Building Confidence - Gusty conditions

J

jdangel

Pre-Flight
Joined
Dec 1, 2007
Messages
87
Location
Massachusetts / 1b9
Display Name
Display name:
JeffInBoston
Got out to KBED (Bedford, MA - new england) on Sunday for the first time in over a month. Conditions were beautiful, a little on the windy side but looked like under 10 knots.

Got out to start the preflight though and could tell things were worse than that. Atis was saying 12 knots around 30 degrees off the runway. The gusts weren't reported, but you could feel it. Atis later reported 12 knots gusting to 17.

Being a fairly low time PP-ASEL(around 100 hours) I unfortunately folded and went inside despite the clear conditions.

I am at the stage where I know that getting some dual in these conditions would increase my confidence, but was curious about whether others who were fairly low time pilots have the same fears and wait like I do until a calm day to fly...

I quit 15 years ago after getting my ticket for similar reasons and don't want to do it again :(((( If anyone has stories to share that would be great of what you did after getting your ticket, specifically how you increased your skills and tolerance for less than perfect conditions.

I've had some dual recently after getting back in the cockpit after quitting for 15 years, but am at the stage where just building experience might be the way to go.
 
jdangel said:
If anyone has stories to share that would be great of what you did after getting your ticket, specifically how you increased your skills and tolerance for less than perfect conditions.
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Push your envelope, but only a little bit at a time and only in one area. If everything *but* the wind is OK, and you've done some 10G15 at 20 degrees off the runway and been OK with it, you should be OK at 12G17 30 degrees off the runway. The control inputs are the same, just with greater amplitude.

Always make sure you have plenty of outs (which is good in ANY situation). In this case, nearby airports with runways better aligned with the wind. Look at the wind patterns in the surrounding areas so you know which airports are likely to have less wind as well.

I remember one specific flight that helped define where the edge of my envelope was, in this case, visibility. It was reported 4-5 miles all over, and I hadn't been exposed to anything less than 6. I flew to airports I'd been to before, and in the area where I've lived my entire life and know it extremely well. What I found was that it just wasn't all that fun to fly when the vis was less than 5 miles. I did make it to both airports, and I had plenty of ways to find myself and get to the nearest airport if I got lost, so I never felt too unsafe. But, that's what made me realize where that edge of the envelope was, was seeing it. So, I got my instrument rating and when there's widespread visibility of 5 or less these days and I have to go somewhere, I'm going to file IFR.

One thing that may also help is to do as much as you can to make your schedule flexible. Mother Nature is notoriously uncooperative, so if you find that the right conditions to take the next step happen on a weekday, it'd be nice if you could bug out of work to go take advantage of them.
 
Kent has it right Jeff. Take small steps. My first flight in IMC was 30 miles my next was 500 ok not such a small step but you get the picture. And by all means the next gusty day grab your CFI and say lets work on those X-Winds. Chances are if its windy enough to want to go out and do X-Winds there will be cancellations and CFIs available.
 
baby steps is good, but you have to know your limits. Definitely goi out with a CFI when conditions are outside your abilities, but within the CFIs abilities.
 
Take small steps, but remember this.. you can always go around.. (and around and around) until it feels right to you. Even as a 1000hr+ pilot, I get in conditions that stretch my abilities and I just tell myself "I can always go around". It helps to know that,.. and to be ready to practice that.
 
Kent, Adam and Tony have excellent advice - but I sense you might be asking a question I continue to ask myself: when can I as PIC venture out into more challenging conditions, even w/o a CFI.

I got my license a little over 2 years ago, and have about 150 hours. However, I cancel for winds probably more than anything, and it's getting frustrating. It also limits my courage for longer XCs because I just don't know what the winds will be like at my destination.

I've started to depart my home airport with stronger winds if they are close to the runway heading, and then head to a nearby airport that I know is oriented in such a way as to give me some good x-wind practice.

The worst case scenario (OK maybe there are other really worse cases) is that I can't pull off a landing at that other airport, I do a go-around, and head back home to my home airport. On the other hand, if I pull off that first successful X-wind landing, I make a full stop, taxi back and do it again. Each landing builds the confidence even more than doing it with a trusty CFI next to me, because it proves to me that I can pull it off.

