Bring on the stupid...

denverpilot

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
That is an unfortunate way to die...

With that said, I can name many pilots who lost their lives doing everything the right way so we really shouldn't judge others. People die doing everything the right way and the wrong way so the best thing we can do is learn without judging and move on.


My two cents!
 
FloridaPilot said:
That is an unfortunate way to die...

With that said, I can name many pilots who lost their lives doing everything the right way so we really shouldn't judge others. People die doing everything the right way and the wrong way so the best thing we can do is learn without judging and move on.


My two cents!
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How are you going to learn without judging? In order to learn anything useful, you have to know what to do and what not to do, which requires that you employ judgment about what's right and what's wrong. If you're afraid to employ judgment, you are stacking the odds against your ability to safely operate an aircraft.

It's true that some have died doing all the right things, but that's not the case in most aviation accidents. Rather than make excuses, pilots need to recognize the mistakes, analyze the causes of those mistakes, and employ methods to reduce or eliminate the risk of repetition.


JKG
 
FloridaPilot said:
That is an unfortunate way to die...

With that said, I can name many pilots who lost their lives doing everything the right way so we really shouldn't judge others. People die doing everything the right way and the wrong way so the best thing we can do is learn without judging and move on.


My two cents!
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I respectfully disagree. If you die doing everything right, it was just your time. If you die being stupid and take 2 other people with you, you deserve to be judged. If there is ever an NTSB report like this with my name attached, I fully expect everyone to judge me and would be disappointed if they didn't. To not judge is to say that being stoned had no effect, and that it's ok, which it isn't.
 
StinkBug said:
I respectfully disagree. If you die doing everything right, it was just your time. If you die being stupid and take 2 other people with you, you deserve to be judged. If there is ever an NTSB report like this with my name attached, I fully expect everyone to judge me and would be disappointed if they didn't. To not judge is to say that being stoned had no effect, and that it's ok, which it isn't.
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+1......
 
Jerry Spring mode....hand clap with every syllable and shout over everyone "YOU NEED TO STOP JUDGING ME"
 
'Nobody ever died of smoking pot' they said. 'It is safer than alcohol and cigarettes' they said....
 
FloridaPilot said:
That is an unfortunate way to die...

With that said, I can name many pilots who lost their lives doing everything the right way so we really shouldn't judge others. People die doing everything the right way and the wrong way so the best thing we can do is learn without judging and move on.


My two cents!
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Yeah, but this guy did everything wrong. Pothead + doing anything of importance = failure. As if it needs to be said.
 
MadseasoN said:
Yeah, but this guy did everything wrong. Pothead + doing anything of importance = failure. As if it needs to be said.
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Yup...

Gravity sorts out the idiots REAL quick.. As in this case... I would say he took out two innocent people, but my guess is if they had done tox tests on them, they would have had THC in their systems too....
 
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JGoodish said:
How are you going to learn without judging? In order to learn anything useful, you have to know what to do and what not to do, which requires that you employ judgment about what's right and what's wrong. If you're afraid to employ judgment, you are stacking the odds against your ability to safely operate an aircraft.

It's true that some have died doing all the right things, but that's not the case in most aviation accidents. Rather than make excuses, pilots need to recognize the mistakes, analyze the causes of those mistakes, and employ methods to reduce or eliminate the risk of repetition.


JKG
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This.

In law enforcement we often watch training videos or talk about critical incidents where another LEO and/or civilians died. It is not to be morbid or speak poorly of the departed. It is because the real tragedy would be to have an opportunity to prevent a repeat of the mistakes, fail to take advantage out of fear of offending someone, and repeating the mistakes. You can't bring anyone back, but you can ensure they didn't die in vain by using their death to learn and be safer.
 
JGoodish said:
How are you going to learn without judging? JKG
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Easy!

Spare the name calling and try to figure out what happened which in this case it's quite obvious. I personally don't do anything that was mentioned but I'm not going to call this person names because I don't do those things. All too often we call people names and we don't even know them.

Admittedly, what this person did was unfortunate but I cannot sit here and call someone "Stupid" and EVERYONE, (If you want to admit it or not) made stupid mistakes in the past it's one of the ways we learn.

My whole point is: respectfully, lets leave the name calling out and learn from the mistakes instead!

My two cents!
 
StinkBug said:
I respectfully disagree. If you die doing everything right, it was just your time. If you die being stupid and take 2 other people with you, you deserve to be judged. If there is ever an NTSB report like this with my name attached, I fully expect everyone to judge me and would be disappointed if they didn't. To not judge is to say that being stoned had no effect, and that it's ok, which it isn't.
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As I grow older I realize that just because I took a certain way in life doesn't mean it's the right way or the only way. I don't know if you have read the report or not but he had back problems. Also with the passing of Amendment 64 in the state of Colorado adults 21 and over can legally posses marijuana. It's possible that he could've been using it for his back pain? I'm not sure but there isn't any evidence to support the label: "Stoner".
 
