buying a C172 with damage history

K

kruiser

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
6
Display Name
Display name:
kruiser
Hi..... first post here, thinking about buying a 172 that was damaged in 1983... two times (bad year) first time scraped a shed with right wing and then stopped against a tree. Two months later in 20 kt crosswinds ended up cartwheeling.

Same owners last 15 years and had 300 hrs on a major that was in 2006,
So, some 30 years later would that damage history have any or much of effect on price???? thank you
 
It will mostly because there are so many 172's available at any given moment so why buy one that "cartwheeled" when you can have one that didn't.
 
There are 4 things you can't undo: hours on the airframe, corrosion, missing logbooks, and damage.

So yes it will affect the valuation, which is the only reason someone would even consider buying such a plane - because it's cheap.
 
Is this plane in TN by chance? If so, I looked at that plane about a month and a half ago. Seemed to be a clean, well kept, nicely repaired plane but it had a lot of damage. If it is the same plane it also was flipped over in the late 90's during a storm. Bottom line we passed since it has extensive history.
 
It depends. Is it a good price? Are avionics/paint/interior/engine times good?

If it is good condition and at a good price I wouldn't let damage history from that long ago bother me.

The other side of this is that you are going to have to deal with buyers with the same concern when you go to sell it. If this is a long term bird for you them that may not be such a big deal. Just something to think about.
 
there are only 2 types of airplanes regarding damage history: Disclosed and undisclosed. There is no such thing as a no-damage-history 3+ decade old airplane.
 
Well you can "un do" damage. Just fix it.

I really don't care about damage, and yeah documented or un documented most all planes after X years have had a issue or two.

Heck try finding a 185 or 206 that hasn't had a bump or two.

What matters is how it was fixed. Get a good prebuy.

On mine you can't tell, the thing is as straight as an arrow.


If it was fixed fully and properly, it's a non event.
 
James331 said:
Well you can "un do" damage. Just fix it.
Click to expand...
Yes, but you cannot undo the history of the plane (and the stigma that comes with it), which is the real point of the post you quoted. As was already pointed out, even if you're fine with the fact that a plane has had damage which has since been repaired (I would be under reasonable circumstances), if you ever plan to sell the plane in the future, that will come up and hurt you.
 
C182P said:
if you ever plan to sell the plane in the future, that will come up and hurt you.
Click to expand...

Which means you have to buy right. Buying a damage history plane is ok IF it is repaired properly AND it is valued right considering the damage.
 
We're going through a similar mental exercise right now. As stated, those four things kill the selling price. Even if the damage was repaired, stronger than when it rolled out of the factory. Even if the high time airframe has been immaculately maintained, with not a lick of corrosion or cracking. Even if the missing logs are innocuous and the aircraft passes a detailed inspection. The selling price is tanked.

So this is where the buyer has an opportunity. If you can thoroughly inspect the aircraft, you can take advantage of it. You can determine that the damage history or high time is no factor... it is structurally sound, well repaired, and well maintained. The factors killing the price are paper factors only. If not for the piece of paper saying "damage history" or "high time", it would be a $50,000 plane. Yet because of the piece of paper, you can buy it for $25,000. You get a structurally sound, well maintained aircraft for half price because of an administrative technicality. Winning.

You absolutely must we willing and ready to say "no thanks" and walk away. You must not allow your giddy desire for a great inexpensive plane allow your brain to rationalize overlooking dangerous conditions. Structural faults, shoddy repairs, things just not adding up, uncovered lies, etc. You must be in the mindset to walk away from it.

However, like Chris said, do bear all this in mind if you think you're going to try to sell it in a few years. You will have the same problem as the guy you bought it from. You will not be able to sell it for good money either due to the "administrative depreciation" the history brought with it. So if you plan to keep it for many years and understand this is not like flipping real estate, it is a good plan.
 
Last edited:
I would consider an airplane with damage history,if repaired correctly,and priced right. I'd want a good inspection done by a mechanic I trust. Knowing that sooner or later I am going to sell or trade it
 
Corrosion is much worse than damage, IMHO. But yes, a proper inspection is vital.
 
zaitcev said:
Corrosion is much worse than damage, IMHO. But yes, a proper inspection is vital.
Click to expand...

Can a corroded part be removed and new part put in place? Let's asseme small area of corrosion. How would that affect value? And as mentioned above, I'm sure there are some logbooks that have been intentionally lost to hide extensive damage and the seller figured it was a softer hit than the truth in the logs.
 
