Buy then train vs. train then buy

[QuiQuog]

Is there more advantage to purchasing an airplane to train in, or is the advantage to get trained and have more knowledge when purchasing?

If I purchace a plane and train in it, I'll be familiar with it when I'm let loose. I'll be better able to fly it since I've already spent some hours in it.

If I wait until I'm trained, I'll be better able to judge the airplane since I'll be able to fly it and be able to pick up on nuances that I may like or dislike.

 

[steingar]

Depends on who you are and why you're learning to fly. If you already have a "mission", and already know what you want to do with the aircraft, you are probably better off purchasing one to train in, all things being equal. Saves rental fees and you train int eh airplane you're flying, thus you know it well. But if you don't really know what you'll be doing, then I think you're better off renting. You can experience more aircraft and have a better idea of what suits you.

Moreover, owning you can fall into a trap. I'd love to get an IR, but my aircraft doesn't have the necessary instruments and they're breathtakingly expensive to install. Thus I haven't. Were I renting I'd just rent an IR equipped aircraft and have at it.

 

[jspilot]

Another thing to consider is purchasing a plane you plan on flying that is vastly different than a typical trainer(172 or Cherokee/warrior) is probably worth doing. However, if you plan on flying a 172 or a cherokee/warior after your PPL then the benefit of buying a plane to become an expert in your own 172 is lessened. Basically all 172's and the like fly the same so why not just learn on the schools planes and not have to worry about the added complexities of aircraft ownership that I've read about on this and similar sites. If you plan on flying a complex airplane after your ticket I could see the advantage. If you plan on flying a trainer after your PPL with the benefits of ownership than I might wait.

Truthfully, I've always rented for the past 2 years since I started training and now after I have my PPL. Renting does not teach you much with regards to owning a plane. You show up, use the plane for the time you want and the leave. That's kind of a nice thing too especially without much experience as a pilot. I'd love to own a plane some day because it has so many perks but I'm content renting for the time being.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you are going to buy to train, you'd best be darn sure you're going to finish and fly onwards. If not, expect to lose about $5000 total on the two transactions including lower selling than buying price, travel, prebuys, title searches, etc.

 

[Ted]

Depends on your intent with flying and your overall desires. Personally I think it makes more sense to train and then buy, because the plane you use for a trainer is quite likely not going to be what you'll ultimately want.

On the other hand, if you want to have a newer airplane, you might be able to do well by buying (and depreciating) a newer plane. If you're looking at an older plane, you'll have a year or two of getting it up to par on maintenance, and that can prove to be an expensive experience. Makes most sense on a plane you intend to keep for a long time.

 

[Kelvin]

I bought to train...flew the 172 for 300ish hours...sold...bought a 182 and got my instrument rating in the 182...flew it about 850 hours...then bought a Matrix...

If I had it to do over...I would have bought the 182 first or not have bought until I knew more about aviation...

I didn't take a beating at all on either aircraft...as a matter of fact, since they were both slightly used (65 hours and 55 hours respectively)...I did well on the depreciation and got to train in very nice aircraft...

 

[JOhnH]

Depends on how independently wealthy you are.

I wouldn't advise buying until you have trained enough to KNOW that you will finish. There can be lots of reasons not to finish. Plus, your point about being more educated after training is valid. Planes aren't cheap and mistakes are expensive.

Also consider sales tax. You will probably pay it when you buy, but you won't get it back when you sell.

 

[Kelvin]

Also consider sales tax. You will probably pay it when you buy, but you won't get it back when you sell.

Great point...here in NC the max sales tax on a boat or aircraft is $1500.00..elsewhere it can go from zero to brutal...

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I bought a $20k trainer and saved $15,000 in costs owning my Cherokee for the first three years 600 hrs over what rental would have been to do the same number of hours. lI could have easily sold the Cherokee when I was done training for $16-17k but chose to keep it. I kept it Over 9 years I am unsure how much I saved but it was probably about the same again meaning I saved more than the cost of the plane and total cost of fuel, maintenance, hangar rent and other ownership costs. Maybe not everyone can do this, I am lucky living in the midwest and being good at project management.

I went on to buy a HP/Complex Turbo as my 2nd plane and the skills I learned in keeping costs down, maintenance, negotiating with IA's and A&Ps all helped keep ownership of that speed demon at bay. Had I needed to learn cost management with the 2nd airplane rather than the first it could likely have been a bloody mess. Just like buying and owning a Civic is an easy matter compared to buying and owning a Corvette.

I think I did better to cut my teeth on the easy, modest, forgiving and low cost trainer.

