Brand New Guy with a (maybe) Stupid Question

F

FLTRI

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
4
Display Name
Display name:
FLTRI
So, I'm in my early 50's and I don't know how to fly. Retirement is eight months away, and I'm seriously considering taking lessons, and getting my pilots license. Not too crazy, right?

Here's the crazy (stupid question) part. I was at a local civil aviation airport for a car show about two months ago, and saw a Beechcraft D-17 Staggerwing in a hangar. Absolutely stunning airplane. I came home and did all the Googling I could on it, and even searched for ones that are for sale.

The more I read, the more it sounds like something that would actually work. They can be had for $150,000 to $200,000 Not really that much more than a Cessna or more modern Beech that I can fly five deep in.

So (flame suit on) tell me why this is an incredibly bad idea, or talk me into it.
 
Take a few lesson first in a regular spam can to make sure flying is something you really want to pursue. If it is, buy the plane, learn in it, and enjoy your life.
 
I can't speak much about the plane itself, but if ur thinking of taking lessons, get to it! if you're in decent health (research 3rd class medical) and don't see any issues passing that, then just do it.
 
The staggerwing is the most gorgeous civilian airplane ever made, in my opinion. The downsides: its old, they go through gas fairly quickly, its a radial engine, and its big. All this comes down to is your gonna need to find a mechanic who will work on an 80 year old airplane and who knows how to work on radial engines, in addition to that it will take a large hangar and won't be cheap to fly.

150-200 grand is pretty pricey considering most people rent or buy a 30 year old 172 for less than 40 grand.

If you have the means, I would envy you for a very long time.
 
Welcome to the board. Take some lessons in a trainer type airplane. The beech is a collectors piece, needs to be kept in a hangar,also it's a tail wheel which will require more training . If you like flying get your license . Then look for a plane you like.
 
Not a bad idea at all, a far better purchase than all the chase the joneses types who buy Cirrus.

I'd do all your initial training in a smaller taildragger like a 7ECA or J3 etc, it'll help tons both for required skills and insurance.

FYI those older planes are built like tanks and dirt simple, do owner assist annuals and I doubt it'll cost you too much, any AP that won't work on a straight forward 40s plane isn't a AP you'd want to use anyways.
 
Last edited:
The Staggerwing is a beauty. But you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Might be best to work your way up to it.

But if you can afford the airplane and its associated costs, you can also afford someone to fly you around in it until you can do it yourself.
 
What everyone else said about the Staggerwing.

Training can be hard on an airplane. Make your early mistakes on someone else's.
 
Matthew said:
The Staggerwing is a beauty. But you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Might be best to work your way up to it.

But if you can afford the airplane and its associated costs, you can also afford someone to fly you around in it until you can do it yourself.
Click to expand...

If he got his PPL in a smaller Tailwheel I don't think the transition would be a anything significant.

I'd say a 7ECA type to a staggerwing would be about the same as a 172/PA28 to a Bo.

Thing is if you want to end up in a Tailwheel learn from the ghetgo in a Tailwheel.


Besides 180kts with a 40kt stall speed, 1700lb useful load, burning 23GPH or so at 70%, with out crazy electrical or other complicated systems, not some new plastic POS which will depreciate, AWSOME ramp appeal and interior space, sounds like a good deal to me :dunno:
 
Last edited:
Take a discovery flight before you think about going right into training. You'll either love it or hate it. After that make sure you can pass your medical so schedule a consultation with an AME. Welcome to PoA!
 
Old Geek said:
What everyone else said about the Staggerwing.

Training can be hard on an airplane. Make your early mistakes on someone else's.
Click to expand...

This! You will not want to "bang up" a beauty like a staggerwing by training in it. Definitely learn to fly and grab a staggerwing when you are ready.
 
FLTRI said:
So (flame suit on) tell me why this is an incredibly bad idea, or talk me into it.
Click to expand...
It's not an incredibly bad idea eventually, but a historic, fabric-covered tube-steel frame airplane is a substantially greater ownership undertaking than a more modern aluminum-skinned semimonocoque design like the Beeches, Cessnas and Pipers about which you may be thinking. I strongly recommend something very ordinary in its construction and maintenance for a first ownership experience. Further, insurance companies are very skittish about low-time pilots in a tailwheel retractable gear airplane.

