Building kits and spreading the purchase price over time?

[Brad W]

What are the current ballpark lead times for engines and avionics?
I think I've read about some pretty long leads on engines..at least from continental and lycoming. How about Rotax lead times?
and how about lead times for avionics?

I'm daydreaming hard about retiring in a couple short years and building a kit project. So far I haven't been thinking so much about the logistics of money, mostly just the general idea that I could spread the purchase price over time to end up with a nice new aircraft with a 'softer' upfront financial impact. Now that I'm thinking in more detail, I'm second-guessing if this is the case.

With the lead times I'm seeing for kits and engines, it seems like I'd need to order the thing now to begin work in a year or two or even more. I was told by one maker that most folks order the complete kit to avoid getting killed in shipping charges...and if I have to order the engine up front then that just trashes the idea of ordering a tailkit now, a wing kit in 6 months, etc......pushing the engine and avionics purchase out maybe a year or more... Is that even realistic?

I'd probably be better off to just buy an old certified bird of some sort or another.... but I've always enjoyed tinkering and making stuff so I think it could be fun to do + keep me busy as I transition and while the wife is still enjoying working her business + it can be full-time when I want it to be or I can put it aside when I need to work on other stuff or travel, etc...
and bonus it might allow me to spread the costs of an aircraft out just a little.

EAB appeals to me since I'd like to continue to do some maintenance and modifications moving forward...and theoretically hold costs down, but I'm not so sure about any of this being cheaper than some simple old certified cessna/piper/beech/mooney/etc SE!...and the more I look at the numbers I start to think that direction makes better financial sense!

Lately I'be been thinking mostly about a Ran's S-21, a Sling HW, and the less likely Van's RV-15
Seems like in every one of these cases, it'll push maybe $200k up to even $300k for the sling...and all at once...yeah, might be better to buy a well broken in bird and letting a pro A&P do all the work

 

[Racerx]

I'd buy the engine now. It'll be pickled and prices will only go up. Avionics I would hold off on. Much less lead time, and who knows what might be new to the market when youre ready for it.

 

[TCABM]

Strategy plays a huge role when it comes to the engine. You can snag a deal on an engine that’s being auctioned off and DIY it, have it rebuilt or exchange and not have to deal with the lead time and expense of a new lycoming.

Patience and knowledge are a virtue in this instance because the really expensive and long lead time parts are the case and crank.

Our O-320 in January was four months from order to delivery for an exchange for $35K. Double the price and quadruple the lead time for factory new.

 

[tsts4]

Anecdotally new Lycomings are running 15-18+ months. I don’t think there’s much of a backlog for avionics as far as the boxes themselves go, but if you want someone to build the full panel for you then there’s some lead time involved but I don’t think it’s anything like engines.

A solid used E-AB maybe a good option— can be less expensive than a new kit plus you’d be flying now.

 

[Brad W]

Yeah, I've never thought hard about buying an already flying EAB...or a partially completed project either. I like the idea of the project (to a point), and would probably feel better about not having unknown-quality work buried down deep someplace I can't really see.
but I'm starting to think that maybe I should look into those options a little more and this idea of getting a repairman's certificate for it.
Seems that often they are listed for prices of what looks to be less than the total sum of the parts so bargains maybe. Still, that would totally negate the advantage of spreading the purchase price out over time.....I could afford to do it but it's an easier sell to the wife to spread it out as a project....

 

[tsts4]

Yeah, I've never thought hard about buying an already flying EAB...or a partially completed project either. I like the idea of the project (to a point), and would probably feel better about not having unknown-quality work buried down deep someplace I can't really see.
but I'm starting to think that maybe I should look into those options a little more and this idea of getting a repairman's certificate for it.
Seems that often they are listed for prices of what looks to be less than the total sum of the parts so bargains maybe. Still, that would totally negate the advantage of spreading the purchase price out over time.....I could afford to do it but it's an easier sell to the wife to spread it out as a project....

So if you buy an already certificated/flying E-AB, you can't get the Repairman's Certificate for it unfortunately. You can still do 100% of the maintenance but an A&P (IA not required) will have to sign off on the annual condition inspection. However, if you were to buy an E-LSA, then you could take the Repairman's course and do everything as the LSA rules are different.

IMO the key to purchasing a used E-AB is having a person experienced in the make and model, preferably a builder of same, help you separate the wheat from the chaff. There's typically other avenues that can help too--for example in the RV world there's also at least couple of shops off the top of my head that specialize in RVs that can assist with pre-buys. I guess in end you need to spend the time to educate yourself thoroughly on the strengths and weaknesses on any planes you target.