However, there are still days that I'll grab a CFI to expand the envelope even further, and that is also good reinforcement of technique and judgement.
 
tonycondon said:
baby steps is good, but you have to know your limits. Definitely goi out with a CFI when conditions are outside your abilities, but within the CFIs abilities.
Click to expand...
Or else you'll just scare the **** out of both of you.
 
You sound like you are in about the same boat that I am, and I probably would have stayed on the ground with those conditions, especially if they were cross wind conditions. You can always fly another time. It is nice to push the envelope sometimes, but you should pick your days.
 
Those kind of winds are not rare at all or even at that demanding. Any pilot not up to safely handling them should do just as you did, walk away, but then go get a lesson or a few and get back up to speed. Good call.

jdangel said:
Got out to KBED (Bedford, MA - new england) on Sunday for the first time in over a month. Conditions were beautiful, a little on the windy side but looked like under 10 knots.

Got out to start the preflight though and could tell things were worse than that. Atis was saying 12 knots around 30 degrees off the runway. The gusts weren't reported, but you could feel it. Atis later reported 12 knots gusting to 17.

Being a fairly low time PP-ASEL(around 100 hours) I unfortunately folded and went inside despite the clear conditions.

I am at the stage where I know that getting some dual in these conditions would increase my confidence, but was curious about whether others who were fairly low time pilots have the same fears and wait like I do until a calm day to fly...

I quit 15 years ago after getting my ticket for similar reasons and don't want to do it again :(((( If anyone has stories to share that would be great of what you did after getting your ticket, specifically how you increased your skills and tolerance for less than perfect conditions.

I've had some dual recently after getting back in the cockpit after quitting for 15 years, but am at the stage where just building experience might be the way to go.
Click to expand...
 
I second, third, fourth... what everyone is saying here. I consider myself a low-timer, so I'll chime in. You specifically asked about gusts, but I suspect your question falls into the same bucket as crosswind landings. Your mileage may vary, but here are my thoughts: (and corrections are certainly welcome)

On the calm wind days, Step 1 is to really focus on touching down at the right airspeed and on the centerline. A wise man once told me to make that a point of pride, no matter how much experience you have (thanks, Doug).

If you're reasonably consistent with that, it's time for step 2: Get a good picture in your mind of what a good crosswind landing looks like. Unless you're in an Ercoupe, a good crosswind landing will put the nose straight down the runway, with the wings "leaning" into the wind (i.e., a slip). In this configuration, you'll touch down first on the upwind main, with the other wheels following thereafter. If your instructor has never shown this to you, you might want to get some dual to see it for yourself, but after you see it a time or two, it's not difficult to start emulating it yourself in mild conditions.

A "eureka moment" for me was to realize that it's actually pretty hard to crank in TOO MUCH aileron when the first wheel touches down. I've never tried it, but I bet it's impossible to scrape that upwind wing on the ground if you've touched down at the appropriate speed (see step 1). So crank in the aileron and it'll help keep you planted after touchdown.

With a good grasp on those two concepts, it's no big deal to incrementally work up to higher winds. As for gusts, they just make you dance a little, but the control inputs are essentially the same.

At AMW, we have 60 degree crossing runways. I've built confidence by practicing landings on the crosswind runway (which also helps with radio communications and pattern etiquette, by the way), or going to a nearby field. 5 knots crosswind (even at 90 degrees) is barely different than a calm wind landing, so I sort of worked up from there. If you're doing it right, you'll find that the biggest defecit is in your confidence, rather than your ability.

By the way, another wise man told me that, contrary to popular belief, it's okay to slip a Cessna with the flaps down (thanks, Tony). Check your manual, but it probably says that slips w/flaps are not recommended. They're not prohibited. I'm told that the reason for the "not recommended" is a fairly benign oscillation that can occur if conditions are just right.

Hope this helps,

Matthew
 
Excellent advice from all as usual.

I agree with most that it is a bit lack of ability, but way more lack of confidence than anything else. I remember my checkride at KVNY during those weeks when the santa ana winds are howling and doing fine. It's more the practice doing it that it getting me down, including these brutal New England winters which can keep you out of the cockpit for weeks at a time.

My plan is to grab some dual in these conditions and just work at it... Good to hear from others, sounds like a common issue.