So, my thinking (based on over 40 years of aircraft ownership experience, both individually and as a flying club officer) would be to learn to fly in something more common, get your license, buy something like that, and then after a couple of years of ownership, get some training and time in tailwheel/retractable airplanes, and only then start thinking about owning a more out-of-the-ordinary airplane.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's not an incredibly bad idea eventually, but a historic, fabric-covered tube-steel frame airplane is a substantially greater ownership undertaking than a more modern aluminum-skinned semimonocoque design like the Beeches, Cessnas and Pipers about which you may be thinking. I strongly recommend something very ordinary in its construction and maintenance for a first ownership experience. Further, insurance companies are very skittish about low-time pilots in a tailwheel retractable gear airplane.

So, my thinking (based on over 40 years of aircraft ownership experience, both individually and as a flying club officer) would be to learn to fly in something more common, get your license, buy something like that, and then after a couple of years of ownership, get some training and time in tailwheel/retractable airplanes, and only then start thinking about owning a more out-of-the-ordinary airplane.
Click to expand...

Wrong times two.

One, as someone who has owned rag wing planes and made a living flying rag wings, upkeep isn't a issue on a plane with a newer modern system fabric job, any rag wing that's worth over 100k should have very good fabric, any AP should be able to tell very quickly just by the log book alone.

Two, if you want to fly a Tailwheel plane, learning how to fly in a more conventional 172 or PA28 is a DUMB idea, everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Learn to fly from the start in a Tailwheel.

I've trained students 0 - commercial in tail wheels planes, building your foundation in Tailwheel is ALWAYS better, especially if your first plane is going to be a staggerwing, which BTW ain't some fire breathing dragon, it'd be a easy transition for you if you start in a tailwheel.
 
Last edited:
Start in a tailwheel - but probably not the Staggerwing.

It's real easy to learn to fly in something like a Cessna 120 or similar (based on my experience), but if you start out with a nosewheel and have to make the transition, it appears to be difficult for most (based on my observations) - probably some un-learning involved. Making the transition from a tailwheel to a nosewheel is pretty trivial (based on my experience).
 
Don't know if the full scale flies like my 1/4 scale RC one does (did) - but the RC Staggerwing flew substantially different than any of my other GS Biplanes :)
 
Do it! But before you do, educate yourself. I fly a "restored" 1929 airplane currently, restored in 2002 by Rare Aircraft, one of the best in the business. I think there is some learning on your part, and besides, I think the cabin Wacos are a better choice for a lot of reasons. But the engine most common in the B17 is the P&W 450 which is well supported.

I learned to fly in a T-28A with 800HP, so I don't see the spam can as all that necessary to start. Radial engine biplanes are a visibility challenge, and no, they don't compare with flat engine taildraggers directly in terms of what it takes to fly them. 500 hours in the Citabria helped me greatly to take on the Waco YMF; that plus 200 hours in the YMF were just barely enough to get me started on the Waco ATO. Find someone that knows the 17 and can tell you the reality of it. The rest is neighborhood gossip. Airplanes of the era are radically different from each other and the Waco SRE with the P&W 450 is probably way different (also a lot more expensive and rare).

The big thing on any antique is who rebuilt it and when, with follow on maintenance important as well. Maintenance cost is NOT that much different on a WELL RESTORED antique, with a well supported engine at a reasonably knowledgeable and caring shop. There are a lot of round engines that are not for the faint of heart. P&W 985/450 is not one, it is well supported. An overhaul on the Jacobs in my airplanes would cost me about half what the overhaul on the TSIO 360 in my Mooney cost me several years ago.

Having said all that, insurance will be a potential sticking point. The 17 has retractable gear. Join the National Waco Club, or at least go look at the pictures. All fixed gear :yes: The reunion at the end of June is a mind blowing experience with some of the most gorgeous restorations you will ever see. Oshkosh Grand Champion (2013) and at least one other cabin that I think is even nicer. But I'm an open guy.

