just the cylinders. As I stated above, my mechanic, during pre-buy and without removing any cylinders, was able to snake a borescope down into the case via the oil filler tube and inspect the cam shaft that way. He also inspected the cylinders and found evidence of corrosion.

If one wishes to inspect mags, fine, but that is not the same thing as the cam shaft - it is indirect evidence. If a buyer wants to present the seller with incontrovertible and direct evidence that the engine has problems (or not), the best way is to find direct evidence of the problems (or not) with a borescope or by removing cylinders if seller will permit that.

 

[Henning]

Well first we have to determine a problem exists. Is this plane in the desert Southwest? If so I wouldn't bother worrying about it.

 

[petrolero]

Well first we have to determine a problem exists. Is this plane in the desert Southwest? If so I wouldn't bother worrying about it.

Depends. I would if it had sat elsewhere. My example came from relatively dry Idaho but had sat in coastal Oregon under its previous owner.

 

[gitmo234]

I bought my airplane when it had been "basically" sitting for 3-4 years. By "basically" I mean no more than 15 hours a year at the max.

Continental O-300 in a 1956 C172.

Had the full inspection done of the entire plane, including about 200 pictures of everything, reviewed every logbook back to the first entry.

Engine was compression tested, bore scoped, oil was checked, propeller was balanced, etc.

Total cost for the inspection was < $500, identified the nose cap was cracked and replaced it for a few hundred. Propeller balancing was about $125.

Saved piece of mind and worth every dollar I spent. Engine is strong as an ox. When flying by myself I swear it seems like I could get off the ground in <75 feet if I wanted.

As much as I try, I cant find anything truly wrong with her that isn't superficial/cosmetic and isn't to be expected for the year.

 

[Henning]

15 evenly spaced hours a year can keep an engine in good shape.

 

[Tom-D]

No, not just the cylinders. As I stated above, my mechanic, during pre-buy and without removing any cylinders, was able to snake a borescope down into the case via the oil filler tube and inspect the cam shaft that way..

No he didn't, study the picture

 

[Arbiter419]

I bought my airplane when it had been "basically" sitting for 3-4 years. By "basically" I mean no more than 15 hours a year at the max.

Continental O-300 in a 1956 C172.

Had the full inspection done of the entire plane, including about 200 pictures of everything, reviewed every logbook back to the first entry.

Engine was compression tested, bore scoped, oil was checked, propeller was balanced, etc.

Total cost for the inspection was < $500, identified the nose cap was cracked and replaced it for a few hundred. Propeller balancing was about $125.

Saved piece of mind and worth every dollar I spent. Engine is strong as an ox. When flying by myself I swear it seems like I could get off the ground in <75 feet if I wanted.

As much as I try, I cant find anything truly wrong with her that isn't superficial/cosmetic and isn't to be expected for the year.

Just wait until you put the Lyc 180 horse in there

 

[Tom-D]

Just wait until you put the Lyc 180 horse in there

Why ruin a good aircraft?

 

[Arbiter419]

Why ruin a good aircraft?

Nothing against the O300, I think it's a beautiful engine. Smoother and sounds loads nicer than the 4 pot. I'm just a fan of the upgrade in performance it yields you. The conversion I'm familiar with even places it in the original (modified) cowling. Flown lots of 172s, a few with the 180 horse both vintage and mid series model. (Restart series doesn't count) Couldn't tell an appreciable difference between them weight and balance wise, they all fly like 172s to me

 

[JasonM]

What plane and engine did you buy?

2004 Cessna Turbo 182T - Lycoming

 

[hkyplr18]

Pulling a couple cylinders is not easy on some airplanes... Bonanza or a 310 come to mind...

If the seller wants to sell it at that point he'll need to do it anyway. Pulling
a couple of cylinders is simple. Why not take a look instead of wondering? You seem surprised at this idea. It sure as hell isn't new.

 

[Tom-D]

Pulling a couple cylinders is not easy on some airplanes... Bonanza or a 310 come to mind...

Many here believe you can pull a cylinder and put it right back on.

Maybe the big FBO's can if the stock the gaskets to do it. most A&P's in the field don't.

Then if you brake a ring, what will you do?

 

[Henning]

Many here believe you can pull a cylinder and put it right back on.

Maybe the big FBO's can if the stock the gaskets to do it. most A&P's in the field don't.

Then if you break a ring, what will you do?

I don't pull the jug off the piston to get in the crank case.

 

[vintage cessna]

It seems most people consider 2000 hours on an engine as "run out" and will price their offer accordingly. Why does no one consider the other TBO reccomendation of 12 years as "run out". Seems like you can't really determine the condition of the whole engine without disassembling.

 

[Henning]

It seems most people consider 2000 hours on an engine as "run out" and will price their offer accordingly. Why does no one consider the other TBO reccomendation of 12 years as "run out". Seems like you can't really determine the condition of the whole engine without disassembling.

I do, but I expect to be replacing mostly seals if it's a low time engine with years on them. That's basically how I got my 310. One engine had 250 the other 50, then it sat for 12 years in AZ getting a major airframe IRAN. He had just put new props on it to get it going before I bought it. I ended up doing the crank nose seals and injector seals which is what I was expecting.

 

[tyndall]

As I stated above, my mechanic, during pre-buy and without removing any cylinders, was able to snake a borescope down into the case via the oil filler tube and inspect the cam shaft that way.

No he didn't, study the picture

The guy has his plane in his signature and even included a link to his inspection post with pictures from the borescope. It's a 540.

Instead of a cryptic post of a picture of an irrelevant 4-banger and telling him his mechanic couldn't have seen the cam, maybe you could explain why not. You could also explain where the filler is on a 540 (although it doesn't sound like you have ever seen one) and what is three inches to the right of it.

 

[Tom-D]

The guy has his plane in his signature and even included a link to his inspection post with pictures from the borescope. It's a 540.

Instead of a cryptic post of a picture of an irrelevant 4-banger and telling him his mechanic couldn't have seen the cam, maybe you could explain why not. You could also explain where the filler is on a 540 (although it doesn't sound like you have ever seen one) and what is three inches to the right of it.

This thread was about a 0-320. it would have been nice to know you were talking about a 0540, that is one Lycoming that you can see the cam thru the filler neck.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...cWns7tC3jS9e3r7os9Y40Ibw&ust=1425839175485453