As for building vs buying, your finances and time will have to dictate that. Yes building will allow you to spread the cost over time, especially if you're paying cash as you go, but building won't necessarily be cheaper in the long run, especially when compared to buying a used aircraft whether it be standard certificated or E-AB/E-LSA of similar capability/specs. You also have to factor in what your time is worth, maybe not necessarily in terms of money but in opportunity cost, as building takes significant dedication to get from day 1 to flying aircraft. Finally, you really need to be honest with yourself as to why you may want to build in the first place-- the saying is if you want to build, build. If you want to fly, buy.

 

[tspear]

Shipping cost will vary depending on the kit and where you live. For example, if you live in Florida, picking up from the Velocity factory is not that big of a deal. if ordering an RV, the shipping cost becomes a much larger consideration.
Also, in terms of spreading out the financial pain. Consider the number of hours listed for the kit. On a few different forums, most estimate your total effort will be three to four times that number; then consider how fast you will do it. A lot of the total effort time is actually setup and cleanup. So, if you did a program like the Glassair two weeks to taxi (no idea if this is still available), you would decrease your total build time; and there would be very limited use in trying to spread the financial pain.

Most of the advice i have seen in other forums, is pick the kit. Figure out the engine approach and order it or start watching for it (assuming looking for a core to rebuild/exchange) then order the kit. Order Avionics just before you are ready to install them.

Tim

 

[jbarrass]

Don't build unless the process of building entertains you. It's not a faster or cheaper route to a flying plane. Building a plane is an awesome experience and for some (me) it's a grand endeavor in its own right.

If you are looking to fly in the relatively near term buy. A used EAB is a great option and you can do all the maintenance, but not the annual condition inspection.

A lot of people on the fence will start with a component kit (often the RV empennage or zenith rudder) and see if they like it. You'll end up with enough of a feel for whether you like building or not. If not, you are not in too deep.

 

[Albany Tom]

. but I've always enjoyed tinkering and making stuff so I think it could be fun to do + keep me busy as I transition and while the wife is still enjoying working her business + it can be full-time when I want it to be or I can put it aside when I need to work on other stuff or travel, etc...

This is the part of what you said that jumps out to me as why it might work.

A friend of mine built a couple of planes. He loved doing the work. He retired from the phone company as a tech, and enjoyed dedicated long hours to work on the planes. If you like the work, and you have the discipline or desire to spend a lot of hours on it, my barely informed opinion is that you can do it.

I don't think someone that doesn't like working on tech stuff, or working with their hands, or that can put in the many many hours can do it.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

FWIW: I bought my "already done been flying" E-AB LSA ride for less than the cost of either the kit or the engine alone. Now, it's not a brand new shiny designer label airplane, but it gets me in the air. Plus, I have had lots of opportunities for tinkering, wiring, plumbing, cutting, welding, etc. (or is that a ?)
No big deal to pay an A&P each year for the condition inspection.

 

[TCABM]

…No big deal to pay an A&P each year for the condition inspection.

Like all mx relationships, find the A&P first.

 

[Lndwarrior]

I built mine. It's true, I could have bought a flying version for less what it cost me to build mine (and that's not counting thousands of labor, research, and parts ordering hours).

Also, I very quickly learned I was a flyer, not a builder. Except for the occasional sense of accomplishment I did not enjoy any part of the build.

I did this because I did not have the cash to buy a flying plane and was not going to get a loan to buy one. The fact that I was able to spread the cost out over a number of years was the only way I was going to be able to own my own airplane.

My plane (Zenith Ch 601 XL) probably cost me about $45K, all in, for a light sport aircraft that I have flown coast to coast and back. And a lot of other adventures. It has a basic panel and I got a good deal on a partially built kit, and a better deal on a used lycoming O-235.

There are many ways to keep the over-all cost down. On the other hand, if you want a show-stopper RV with an all-glass IFR panel the top end of the cost range is probably $200K.

The one, and probably only thing, I like about building my own plane is that I know when my wife gets in the plane that every rivet, bolt, wire, instrument, control cabling, and engine component is in near perfect condition. I know everything there is to know about my plane and how, and where, issues can arrive. If I auger in some day it won't be from some hidden electrical problem, worn out part, or other age or install-related issue.

I am a worrier when it comes to flying and the feeling I get every time I climb into the cockpit is that I KNOW every little detail in my plane is as right as it can be.