Ernie
 
Maybe you'd like to start with something a little more modern, say a Cessna 195?
 
I understand what your thinking but honestly you are paying a substantial premium just to own a Staggerwing and it's going to come with many of the vices previously mentioned.

Now if you've really got that kind of money you could buy a nice Stearman and a decent F33 Bonanza or a Super Cub and a Mooney or... the possibilities are endless.

Airplanes are like boats, they can do one mission really great or a variety of missions kind of meh... The Staggerwing is a beauty for sure but are you gonna dress up like Howard Hughes or are you gonna use it?
 
FLTRI said:
So, I'm in my early 50's and I don't know how to fly. Retirement is eight months away, and I'm seriously considering taking lessons, and getting my pilots license. Not too crazy, right?

Here's the crazy (stupid question) part. I was at a local civil aviation airport for a car show about two months ago, and saw a Beechcraft D-17 Staggerwing in a hangar. Absolutely stunning airplane. I came home and did all the Googling I could on it, and even searched for ones that are for sale.

The more I read, the more it sounds like something that would actually work. They can be had for $150,000 to $200,000 Not really that much more than a Cessna or more modern Beech that I can fly five deep in.

So (flame suit on) tell me why this is an incredibly bad idea, or talk me into it.
Click to expand...

Where are you? There is a beautiful yellow Staggerwing at North Las Vegas NV.
They do tourist rides, no real training, but the ride involves a through preflight and some hands on. Not just a "ride".

Take a ride in one, decide for yourself. Get as much initial training as you can in tailwheel. It sounds that if you are retiring at 50, you are set to live life and do what you want.

Welcome to POA.
 
Welcome to POA.

So many good points in this thread hard to say any thing different.

I would look for a flight school that has tail wheel aircraft. Learn in there planes. It took me 50 hours to get my PPL. 4 states and 6 instructors later, work moved me around, but I kept at it.

I enjoy working on my plane almost as much as I like flying it.

Enjoy retirement
 
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome, and thoughtful advise. Couple of clarifications, I should have been more thorough in my intro, and initial question.

I don't have intent in buying a Staggerwing, and then learning how to fly it. If I do go on this journey, the first step would to learn, and get licensed on something else. After that, I'd likely rent for a year or so to hone my skills, and get a lot more comfortable at the controls. The medical shouldn't be an issue, I'm in excellent health and have to pass an annual physical that includes a stress EKG for work. Great advise on learning in a tail dragger rather than tricycle gear, makes perfect sense. I also wouldn't want to beat up something so rare and beautiful, while learning the ropes.

I guess what I was really asking was, "Does a Staggering make sense to own, as a general aviation aircraft?" I was concerned about things like excessive fuel consumption, maintenance on the radial, the cloth skin, the wood frame, or something that makes this plane more of a museum piece, and not an aircraft that is even close to being practical to actually fly. Maybe it is just too hard to fly in general, and only meant for someone that has 10,000 hours under their belt. Maybe 80 year old parts are nonexistent, or grossly overpriced if you can find them. Maybe this aircraft is best left parked, and admired as art, rather than being flown around by a knucklehead like me...

It seems, from what most are saying, that these concerns are not too big of obstacles to overcome.

As far as the cost, well, I'm a long ways from being able to stroll into the imaginary Beechcraft Store, picking a color, and writing a check. But, I'm not broke, either. My wife & I never had children, so there's no college to pay for. I'm looking at it this way. Folks retire and buy a great big ole' diesel pusher motorhome (some that cost as much as this plane) and tour the country. Cool for them, but that's not for me. I could make the nut on a pretty good sized down payment, and likely finance the rest. A hangar, maintenance, fuel, insurance, etc... That is the variable to be sure. In 20 years I can sell it, likely at a profit, and move on to something more sedate. I'd never really own it anyway, I'd just be the caretaker until the next pilot takes it over...