Jeff
 
foka4 said:
A "eureka moment" for me was to realize that it's actually pretty hard to crank in TOO MUCH aileron when the first wheel touches down. I've never tried it, but I bet it's impossible to scrape that upwind wing on the ground if you've touched down at the appropriate speed (see step 1). So crank in the aileron and it'll help keep you planted after touchdown.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I'm curious... Is there any benefit to cranking in full aileron immediately after touchdown? :dunno:

What I do is to keep whatever control pressure I needed at touchdown on the yoke. As the plane slows, I keep that same pressure applied. Touching down at ~60, I then have full aileron deflection at ~40 and keep the ailerons fully deflected for the remainder of the landing roll.

Now, I wonder... Is one technique or the other better (ie more likely to prevent skidding sideways on the runway)? What other techniques do people use?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
What I do is to keep whatever control pressure I needed at touchdown on the yoke. As the plane slows, I keep that same pressure applied.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess I should have been more clear. I don't immediately hit the stops with upwind aileron as soon as a wheel touches down, but early on I was a little apprehensive about overcontrolling, so I tended to undercontrol instead. When I finally figured out that a little too much aileron isn't problematic, my crosswind landings improved noticeably, because I was comfortable giving it whatever the conditions required.

I don't want to get off-topic, but it's probably also worth noting that I'm mostly focused on tailwheel technique, although that shouldn't make much difference in this context. My gauge of a good crosswind landing in the 140 is how much lateral "scrubbing" I allow to happen as the aircraft slows through that just-below-stall-speed regime. I've found that rolling along on the upwind main during this time (keeping the upwind wing low) is the best way to stay on the centerline. This requires a little more assertive aileron control, so I reach max deflection pretty quickly after touching down on that first wheel, usually before the second main and tw touch down. As I said, it's off topic, but I'd love to get other people's opinion on this aspect of xwind landings as well.
 
You shouldn't feel too bad about "chickening out"... sounds like you did a very good job of spotting a trend (noticed gusts were beginning before it was announced on ATIS, a sign that it could just get progressively worse), and made a conservative decision.

I can't recall offhand the first time I stretched my personal limits regarding xwinds or gusts on a solo flight as PIC, but I do recall several dual lessons where I got to have a go at winds similar to what you describe. Good confidence-builder.
Chances are you've done it on dual flights, too... so remember: like that first solo flight itself, if you can do it with the instructor aboard, you can do it yourself.

Only advice I'll offer about technique is that a go-around is always in order... even very experienced (and confident!) pilots often come to grief because they try to salvage what is obviously a bad approach or flare.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hmmm. I'm curious... Is there any benefit to cranking in full aileron immediately after touchdown? :dunno:
Click to expand...
I was taught that once you are on the ground bring it to the full deflection position as you slow. Not immediately.

That seems to make sense too. If you throw over the yoke right away it would be possible immediately after touch down to accidentally go up on one wheel.
 
FWIW choosing not to fly based on the conditions will never be a bad decision. Unless you get in a car crash instead.

12G17 at 30 degrees is 06G09 crosswind component, it sounds worse before you do the math.

IF you had decided to go without a CFI, know where you will go to land with the winds aligned down the runway. At the home drome winds along 16-34 are a 60 degree crosswind with choice of coming from the right or left.

But I have a couple of 18-36s within 20 miles or so.
 
smigaldi said:
I was taught that once you are on the ground bring it to the full deflection position as you slow. Not immediately.

That seems to make sense too. If you throw over the yoke right away it would be possible immediately after touch down to accidentally go up on one wheel.
Click to expand...

Yep. It may sound facetious, but I like to say "if you're thinking about it, you're doing it wrong", when it comes to x-wind landings (or takeoffs, or taxiing). There's no formula for success, IMHO... no table one can refer to (except for xwind component limits).
Equally facetious, but also true:
Q: "How much (rudder, aileron)?"
A: "Enough."

:D
 
One solution would be to walk inside the FBO and find a CFI who had some time available. It's not unlikely that, when the winds are stirring, they've had a cancellation or two.

You really don't learn until you stretch. The trick is knowing what is a stretch, and what is a stretch too far. You will be surprised just how much stretch you can handle when you have too. Wings into the wind, rudder to keep pointed down the runway, keep a little airspeed in for the gust. What's so hard about that???? :)

Try to chase down a CFI when the winds are really blowing -- I didn't get over my fear of xwinds until my hand was forced in a blowing snowstorm (with a highly experienced CFI) flying into Telluride. After that, your garden variety 15kt xwind is cake.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top