It seems strange to me now that I spent 20 years flying certificated aircraft and never looked under the cowl, or behind the panel, or into the wing structure. That kind of blind faith in the manufacturer, or the mechanic, seems sorely misplaced now, especially considering the possible impact of a failure. Also, I now have looked under the cowl of a lot of older certificated aircraft and seen many things I would not accept in my "homebuilt".

 

[Brad W]

If you are looking to fly in the relatively near term buy. A used EAB is a great option and you can do all the maintenance, but not the annual condition inspection.

......No big deal to pay an A&P each year for the condition inspection.

Honestly, I don't have a philosophical issue with hiring out the inspection anyway.... with almost everything it's good to get another set of eyes on it once in a while....
so and I understand correctly that an EAB non-building owner can also do modifications in addition to maintenance?.... say I want to add an autopilot or do some other addition or modification?

Like all mx relationships, find the A&P first.

...and I have read that it can be hard to find an A&P that will work on experimental aircraft.... so that seems like a concern

..... The one, and probably only thing, I like about building my own plane is that I know when my wife gets in the plane that every rivet, bolt, wire, instrument, control cabling, and engine component is in near perfect condition. I know everything there is to know about my plane and how, and where, issues can arrive. If I auger in some day it won't be from some hidden electrical problem, worn out part, or other age or install-related issue.

I am a worrier when it comes to flying and the feeling I get every time I climb into the cockpit is that I KNOW every little detail in my plane is as right as it can be.

It seems strange to me now that I spent 20 years flying certificated aircraft and never looked under the cowl, or behind the panel, or into the wing structure. That kind of blind faith in the manufacturer, or the mechanic, seems sorely misplaced now, especially considering the possible impact of a failure. Also, I now have looked under the cowl of a lot of older certificated aircraft and seen many things I would not accept in my "homebuilt".

This makes me think of my previous cars and trucks.... I used to do just about everything....routine maint and major stuff too. I was keenly dialed in and when a rattle or something would start while driving down the road I'd often be able to diagnose the issue before I ever stopped rolling. As I've gotten older, and busier, and cars have gotten more complicated (and more reliable) I've lost all of that and in many ways, I'm no different than my wife driving her car now.... I do very little of my own work anymore and knock on wood the cars just keep rolling with very little attention.

I hear you though about not enjoying the build. I think I would enjoy most of it but surely not all of the process. I do like the idea of quickbuild kits in some ways, just to reduce some of the parts of the process that will drag on forever. One things for sure, I can't see myself building composite.... I hate working with sticky and messy....

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

so and I understand correctly that an EAB non-building owner can also do modifications in addition to maintenance?.... say I want to add an autopilot or do some other addition or modification?

Yes. Now, there is a distinction between major / minor - "Major" stuff means you have to go back to phase 1 testing - but exactly what is involved depends on what is written in your operating limitations which have changed over the years.I'll let you google the FAA operating limitations for experimental amateur built aircraft on account of what I am too lazy to do it myself.

 

[frfly172]

If you’re not a dedicated builder who enjoys the process,stick with something that’s flyable. If you decide to build I would hold off on the avionics till ready to install.avionics change so rapidly. If you know what engine you want ,you could purchase now as prices continue to rise. Good luck whatever your choice.

 

[Brad W]

I guess that's kinda the crux of what I was getting at originally...
I kinda look at it as three major purchases...really four

1) the kit or raw materials for the airframe​

2) the engine​

3) the avionics​

4) paint and other "stuff"​

so the avionics it seems by the input here, is that this is generally available with not so much lead time...so check one major expense that can be delayed

for #1, the airframe, it seems like some or perhaps most of these depending on the model... can be split up into sub-purchases and spread over some time...but mostly it seems that it might be split up only over a relatively short span of time...AND would have to be ordered significantly in advance... so if I think it's going to take 3 months to do the tail once I get it, and the wings would be next....
but the tail will be say a year out before I receive it....±3-4 months
and the wings will be say a year out before I receive it....±3-4 months
...then I pretty much need to order both kits pretty much at the same time
ditto the balance of the kits for the airframe.
so it seems to me the moral of the story is that at least for the manufacturers I've looked at, I might be able to spread out the orders for the airframe a little bit BUT I probably wouldn't be able to split it out over enough time for it to make sense to take the hit for separate shipments, etc...

for #2 the engine, I still haven't gotten a sense of lead time for a rotax...but generally it seems that the engine pretty much needs to be purchased right away...or in the case of a used engine, as soon as an opportunity is found....so not much room for spreading that expense out either....maybe

for #4, the paint is a down-the-road thing, but the "other stuff" filters in throughout the project, I'm guessing with the bulk of it happening when you get into the engine and avionics install so that one is delayed