I can see myself and my wife (and occasionally a couple friends) getting on the plane, and taking off for a week or so, and landing in a different town to explore. I do live in Las Vegas, and we are basically an island in the middle of the desert. I ride (motorcycles, ergo my screen name) and it's basically 300 miles to anywhere. I've seen all of the 300 mile places a hundred times, we need to get further away for more adventures. A plane would solve that issue, and I wouldn't have to get groped by TSA every time I leave town. And yes, I may even dress up as Howard Hughes on occasion. ;)

Thanks again for the advise. Keep the ideas coming, even if it's not what I want to hear.

Here's the yellow one I fell in love with, same one that BillTIZ was talking about, I'm sure. I took dozens of pictures of it. I didn't know it was available for rides, but I'm going to hunt down the owner and talk his ears off. Can't wait for a flight, and his opinions on it.



 
Matthew said:
The Staggerwing is a beauty. But you need to learn how to walk before you can run. Might be best to work your way up to it.

But if you can afford the airplane and its associated costs, you can also afford someone to fly you around in it until you can do it yourself.
Click to expand...

James331 said:
If he got his PPL in a smaller Tailwheel I don't think the transition would be a anything significant.

I'd say a 7ECA type to a staggerwing would be about the same as a 172/PA28 to a Bo.

Thing is if you want to end up in a Tailwheel learn from the ghetgo in a Tailwheel.

......
Click to expand...


I like all of the above advice.

As for the rest of your questions, I say go for it. You are anything but to old to learn to fly. If you love it do it you will not regret it. Also, welcome to Pilots of America!
 
You could learn in a Staggerwing it is possible, but I would recommend taking a few lessons in say a 172 or piper to get started out and learn the basics. Once you do that you could then do a transition into a Staggerwing, however it's not very common nowadays, but it is possible!
 
Buy a 150hp Piper Pacer and learn how to fly in it. A nice one can be had for under $35,000. Now the hard part. You need to find a really good competent instructor with a LOT of tailwheel time in a variety of airplanes not some guy that is an instructor with a fresh tailwheel endorsement. Fly the Pacer 100hrs or so (you will probably get what you paid for it) and you will be ready for a Staggerwing. Don't listen to the BS about how hard a Staggerwing is to fly from guys who have never flown one. They are really nice flying and very docile. They are no harder to keep straight on landing that the Pacer. Again pay the money for a highly qualified instructor. Enjoy the pride of ownership of a beautiful airplane and keep a rag handy to wipe off all the drool from envious pilots. Don
 
Where'd he go! We scared him so bad. Maybe he's negotiating on a -17 as we speak.

Anyway, I'll chime in. Buy a Piper Pacer or a Luscombe 8E or 8F. The Pacer would be best, but the Luscombe will work. Don't start on a Stinson or other TW that is a ***** cat to land, you want something of a challenge to keep you awake on the ground. Get your PPL, and drive that around the sky in various conditions for a year. Then, and only then transition to the Staggerwing of your dreams. Trust me, you want those 2-300 hours in a Pacer under your belt around the country before you climb in a Staggerwing.

Once you do, get tons of transition training from a competent CFI with Staggerwing time. Lots of ponies compared to the Pacer, and TW plus ponies can be -- interesting. I would say before you solo the Staggerwing you should have 350 hours total, almost all of it in TW planes, and at least 25 in the Staggerwing of your choice.

It's been mentioned, but each plane is built a little different, and handles a little different. They were hand built to start with, and most of them have been ground looped once or twice, and tweaked and rebuilt, or restored. They all will handle just a little different and when you're a noob pilot, that small handling difference can be just enough to be costly.

Forget about anything with a nose gear. Don't even bother to sit in a Cessna 172 or the like. Your air work will be the same as a TW plane, but the ground work will suffer. I started in a Taylorcraft, and moved to the Citabria. Glad I did it that way too.
 
FastEddieB said:
Just wondering...

...will there be a follow-up post? :dunno:

If not, I'll just keep my powder dry.
Click to expand...

The follow-up post ended up in moderation because there was a link to a photo and it was only the member's second post. See post #22. I have approved it.