The Damage History on this plane caused you to stop, research, join POA, start a thread because of some little voice in the back of your head.

Right there, that is proof that it does affect the value, as if it did not have the damage history, you would have proceeded without this step.

As has been said before, there are plenty of 172's out there, some without damage history. Therefore, one that causes you to stop and rethink needs to be priced enough at a discount that you won't feel bad in x years when you try and sell it, and other people have the same concerns.

If the plane is worth $40k, undamaged, and you can buy it for $25k, seems like a good deal, knowing when you sell it will only be for $25k, less your depreciation.

All these planes have issues after a couple of decades, you just have to make the trade-offs on what you are willing to overlook and what you need discounted. A buyer from you in x years will make the same decisions.

Don't overpay for a 172 in this market.
 
Well that depends on what part it is. If the wing spar is corroded through, sure you could put a new wing on it....

Some can be cleaned up, stop-drilled, and have doubler plates put over it. And some requires removal of the component. That component is generally not small or cheap.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Can a corroded part be removed and new part put in place?
Click to expand...
It's a question of money. Back in the day, people even replaced corroded spars in Cherokees. I flew one of those, with mismatched wings. But these days the pool of pilots contracts faster than airplanes go out of service. Therefore, repairing corrosion in key areas is more expensive than junking the airplane and buying a next one from a guy who lost his medial, or his widow.
 
JHW said:
there are only 2 types of airplanes regarding damage history: Disclosed and undisclosed. There is no such thing as a no-damage-history 3+ decade old airplane.
Click to expand...

Thank you for continuing that BS, because it enables me to buy nice old aircraft for a very low price.
 
James331 said:
Well you can "un do" damage. Just fix it.

I really don't care about damage, and yeah documented or un documented most all planes after X years have had a issue or two.

Heck try finding a 185 or 206 that hasn't had a bump or two.

What matters is how it was fixed. Get a good prebuy.

On mine you can't tell, the thing is as straight as an arrow.


If it was fixed fully and properly, it's a non event.
Click to expand...

Would that it were so. It may be a non-event to you as a buyer, but upon sale, the pool of potential buyers dictates whether that damage matters or not.

Some people care about whether their aircraft was ever damaged. And if given a choice between DH and NDH, they - for whatever personal reasons - tend to pay more for NDH aircraft on average.

I agree that it is possible to fix the damage, but the airplane forever carries the "damage history" moniker. It is there for us to heed or ignore and each person and each transaction is an individual choice.

The simple fact is that the "damage history" moniker -- even when the damage is fully repaired -- reduces the pool of potential buyers when it's time to sell. That has the effect of resulting in a lower selling price ON AVERAGE than an aircraft with NDH.

So yeah you can buy a properly repaired DH aircraft and get a great deal and have no trouble with it for many years. But when it is time to sell, you'll have to find a buyer who is willing to overlook the damage history. Many will. But that is still a subset of the total potential buyers for an aircraft.
 
Last edited:
By the way the same phenomenon occurs with cars now that there is carfax and other similar services. When we were looking for a used car we ignored all the ones with damage history for the most part because there were not signicant reductions in price to bother.

I did hear a guy at a dealership telling a couple thier trade in that they bought used wasn't worth what they thought because it now showed damage history that they didn't know about when they bought it (from that same dealer) because carfax had bought new databases.
 
Last edited:
Arrow115 said:
It depends. Is it a good price? Are avionics/paint/interior/engine times good?

If it is good condition and at a good price I wouldn't let damage history from that long ago bother me.

The other side of this is that you are going to have to deal with buyers with the same concern when you go to sell it. If this is a long term bird for you them that may not be such a big deal. Just something to think about.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. The next set of buyers will ask the same questions. It's similar to a high time airframe. May not be bad but can potentially hurt resale.
 
Wingtip dings? Happens all the time. Cartwheel! scary!

All I can say is test fly this airplane before you make an offer. There is a good chance that even if the repairs are structurally sound, that this airframe is crooked, in which case you'll never be able to trim it for level flight.
 
DFH65 said:
By the way the same phenomenon occurs with cars now that there is carfax and other similar services. When we were looking for a used car we ignored all the ones with damage history for the most part because there were not signicant reductions in price to bother.

I did hear a guy at a dealership telling a couple thier trade in that they bought used wasn't worth what they thought because it now showed damage history that they didn't know about when they bought it (from that same dealer) because carfax had bought new databases.
Click to expand...

