Buying a plane...LSA or not...

Art VanDelay said:
Get thy hindquarters down to SNF and see which one is right for you. Tecnam has a very good line up as well as Remos and CTLS.
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It ALL comes down to missions required, doesn't it?

If "Fun-flying", grass fly-outs and dinner runs are the vast majority of need, do I really need a Mooney or a Cirrus?
No, not really. Not all of us want higher-faster-farther. Some of us like Lower-Slower-Shorter, as well, or even more. (Seaplane types, especially)

There are some NICE LSA's (and some Almost LSA's) out there now. And the used prices are coming down into the affordable range, as well ($50-$60K)

I agree with the above, the Tecnam's win for cost-of-ownership, ease of repair, etc.
The Piper/Czech sports are a close second IMO. I also REALLY like the Paradise P1/P4.
 
Ravioli said:
if @steviedeviant wants to spend 100k for a new plane that goes 120knts max with two bodies max and all the other lovely LSA restrictions on it, that's his choice.

Have fun with it and post lots of pictures.
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Well, the original post was based off the parameters....I wasn't trying to lean to one side or the other. I wanted to get the feedback. I really appreciate all the feedback and that is what makes this board great.
Sounds like that one option is to go with something "legacy" that may be older but less than $100K - and then use the extra for upgrades. I think it would be faster. Or, compromise with less speed and maybe go LSA with something newer, may a little fancier looking. This is something I will continue to review, but I am open to both options and wanted to learn. I now have a starting place to look at all options.

Since I want to go IFR at some point in my training, I obviously will have more options with legacy planes. Lots of options out there. I look forward to researching it more.

Thanks,
Stephen
 
My two cents, LSA is not really a good x-country platform for two and luggage. Useful load just isn't there.
 
zaitcev said:
If you like flipping through the AD list
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The older planes I've flown typically have fewer ADs.

Compare most ANY 2000 or later plane to most any 50s or earlier.


citizen5000 said:
Any examples?
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Sure

S108
C170/40/20
8A
7AC
J3
PA 18 (design soooo good it's still remade today)
PA24
Tripacer
Pacer
Stearman
I could go on.
 
James331 said:
Sure

S108
C170/40/20
8A
7AC
J3
PA 18 (design soooo good it's still remade today)
PA24
Tripacer
Pacer
Stearman
I could go on.
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Some excellent planes on your list, I've enjoyed flying a number of them. One of my first flights was in a J3, I got my tailwheel in a 7AC, A close friend has a Stearman and I'm thrilled to fly with him whenever able. Light Sports lack the romance and history of some of these planes, but they'll get there. Which Light Sports have you flown and what makes them inferior in your opinion?
 
In the SLSA world there are many good products. http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/2016-light-sport-aircraft-lsa-choices-galore/#.WKnx_3-WVVU

Though Flight Design is in reorganization they are still producing planes (in Europe and China) and are the leader in the niche. RV has a factory built SLSA the RV-12 that is at the top also. Other makers to look at are Technam, Pipistrel, and Evektor for the standard class aircraft. Useful load average about 500lbs dependent on options and Rotax engine choice.

The STOLs are big sellers but have a different mission. These include Cub Crafter, Aerotrek and American Legend.
 
Cogito said:
Some excellent planes on your list, I've enjoyed flying a number of them. One of my first flights was in a J3, I got my tailwheel in a 7AC, A close friend has a Stearman and I'm thrilled to fly with him whenever able. Light Sports lack the romance and history of some of these planes, but they'll get there. Which Light Sports have you flown and what makes them inferior in your opinion?
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Well it's not just which I was ABLE to fly, but the ones I was not, even as a lighter (6' 170lbs) guy me plus many of my students plus enough fuel for the lesson killed a few of them, some notable models such as a 162 come to mind.

I did fly some of the new ones, the Czech sport cruiser was one, it just felt like a cheap plastic plane, the control balance was WAAAY out of wack comparing the pitch to the roll axis, to the point I would not train anyone in it, also the engine controls, or lack thereof, screamed lowest common denominator pilot wise, it was just such a ruff flying plane compared to a 7AC or S108 or C140, it was sad, especially with CAD and all the new stuff these guys have available to them making these things.
 
On many of my cross countries ,I usually run into a Ct or two that's touring the country. They are not cheap,but they fill a market.
 
Look at Aeroprakt. Add Dennis Long on facebook. He's the CEO/Owner of Aeroprakt USA. He's not far from us if you want to look at them.
 
When I wanted to get back into flying after 20+ years I was going to go LSA... and after flying a CT, was not impressed.... Rudder was heavy and needed to be used a lot, sight picture was off and I had issues landing it smoothly. Tried a Ramos and that was better, but still not what I really wanted. I looked at RV-12's and they are great... but then I got my medical back, and found a Cherokee 140 / 180 that was well priced at 23k, and it is everything I have wanted. Yes it is 50 years old, but 155mph cruse and 1000 lb useful load it gets the job done. I do not fly at night or IFR so again it fits what I need... I'm flying 350 to 400 mile trips and loving it .

Don't kick the older birds to the curb just because they are older than you... they are like a fine wine, improved with age, and new avionics..
 
Glenn D said:
When I wanted to get back into flying after 20+ years I was going to go LSA... and after flying a CT, was not impressed.... Rudder was heavy and needed to be used a lot, sight picture was off and I had issues landing it smoothly. Tried a Ramos and that was better, but still not what I really wanted. I looked at RV-12's and they are great... but then I got my medical back, and found a Cherokee 140 / 180 that was well priced at 23k, and it is everything I have wanted. Yes it is 50 years old, but 155mph cruse and 1000 lb useful load it gets the job done. I do not fly at night or IFR so again it fits what I need... I'm flying 350 to 400 mile trips and loving it .