To the OP. Welcome to POA! The site is set up so that brand new users cannot post links or attachments. We do this in order to cut down on spam. After you have posted a few (5?) time you will be able to this automatically.
 
Back when I was chomping at the bit to get my PPL, I kept doing the math on how little time it would take to fly my L39 jet from coast to coast, with an occasional jaunt in to Europe. And I fly an, um.... Arrow now, so.........

Just something to think about. You're pushing the cart before the horse. Get your ticket, and it doesn't really matter what you learn in, fly a few different planes afterwards to get the experience, and then you may find that you might change your mind on what the ideal aircraft is for your purpose. If you're still bent on a Staggerwing, so be it. But maybe you might like something like a Cessna 195 better and slightly more affordable.
 
Considering all the previous posts, I don't think I have anything worthwhile to add. I just wanted to say how freakin' awesome Staggerwings are. One of the finest looking aircraft ever built in my opinion. Definitely go for the PPL, and I hope you make it to the Staggerwing. Welcome, and good luck, sir.
 
docmirror said:
Where'd he go! We scared him so bad. Maybe he's negotiating on a -17 as we speak.

Anyway, I'll chime in. Buy a Piper Pacer or a Luscombe 8E or 8F. The Pacer would be best, but the Luscombe will work. Don't start on a Stinson or other TW that is a ***** cat to land, you want something of a challenge to keep you awake on the ground. Get your PPL, and drive that around the sky in various conditions for a year. Then, and only then transition to the Staggerwing of your dreams. Trust me, you want those 2-300 hours in a Pacer under your belt around the country before you climb in a Staggerwing.

Once you do, get tons of transition training from a competent CFI with Staggerwing time. Lots of ponies compared to the Pacer, and TW plus ponies can be -- interesting. I would say before you solo the Staggerwing you should have 350 hours total, almost all of it in TW planes, and at least 25 in the Staggerwing of your choice.

It's been mentioned, but each plane is built a little different, and handles a little different. They were hand built to start with, and most of them have been ground looped once or twice, and tweaked and rebuilt, or restored. They all will handle just a little different and when you're a noob pilot, that small handling difference can be just enough to be costly.

Forget about anything with a nose gear. Don't even bother to sit in a Cessna 172 or the like. Your air work will be the same as a TW plane, but the ground work will suffer. I started in a Taylorcraft, and moved to the Citabria. Glad I did it that way too.
Click to expand...


I soloed my SNJ with less than 200hrs tt and a 10 hr check out. I had 80 hrs of tailwheel time in Great Lakes, Decathalon, Citabria and Stearman. I had great instructors and that made the difference. A friend of mine bought a Pacer and did all of his training in it. He had no problem at all in the N3N. Again he had a great primary instructor. Don
 
Definitely take a few lessons in a trainer like a Cessna 172 or Citabria taildragger. Love the Staggerwing myself but you want to perfect your landings on a trainer and not on a beauty like this.
 
A nice Staggerwing that has been maintained and hangared won't require any more maintenance that any other GA retractable. The 450 Pratt is bulletproof and easy to run but expensive to overhaul so try and find an airplane with a mid time engine. Fuel burn will be around 22 gph in cruise and give 180-190mph cruise speed. If flown regularly oil consumption would be around 1qt an hour. It is a comfy airplane for four but three across is tight in the back seat. The biggest drawback is it will draw a crowd every time you land so quick fuel turnarounds are tough. Also you will get offered a free hangar more often than not when you overnight on a CC. Don
 
FLTRI said:
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome, and thoughtful advise. Couple of clarifications, I should have been more thorough in my intro, and initial question.

I don't have intent in buying a Staggerwing, and then learning how to fly it. If I do go on this journey, the first step would to learn, and get licensed on something else. After that, I'd likely rent for a year or so to hone my skills, and get a lot more comfortable at the controls. The medical shouldn't be an issue, I'm in excellent health and have to pass an annual physical that includes a stress EKG for work. Great advise on learning in a tail dragger rather than tricycle gear, makes perfect sense. I also wouldn't want to beat up something so rare and beautiful, while learning the ropes.
Click to expand...
Smart. And there are lots of student-friendly taildraggers out there. Since there aren't a whole lot of schools that train in them (but there are a few) it might make a lot more sense to buy something like a Champ or a Citabria or one of the other planes suggested in the thread and find an experienced instructor. Ignore the suggestions to train in anything with a nosewheel. There's just no point. If you are in love with taildraggers, learn in and fly taildraggers.