Even after buying the Cherokee 10 years ago and sold it last year in a considerably worse economy and after 9 full years of ownership had only $5k depreciation so I say I came out extremely well. I do not think I have ever had that great of luck on any boat, car, truck or motor home or anything with an engine. So I was very happy but maybe others expect to make money on airplanes but those days seem to be gone.

No matter what the economy is if you are a fool and pay too much or kid yourself of what is or is not important and or invest $30k into a $20k plane and then sell it you will lose your butt. I learned watching friends in High School that if you put $2000 wheels on a El Camino and then sell it you are committing financial suicide. So regardless of if you buy now or later do it right, read books about how to buy, being pretty good at buying and selling cars and homes is a very good indicator of your ability to handle an airplane transaction without scathing. Most of us fly many more hours per year our first years than later on. So possibly buy the trainer, get 600 hrs and then sell it, then decide if you want to rent or buy the Comanche or Bonanza to fly only 50-80 hrs a year.

BTW- I would recommend you buy a 2+2 seater rather than just a 2 seater as your mission could grow to include three guys flying to Oshkosh fly ins or Sun N FUN....or taking two couples for that $100 hamburger flight. The difference in cost per hour between a 2 seat and 4 seat trainer is probably less than $20 per hour. When and if you ever decide to lease it back or rent it out you will have more options to rent it.

 

[Topper]

I think it is a great question. I think the short answer is that you are likely to not pick the right airplane until you have more experience. It is likely that if you buy a trainer and sell it down the road, it will cost you more than renting. However, having you own plane that you can leave your stuff in and is always available to you has some value. If dollars is the most important issue to you, then keep renting and maybe never buy a plane.

I purchased a share in a 182 to finish my training. It was a good deal that fell in my lap. If I had not done this deal, I would have looked for a cherokee 180 to complete my private work on my instrument. If IR training is your goal, make sure you purchase something with the equipment in it you will need for training. You will almost definitely spend more money upgrading avionics than you will get back out when selling. With that said, having the equipment you want is also worth something. I think you could move into and then back out of a 180 without too much of a loss, but most likely at more cost than renting.

I got a great deal on the 182 and ultimately purchased out the other partners. I am getting ready to put a GTN 650 in. I considered a used 430w for much less money, but decided that I wanted the latest and greatest instead of the 430w. Fortunately not all decisions have to be based on the lowest financial cost, if it did, I would never have started flying.

Good luck with your decision.

Jim

 

[wabower]

Spend some time talking to owners. Ask them if they bought the same airplane in which they trained. If not, ask why.

 

[bbchien]

The problem with buy and then train is that you can't possibly know what you don't know. But a lotta guys just can't see that there might be something they don't already know...just can't get their heads around that.

Being misinformed is VERY VERY expensive, well beyond any sales tax or new a/c startup expense....

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

If you want to own an airplane, buy an airplane.

If you want to do what makes the most economic sense, don't fly.

 

[N801BH]

I bought my Warrior. N4341X when I had 1.5 hours in my log book... I love building equity and hate having stacks of cancelled checks from renting ANYTHING...... In my case I made out good on the resale and would do it again in a heartbeat.......

YMMV....

 

[kclimie]

Don't even start down the ownership path until you have your medical in hand --it would suck to buy a plane you can't fly because of some medication you're on...

 

[skynewbie]

I would rent for a while at least until you finish your checkride and PPL. For me, I want to own my plane eventually but need to do research and fly different aircraft to really make the best decision. Talk with MX shops and mechanics on the cost of ownership and maintenance. I hear the sweet spot is 200+ hours annual flying makes it worth while. If you plan to fly less, its cheaper to rent.

 

[wabower]

If you think that 200 hours is a valid number, be sure to ask the shops how many hours per year are actually flown by the planes they maintain.

I would rent for a while at least until you finish your checkride and PPL. For me, I want to own my plane eventually but need to do research and fly different aircraft to really make the best decision. Talk with MX shops and mechanics on the cost of ownership and maintenance. I hear the sweet spot is 200+ hours annual flying makes it worth while. If you plan to fly less, its cheaper to rent.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I hear the sweet spot is 200+ hours annual flying makes it worth while. If you plan to fly less, its cheaper to rent.

Where did you hear 200?

Most folks typically use 100 per year as the break even point between owning vs renting.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[comanchepilot]

Not mentioned is aircraft condition. While trainers are adequately and legally maintained - there is rarely a trainer in as good condition as a privately owned and flown aircraft.

The radio stack will likely be nicer, the seats nicer, the interior and carpeting, nicer. Likely to be less wear on yokes and components, the latches and windows will work better, and many outside components with less wear and tear, and the paint may be in better shape - fewer scratches on the exterior, the wash and wax generally in better shape.