Don't kick the older birds to the curb just because they are older than you... they are like a fine wine, improved with age, and new avionics..
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Glenn,

Just curious, is it generally better to buy and older plane and then update the avionics, or would you pay more for one already updated? As someone looking at an LSA options, I am curious about the general view in this.

Stephen
 
steviedeviant said:
Just curious, is it generally better to buy and older plane and then update the avionics, or would you pay more for one already updated? As someone looking at an LSA options, I am curious about the general view in this.
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At least in traditional light singles, it is always more advantageous financially to find an airplane with avionics already updated. However, most of the fleet were updated long time ago and need a new update by the time they come onto the market. This problem is getting more acute as the 2020 mandate approaches. In addition, up-to-date airplanes are significantly more expensive upfront. By updating your own airplane yourself you pay more than a hypothetical updated airplane would be worth, but you are paying it in installments.

Updating an S-LSA requires a Letter of Authorization from the manufacturer. Some of them are easily forthcoming with the letters, but others either stonewall or request outrageous fees. So I don't see many of them receiving updates. Owners switch to E-LSA to resolve this problem (just remember that you can never go back).
 
Ravioli said:
if @steviedeviant wants to spend 100k for a new plane that goes 120knts max with two bodies max and all the other lovely LSA restrictions on it, that's his choice.

Have fun with it and post lots of pictures.
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You could spend a LOT less and get a very updated Archer (that looks good!) that will carry 4 real people at 135kt.
 
$100k is a big budget. Especially for a completely tricked-out (read: GNS 650/750), ready to fly (read: low-time engine), pretty (read: fresh paint and interior), hideously outdated 60's or 70's airplane. You are doing yourself a great disservice by not looking for a perfect older craft. $100k will definitely buy it.
 
I have learned a lot from the comments on this post. I have also done a lot more research and appreciate the feedback. While I have not made a decision, I must say the feedback has allowed me to see what older options are out there along with possible upgrades. I started off leaning more to an LSA type option, but it is interesting how learning more has opened my eyes to the many options from older, but updated, planes. Thanks.
 
steviedeviant said:
Glenn,

Just curious, is it generally better to buy and older plane and then update the avionics, or would you pay more for one already updated? As someone looking at an LSA options, I am curious about the general view in this.

Stephen
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As noted, buying an aircraft with the avionics you want to end up with is better than upgrading one... the $$$$ spent on the new panel will not re recouped when selling it latter... But then having the equipment you want and need is more important to me than making sure I make money when selling the airplane. As also pointed out, E-LSA has a lot of benefits. I would really look at the RV-12 as it has a lot to offer, speed, top line avionics, and with proper equipment night flying... and most likely IFR work if one is IFR capable.
 
I have read through this and watched this thread and have to say it really depends on the mission of the majority of your flights. Personally since I am only going for my Sport Cert at this time, I will more than likely purchase a newer sport plane only because the older aircraft has such a limited payload if they apply to the LSA category. Now with that said if I won the Lottery I would buy a Bristell LSA, but since that option isn't likely at this time, I will more than likely end up with a very nicely equipped less expensive plane or a used aircraft.

There are several LSA's in the less then 100k brand new category as well as nicely used in the 60-70k area.

Aircraft with 85-115HP, 100-120KTS at cruise, 3.5 - 5.5 GPH, and a payload of 500+ lbs.

For my purpose of just enjoying flight and nice weather cross country flying why would I need anything else? I can fly from Ohio to Florida in a day, hang out with my brother and fly back over a long weekend (as long as weather is nice to me). 7-8 hours flight time is much better than 16 hours of driving.

Sure could I buy an other aircraft for less money, yes. For LSA - Cubs, ERCoupes, Aeronca's, Interstate's, Luscombe's, some Piper's, Porterfield's, Quicksiler - GT500, Taylorcraft's (yes I have the full list and yes I still look at them). But will they have as good a payload as the newer aircraft, not that I have found. As a 200lbs guy I am very limited to what I can buy and use for my purpose.

With all that said if I had my PPL or was going for my PPL which at this time I am not. (just doesn't fill my mission statement at this time) I would still consider a new LSA over some of the other aircraft for cost per hour, even with the higher purchase price, maintenance and fuel will almost make up for the lower purchase price. (key word almost)
 
Joey4420 said:
There are several LSA's in the less then 100k brand new category as well as nicely used in the 60-70k area.

Aircraft with 85-115HP, 100-120KTS at cruise, 3.5 - 5.5 GPH, and a payload of 500+ lbs.

For my purpose of just enjoying flight and nice weather cross country flying why would I need anything else?
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You will need ADS-B Out in a couple of years if you are going to be flying into controlled airspace. You can get a new Aerotrek A240 with Rotax 912ULS and glass panel (check out the iPanel option) with ADS-B/Mode S Transponder for around $90k. http://www.aerotrek.aero/pricing.htm
 
citizen5000 said:
You will need ADS-B Out in a couple of years if you are going to be flying into controlled airspace. You can get a new Aerotrek A240 with Rotax 912ULS and glass panel (check out the iPanel option) with ADS-B/Mode S Transponder for around $90k. http://www.aerotrek.aero/pricing.htm
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If buying used correct, but new most have them, I have been looking at the AeroTrek and BushCaddy for the lower priced new ones, but I really like the payload of the Jabiru J230-D. If I go used I will probably look at either E-SLA or EAB so I can just do most of the work myself (after a couple training classes of course).
 
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