I guess what I was really asking was, "Does a Staggering make sense to own, as a general aviation aircraft?" I was concerned about things like excessive fuel consumption, maintenance on the radial, the cloth skin, the wood frame, or something that makes this plane more of a museum piece, and not an aircraft that is even close to being practical to actually fly. Maybe it is just too hard to fly in general, and only meant for someone that has 10,000 hours under their belt. Maybe 80 year old parts are nonexistent, or grossly overpriced if you can find them. Maybe this aircraft is best left parked, and admired as art, rather than being flown around by a knucklehead like me...

It seems, from what most are saying, that these concerns are not too big of obstacles to overcome.
Click to expand...
In this case, all of the issues can be solved with money. And an obstacle that can be overcome with money is not a problem, it's an expense. Only you know if you can handle those expenses.
I can see myself and my wife (and occasionally a couple friends) getting on the plane, and taking off for a week or so, and landing in a different town to explore. I do live in Las Vegas, and we are basically an island in the middle of the desert. I ride (motorcycles, ergo my screen name) and it's basically 300 miles to anywhere. I've seen all of the 300 mile places a hundred times, we need to get further away for more adventures. A plane would solve that issue, and I wouldn't have to get groped by TSA every time I leave town. And yes, I may even dress up as Howard Hughes on occasion. ;)
Click to expand...
Sounds like fun. My only other suggestion would be to get started now!
 
FLTRI said:
Thanks to everyone for the warm welcome, and thoughtful advise.

Here's the yellow one I fell in love with, same one that BillTIZ was talking about, I'm sure. I took dozens of pictures of it. I didn't know it was available for rides, but I'm going to hunt down the owner and talk his ears off. Can't wait for a flight, and his opinions on it.
Click to expand...

1. "The force is strong in this one."
2. The aviation bug has infected you something fierce. There is no antedote. "Welcome to the dark side" and "prepare to be assimilated":lol:
 
danhagan said:
1. "The force is strong in this one."
2. The aviation bug has infected you something fierce. There is no antedote. "Welcome to the dark side" and "prepare to be assimilated":lol:
Click to expand...

That literally made me laugh out loud...

I've always been fascinated with flying, and along with Old Fart, I fly R/C. I had a friend with a Cessna 182 and have flown with him a few times. He's let me take the controls while three mistakes high, and I had a blast.

As I've gotten closer to retirement, friends and family continually ask me, "What are you going to do when you retire?" Besides my standard, "Whatever I want to." answer, I really didn't know. Ride, fly my R/C stuff, travel and??? I've just never had the time. In 8 months, I'll have unlimited time...

I found the link to the yellow Staggerwing at the NLV airport. It's also a flight school. Sounds like the perfect place for me to get this ball rolling. I like the idea of getting a Piper or some other relatively inexpensive tail dragger. Way cheaper to get into and maintain, and I wouldn't cry too hard if I ding it up during my training. If I keep it for a year, I can make the decision after that if I want to invest in the D-17, or if I'm just pipe dreaming.

Question: If, after I get the PPL, do you suppose the cost would be less to rent (assuming a Piper Pacer) for a year, or buy and then resell? Assuming I was to fly the Piper 2-3 times a month...
 
FLTRI said:
T
Question: If, after I get the PPL, do you suppose the cost would be less to rent (assuming a Piper Pacer) for a year, or buy and then resell? Assuming I was to fly the Piper 2-3 times a month...
Click to expand...
Depends on how many hours you fly to amortize the fixed costs. It costs me way more to own my airplane than it would to rent, but, well, so what. I like my airplane.

You won't find many taildraggers available to rent, so you may just have to suck it up and buy one. You can explain to the wife that you just didn't have any other choice... :wink2:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top