I have yet to see a trainer or rental aircraft that was not looking a little threadbare in spots.

So if you like the airplane to work - owned generally results in better condition if not better dispatch reliability.

I was in a trainer yesterday being ferried to my mechanic - and one of the radios was loose, the seats worn, the starter did not engage all of the time, it took some effort to get a hot 4 cylinder Lyc started, the AP was inop [whether in reality or placarded for simplicity of maintenance] the side windows were fogged and hazed and needed replacement, the ADF was maybe or maybe not working - it did not seem so, and the data card in the GX-55 had not been updated since 2001. . . .

 

[cowman]

I'm looking at buying one and I'm only part way through my training.

For me, a big part of why I want to fly is the freedom to go where I want and when I want. For clubs/rentals my only choices are a 172 or a 152 and they seem to be tied up pretty often.

It's probably not at all the most practical economical choice, but I'm not sure what someone who limits themselves to practical economical things is doing in aviation.

 

[MN_Flyer]

There is no right or wrong answer, but I do have another option for you..... join a flight club. This is sort of the middle road between your two options. I joined a flight club after getting my PPL and really wish I had done so sooner. The planes are in MUCH better condition, the availability is better, and the training is cheaper.

I pay $105 a month in dues. The savings on my hourly rental rate basically means that if I fly 2 hours a month, I break even. When something breaks on an aircraft or needs to be upgraded, I notify the maintenance officer and it gets fixed. I don't have to scrape up $500 for a new fuel pump, fund a gyro overhaul, or worry how I'm gonna pay for an overhaul. I get to enjoy the fun part of flying!

As a member of the club, I can pick my own instructor and pay them considerably-less than I was paying the FBO for training. At the FBO, I was paying $45 an hour from the time I walked in the door until I left. The instructor only saw a fraction of that money and the FBO kept the rest. I am currently working on my IR and am flying with an instructor again. He charges me $30 based on what the HOBBS meter says and doesn't charge for preflight time or the pre and post-flight briefings. He gets to keep all $30 bucks and I pay much less. Everyone wins.

When I decide that I don't want to fly Piper Archers and Arrows anymore, I can sell my share in the club and buy whatever I want to. It is also a huge advantage to have a group of pilots giving you advice. Many members of my club are much more knowledgeable than I am and they are always willing to give pointers and share experiences. I have also learned a lot about aircraft maintenance and ownership just by being a member. By spending some time around our mechanic and doing research into avionics upgrades this past year, I feel like I have prepared myself for aircraft ownership. If I do decide to buy my own plane, I will be a much more educated buyer.

 

[djpfinancial]

I purchased a Cherokee before I started training. First of all, I didn't want to be on anyone's schedule but mine when it came time to fly. (except the CFI) I shopped around for several months before I found the "right" plane and couldn't be happier. There is also something to say for not having to adjust the seat each time you get into the plane.

I talked to several owners before I made my decision and exercised a pre-buy with my IA. I shopped for a good deal and know that I wont loose any money when I outgrow my 140. Who knows, maybe I'll just keep it for a few years. It is IFR equipped, so after my PPL, I may just wait a couple of months and get right into my IFR. Cheap to fly and with the upgrades, newer radios, 160hp with 750 hours until TBO, flow meter, digital engine analyzer, newer paint and interior, STOL kit, strobes, and wheel pants it's pretty nice.

If you decide to buy, look for the right deal. If you can't wait, start training in a rental and then move into your own plane when you find it. Good luck!

When the weather cooperates, I hope to finish in the next 2 weeks. I started in mid November and was able, because I own the plane, to fly several times a week before the weather crapped out here in the north east!

Dave

 

[N801BH]

I purchased a Cherokee before I started training. First of all, I didn't want to be on anyone's schedule but mine when it came time to fly. (except the CFI) I shopped around for several months before I found the "right" plane and couldn't be happier. There is also something to say for not having to adjust the seat each time you get into the plane.

I talked to several owners before I made my decision and exercised a pre-buy with my IA. I shopped for a good deal and know that I wont loose any money when I outgrow my 140. Who knows, maybe I'll just keep it for a few years. It is IFR equipped, so after my PPL, I may just wait a couple of months and get right into my IFR. Cheap to fly and with the upgrades, newer radios, 160hp with 750 hours until TBO, flow meter, digital engine analyzer, newer paint and interior, STOL kit, strobes, and wheel pants it's pretty nice.

If you decide to buy, look for the right deal. If you can't wait, start training in a rental and then move into your own plane when you find it. Good luck!

When the weather cooperates, I hope to finish in the next 2 weeks. I started in mid November and was able, because I own the plane, to fly several times a week before the weather crapped out here in the north east!