FloridaPilot said:
That is an unfortunate way to die...

With that said, I can name many pilots who lost their lives doing everything the right way so we really shouldn't judge others. People die doing everything the right way and the wrong way so the best thing we can do is learn without judging and move on.


My two cents!
Click to expand...
There is no comparison. Not much to learn from this one. Follow the rules and your chances of surviving manned flight are considerably higher.
 
FloridaPilot said:
As I grow older I realize that just because I took a certain way in life doesn't mean it's the right way or the only way. I don't know if you have read the report or not but he had back problems. Also with the passing of Amendment 64 in the state of Colorado adults 21 and over can legally posses marijuana. It's possible that he could've been using it for his back pain? I'm not sure but there isn't any evidence to support the label: "Stoner".
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Legal possession of a drug doesn't matter. You can legally possess alcohol as well. Doesn't mean you can legally fly an airplane after using it, however.
 
This pilot failed the pre-flight check on himself. He chose to fly under the influence of a drug, whether his use of it was legal or not. Like flying while taking cold medicine or pain pills . . . What does the 'M' in IM SAFE stand for again?

Just as safe as alcohol? Marijuana is only legal in a few places, and the FARs have not had the years needed to issue detailed requirements like has been done for alcohol. That still doesn't mean it's okay to toke up and go flying. Drinking has both blood alcohol and time limits . . .
 
Fearless Tower said:
Legal possession of a drug doesn't matter. You can legally possess alcohol as well. Doesn't mean you can legally fly an airplane after using it, however.
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Right, the accident report stated that there was still evidence in his lungs which indicated recent use, a little different than simply being in possession. It would be like going flying with a high BAC.

Liver unsuitable for analysis of Tetrahydrocannabinol (Marihuana)
0.3474 (ug/ml, ug/g) Tetrahydrocannabinol (Marihuana) detected in Lung
0.0039 (ug/ml, ug/g) Tetrahydrocannabinol (Marihuana) detected in Blood (Cavity)
0.0628 (ug/ml, ug/g) Tetrahydrocannabinol Carboxylic Acid (Marihuana) detected in Liver
0.017 (ug/ml, ug/g) Tetrahydrocannabinol Carboxylic Acid (Marihuana) detected in Lung
0.0096 (ug/ml, ug/g) Tetrahydrocannabinol Carboxylic Acid (Marihuana) detected in Blood (Cavity)

The specimens were not obtained from sources which could accurately determine the pilot's pre-mortem blood levels of the detected substances. The levels detected in the lungs suggest recent use, but an accurate time frame could not be determined.
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weilke said:
His mistake was that he did something stupid.
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That may be true, but it's a distraction.

It's real easy to dismiss an accident because that guy did something real stupid. If only stupid people crashed, that might be sensible. But real life is different.

The first hint that something might not be as it appears in its entirety was the combination of engine controls and readings. 16.5 inches is barely above idle, not full throttle like the throttle position shows. Yes, even at 8000 feet. (it should be around 20 inches). If both are correct AND the engine is in good mechanical condition, I'd strongly suspect carb or induction ice, or some other transient blockage. But I think it's as likely that the levers all got moved forward by the force of the impact, or quite possibly something hitting them during the impact. Pipers have mixture LEVERS not verniers like Cessnas, and they are much easier to move.

Flying under the influence of THC does qualify as stupid, but is it really more stupid than flying fatigued? Maybe, but if we write it off as some dumb pothead, we learn nothing.
 
weilke said:
'Nobody ever died of smoking pot' they said. 'It is safer than alcohol and cigarettes' they said....
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You're right, I guess we should make it illegal again so that nobody will use it. That was clearly working well.

Meanwhile, how many people died from lung cancer, liver cancer, and DUI accidents yesterday alone?
 
dukeblue219 said:
You're right, I guess we should make it illegal again so that nobody will use it. That was clearly working well.

Meanwhile, how many people died from lung cancer, liver cancer, and DUI accidents yesterday alone?
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The dangers of alcohol and flying are well known. The danger of smoking and flying is not zero. It affects night vision and can substantially worsen hypoxia. The first symptom of hypoxia is extreme stupidity….

I'll submit that that comparison cannot be made at this time. There is no doubt pot is a stupid thing to use while or before flying, but that's as far as you can go. It might really be safer than other unsafe things, especially alcohol. But it's a useless comparison.
 