1. that buyer can recoup from Carfax if they kept the paperwork
2. Thats bad business to tell a customer that
3. There is a similar phenomenon in used sportbikes. I've heard thats its rare to find a bike >4-5 yrs old that has never been down. I know a guy with a bike that was insurance totaled twice, no paperwork on that history.
 
Tom-D said:
Thank you for continuing that BS, because it enables me to buy nice old aircraft for a very low price.
Click to expand...
I have yet to find any airplane that i couldn't find some sort of damage history on. A rudder reskinned from hangar rash, a bird strike. Every airplane has something unless it sat in storage from the day it left wichita.
 
petrolero said:
Would that it were so. It may be a non-event to you as a buyer, but upon sale, the pool of potential buyers dictates whether that damage matters or not.

Some people care about whether their aircraft was ever damaged. And if given a choice between DH and NDH, they - for whatever personal reasons - tend to pay more for NDH aircraft on average.

I agree that it is possible to fix the damage, but the airplane forever carries the "damage history" moniker. It is there for us to heed or ignore and each person and each transaction is an individual choice.

The simple fact is that the "damage history" moniker -- even when the damage is fully repaired -- reduces the pool of potential buyers when it's time to sell. That has the effect of resulting in a lower selling price ON AVERAGE than an aircraft with NDH.

So yeah you can buy a properly repaired DH aircraft and get a great deal and have no trouble with it for many years. But when it is time to sell, you'll have to find a buyer who is willing to overlook the damage history. Many will. But that is still a subset of the total potential buyers for an aircraft.
Click to expand...

For 172s, PA28s, Cirrui, yeah.

Your demographic is first time aircraft buyers, PPLs new to aviation, they are the types that will buy shiney paint and upholstry over meat and potatoes, more like buying a new car to them.

Side step to 185s 206s and turbines, now its more 135 folks and CPLs and ATPs, now you're sellin a plane based on CURRENT condition, times/dates, mods, etc.
 
I can quickly count six aircraft belonging to folks I know that are over 40 years old that have never had major damage and are in very nice shape. All have had only one or two owners. The burning question I have is.......why bother with a barking dog like this when, if one is patient and looks around carefully, a much better aircraft can be found without all this prior damage? Unless money is very limited, in which case your probably better off renting.
 
Depends on the plane, for a 172, if its really nice, good times, good engine, avionics, pretty etc, sure.

But there are many more 172s

For less common planes you're not going to see a price difference.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I can quickly count six aircraft belonging to folks I know that are over 40 years old that have never had major damage and are in very nice shape. All have had only one or two owners. The burning question I have is.......why bother with a barking dog like this when, if one is patient and looks around carefully, a much better aircraft can be found without all this prior damage? Unless money is very limited, in which case your probably better off renting.
Click to expand...

How did they run the search?

Also that only means there is no DOCUMENTED damage history.
 
cmatis..... yes, this airplane is from TN, so they had it for sale awhile now.
 
kruiser said:
cmatis..... yes, this airplane is from TN, so they had it for sale awhile now.
Click to expand...

We looked at it around the first of September. We just didn't think the price reflected the numerous damage events. It has had both wings replaced twice along with numerous other repairs.
 
I have owned 3 airplanes.
All 3 have had damage history.

The 1st was a 1942 vintage advertised as "no damage history". Yeah, right:lol:

The second was a '66 172 that had a wing replaced in the 1980's because a Stearman tried to eat it. It was one of the truest flying planes I have ever flown.

My current plane, a '65 182, has suffered substantial damage all more than 30 years ago. Today it looks and performs as good as any 100K dollar Spam Can you will find. It also has over 7500 hours on the airframe. I would fly it anywhere I would fly a brand new one.

The thing is I paid my "tuition" with the 1st one. Learned what to look for and walked away from anything I wasn't comfortable with or lacked documentation.

Your comfort level with damage history will vary with how much you know about how these things tick and how much grease you are willing to get on you.

Will I take a beating when it is time to sell? I haven't yet.
Just be careful and walk away if it doesn't look or feel right.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
The burning question I have is.......why bother with a barking dog like this when, if one is patient and looks around carefully, a much better aircraft can be found without all this prior damage? Unless money is very limited, in which case your probably better off renting.
Click to expand...

Renting comes with a handful of restrictions. I guess I don't see the down side to someone buying an old 172 w/ damage history for some really fun and inexpensive flying, especially if he plans on hanging on to it indefinitely.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top