Dave

First post................ Welcome to POA...

 

[djpfinancial]

Thank you!

Dave

 

[Sac Arrow]

My experience is buying and selling airplanes are financial losers on the short term. Personally, I think it's better to get some experience with a variety of planes during training and maybe for some time after until you develop your mission requirements, then buy a plane.

As a general rule of thumb, the breakpoint between renting and owning is roughly 150 hours a year. You should be able to pick up a PPL and an IR in less than that.

 

[wabower]

I purchased a Cherokee before I started training. First of all, I didn't want to be on anyone's schedule but mine when it came time to fly. (except the CFI) I shopped around for several months before I found the "right" plane and couldn't be happier. There is also something to say for not having to adjust the seat each time you get into the plane.

I talked to several owners before I made my decision and exercised a pre-buy with my IA. I shopped for a good deal and know that I wont loose any money when I outgrow my 140. Who knows, maybe I'll just keep it for a few years. It is IFR equipped, so after my PPL, I may just wait a couple of months and get right into my IFR. Cheap to fly and with the upgrades, newer radios, 160hp with 750 hours until TBO, flow meter, digital engine analyzer, newer paint and interior, STOL kit, strobes, and wheel pants it's pretty nice.

If you decide to buy, look for the right deal. If you can't wait, start training in a rental and then move into your own plane when you find it. Good luck!

When the weather cooperates, I hope to finish in the next 2 weeks. I started in mid November and was able, because I own the plane, to fly several times a week before the weather crapped out here in the north east!

Dave

How do you know future resale value? How do you know you'll like this particular plane for normal owner use vs. training use? How do you know the amount of future use, and whether it will justify keeping any plane on the payroll?

These are some of the issues that arise during conversations with owners after the new wears off. It doesn't mean that buying a plane was or wasn't the best decision, it simply means that looking at the equation can be different depending on your perspective.

 

[Alexb2000]

If it is possible to train in the exact aircraft you are considering purchasing then it is a useful exercise if you want to see what the aircraft will cost. Many of the more capable rentals are in the $300+ an hour range. It's one thing to say those numbers another to take a long cross country trip, come back and look at your bill. If all those zeros don't give you any thought then that is probably an aircraft you should consider purchasing (assuming you liked it).

 

[djpfinancial]

How do you know future resale value? How do you know you'll like this particular plane for normal owner use vs. training use? How do you know the amount of future use, and whether it will justify keeping any plane on the payroll?

These are some of the issues that arise during conversations with owners after the new wears off. It doesn't mean that buying a plane was or wasn't the best decision, it simply means that looking at the equation can be different depending on your perspective.

Wow, flame the new guy! Well, if I must explain...My brother has had his PPL for 10 years, and as I've stated, I did in fact talk to several other pilots prior to the purchase.

My brother trained on a 172 and then bought his first plane, a 140. He kept it for 5 years and then upgraded to an Archer II 180. A good move for him.

My plans for this plane are to fly a few hundered miles from home, when I want too on a regular basis. As for the affordability, not a concern for me. I have several other toys to keep me occupied.

As for future value, well I just checked and my crystal ball appears to be broken at the moment. Let me get back to on that.

Otherwise, based upon my research prior to purchasing this plane, and the actual prices that they have sold for in the last 10 years, and the opinion of several others that are in the actual business of aircrafts....whew I would imagine that based upon my own circumstances, and knowledge and research, my BEST guess would be that I won't loose any money on this deal. If I do, what concern is it of yours? What possible Financial advice can you give me?

On this forum, are you not allowed an opinion or real life expierences?

Dave

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Dave,

I think wayne is just saying that we cannot depend on coming out on plane sales..>Used to be able to depend on appreciation like in homes...those days seem over for the near term.

I did the same thing as you. Bought a 140, flew 600 hrs in 3 years at less than half the cost of a rental aircraft. Later flew 1100 hrs in 9 years I kept it.

There is no comparing the freedom and ease of flight when you have keys in your pocket.

 

[Theboys]

In my opinion there are many reasons for owning. Availability. Being comfortable in a familiar airplane. The knowledge that you own a plane you need to keep on course for your ppl to be able to use it. Being able to spend more practice time as your daily expense is only gas and oil. The only disadvantage is cost of ownership and purchase price. But hey ya can't take it with you.

 

[Henning]

Basically comes down to this, "Why do you want to fly?" If you have a mission for an aircraft and you can afford to fill that mission with an aircraft, then the best thing to do is buy the aircraft that fits your mission and train in it from day one. If you want to fly because you always wanted to, or think it's pretty cool even though you don't really know what you're going to do with it, then rent. Reality is that GA is very low utility for the average person and most people quit flying within a year or two.