MAKG1 said:
The first hint that something might not be as it appears in its entirety was the combination of engine controls and readings. 16.5 inches is barely above idle, not full throttle like the throttle position shows. Yes, even at 8000 feet. (it should be around 20 inches). If both are correct AND the engine is in good mechanical condition, I'd strongly suspect carb or induction ice, or some other transient blockage. But I think it's as likely that the levers all got moved forward by the force of the impact, or quite possibly something hitting them during the impact. Pipers have mixture LEVERS not verniers like Cessnas, and they are much easier to move.
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But the report also indicated that there might not have been much fuel onboard.

MAKG1 said:
Flying under the influence of THC does qualify as stupid, but is it really more stupid than flying fatigued? Maybe, but if we write it off as some dumb pothead, we learn nothing.
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Many pilots who are not smoking pot run out of fuel, but the pot could have been a contributing factor. I'm not sure anyone is saying it was the only factor.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flying under the influence of THC does qualify as stupid, but is it really more stupid than flying fatigued? Maybe, but if we write it off as some dumb pothead, we learn nothing.
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:yes::yes::yes::yes:
 
Fearless Tower said:
There is no comparison. Not much to learn from this one. Follow the rules and your chances of surviving manned flight are considerably higher.
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Yes, that is true!

But my whole point is I'm not going to call someone "Stupid" when I just got in a car after closing the bar down. When the name calling happens people tend to not examine the accident properly.

(For the record this is not intended for anyone, I'm speaking in generalities)
 
FloridaPilot said:
.... people tend to not examine the accident properly. (For the record this is not intended for anyone, I'm speaking in generalities)
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We don't need to examine it, NTSB did and my take away is; Don't fly around low in the mountains, stoned or otherwise.
 
dukeblue219 said:
You're right, I guess we should make it illegal again so that nobody will use it. That was clearly working well.

Meanwhile, how many people died from lung cancer, liver cancer, and DUI accidents yesterday alone?
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Dont get me wrong, I am all for legalizing it (along with heroin, cocaine and meth). The societal cost of prohibition is higher than the damage increased useage with legalization would bring.

What I detest is the attempt by the potheads to convince everyone that the stuff is harmless and good for you.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flying under the influence of THC does qualify as stupid, but is it really more stupid than flying fatigued? Maybe, but if we write it off as some dumb pothead, we learn nothing.
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There are very few accidents that allow us to learn anything. This one is not one of them.
 
weilke said:
There are very few accidents that allow us to learn anything. This one is not one of them.
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Then, there is no point in discussing it.

For the record, I disagree. You can learn something from just about any accident, though it can get repetitive. With this one, I think we can learn about the dangers of flying at 500 AGL. But only if we do away with the silly judgments. Lots of good people run into trouble at 500 AGL without any drugs being involved.
 
OkieAviator said:
We don't need to examine it, NTSB did and my take away is; Don't fly around low in the mountains, stoned or otherwise.
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Hmmm, some mountain flight training includes flying very low, within one wingspan...
 
MAKG1 said:
Then, there is no point in discussing it.

For the record, I disagree. You can learn something from just about any accident, though it can get repetitive. With this one, I think we can learn about the dangers of flying at 500 AGL. But only if we do away with the silly judgments. Lots of good people run into trouble at 500 AGL without any drugs being involved.
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+1 :yes:
 
OkieAviator said:
Why would you need to fly around that low? Cow searching?
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upslope flow lift when climbing out of a valley, descending into a valley once past a ridgeline are the two places where an instructor had me that low...cow flights/wildlife flights are in the 200 to 300 ft AGL range from what I've seen although lower is required when they're tagging animals
 
Everskyward said:
Right, the accident report stated that there was still evidence in his lungs which indicated recent use, a little different than simply being in possession. It would be like going flying with a high BAC.
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I'm afraid that with the proliferation of "Medical Marihuana" laws (personally , I think this is an oxymoron), we will see this type of thing more often. In all sorts of circumstances (eg. auto, motorcycle, trains, trucks etc).

Cheers
 
ralarcon said:
I'm afraid that with the proliferation of "Medical Marihuana" laws (personally , I think this is an oxymoron), we will see this type of thing more often. In all sorts of circumstances (eg. auto, motorcycle, trains, trucks etc).

Cheers
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I disagree. There have been various drugs found during autopsy in pilots for years. Just because something is legal or prescribed doesn't mean you should fly while actively taking it. The same goes for alcohol. It also doesn't mean the the drug was THE cause, although it can be speculated that it might have been a contributing factor.
 
Lesson I see is that you can be the pilot or the observer not both. More than one recon flight has ended badly when folks forget this.

And MJ was a factor. How much we'll never know. If he was using for back pain, his tolerance may have been very high (npi). Cops are still trying to figure how to quantitatively measure driving stoned.
 
ejensen said:
[...]And MJ was a factor.
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No, no, no. It was "MH" according to the report :lol:
Lesson learned: Lay off the Mark Hamill before going on high-altitude bovine adventures.
 
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