Bought my wife a Caterpillar D4

[Ted]

Ted, if you're getting 3Ω between the condenser's connection and ground, it is bad.

That's what I'm thinking...

put your tongue on the leads....turn the gear....and tell us what happens.


seriously....I'd take some scotchbrite and clean up any brush contact areas...clean the points with some emery cloth. I bet it just needs some love....

So Rick, you disagree with Spike's assertion above?

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

So Rick, you disagree with Spike's assertion above?

I don't know bout it....to say.


I do know a condenser is a capacitor.....and it should not have any continuity without an internal short. So, check it like any other cap. If your multimeter can do microfarads...you could measure the capacitance.

 

[SCCutler]

Minor mod to my prior answer.

Assuming the impedance is 3Ω, steady, it's bad. You might see a limited period of continuity (low impedance) while the cap charges, but its should not continue.

Still think it's bad, though.

 

[Ted]

I took apart the magneto and got the condenser out. I'm pretty sure it's bad.

First note is that my 3 ohm measurement before was irrelevant. I was measuring across different connectors that were all connected to the shaft at the top. They were just in different locations on the shaft. This is a really old style condenser, but from what I can tell, it's bad. My multimeter shows 0.000F (I even went down to nF, nothing) no matter where I put the probes. I'm used to modern capacitors that have two pins on them, but I'm assuming on this the locations are the housing and the shaft. Resistance is something like 8 megaohms.

Near as I can tell, everything else seems to be working in the mag. The coil has 10 kohm resistance, which seems about right (at least comparing to my 9N coil). Points look good and were adjusted right, and from the testing I did previously it seemed as though things were working.

I'm thinking I'll order a condenser and put it all back together, then see what happens, unless anyone has another idea.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I took apart the magneto and got the condenser out. I'm pretty sure it's bad.

First note is that my 3 ohm measurement before was irrelevant. I was measuring across different connectors that were all connected to the shaft at the top. They were just in different locations on the shaft. This is a really old style condenser, but from what I can tell, it's bad. My multimeter shows 0.000F (I even went down to nF, nothing) no matter where I put the probes. I'm used to modern capacitors that have two pins on them, but I'm assuming on this the locations are the housing and the shaft. Resistance is something like 8 megaohms.

Near as I can tell, everything else seems to be working in the mag. The coil has 10 kohm resistance, which seems about right (at least comparing to my 9N coil). Points look good and were adjusted right, and from the testing I did previously it seemed as though things were working.

I'm thinking I'll order a condenser and put it all back together, then see what happens, unless anyone has another idea.

Order 2. The aftermarket Chinese condensers are garbage. My last one went all of 2 weeks before it stranded my son after a tune up. Although the case was pretty, when I opened it up the guts looked like a elementary school craft project. Parts store said their return rate was way up.

 

[Ted]

Order 2. The aftermarket Chinese condensers are garbage. My last one went all of 2 weeks before it stranded my son after a tune up. Although the case was pretty, when I opened it up the guts looked like a elementary school craft project. Parts store said their return rate was way up.

Good idea. I'm thinking I'm going to call up the place that sells parts and does overhauls and understand what they do in the overhaul first before making the decision, but I'm pretty sure I'll just order this condenser and put it back together, then see what it does. Really everything else looks fine internally and seems to be working from what I can tell.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

you don't need to spend a lot....just put in the standard points and condenser and it'll be fine.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I found some fancy Japanese diodes for the machine....lets see if it does the trick....

 

[Ted]

I was going to buy just the condenser, but the place I was going to buy from had a pitiful website and said I had to mail payment in first. No thanks, this isn't 1999.

Then a friend of mine ended up finding an RC-2H magneto on eBay, 2012 rebuilt NOS that a shop was selling. They're closing up, and I ended up getting it for $90 shipped. It's got the wrong rotation so I guess it must be for a different engine, and it also looks to have an impulse coupling. However the internal components should be at least mostly the same, specifically the capacitor. It seemed worth it for the risk, I can resell it if it has nothing I need. My first thought is seeing if I can swap parts over to convert it to what I need, second thought is remove what I need. This weekend the weather is supposed to be ugly so it'll probably be next week before I do anything on it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I was going to buy just the condenser, but the place I was going to buy from had a pitiful website and said I had to mail payment in first. No thanks, this isn't 1999.

Then a friend of mine ended up finding an RC-2H magneto on eBay, 2012 rebuilt NOS that a shop was selling. They're closing up, and I ended up getting it for $90 shipped. It's got the wrong rotation so I guess it must be for a different engine, and it also looks to have an impulse coupling. However the internal components should be at least mostly the same, specifically the capacitor. It seemed worth it for the risk, I can resell it if it has nothing I need. My first thought is seeing if I can swap parts over to convert it to what I need, second thought is remove what I need. This weekend the weather is supposed to be ugly so it'll probably be next week before I do anything on it.

So, between the D4, 9N, Cobra, plane, Ranger, diesel truck, day job, POA, and who knows what else, when do you have time to get anything finished???

 

[Ted]

So, between the D4, 9N, Cobra, Ranger, day job, POA, and who knows what else, when do you have time to get anything finished???

@Mtns2Skies is the one with the Ranger, I bought the new Ram in 2017. You forgot about the E55 and GL550, 3 kids, wife, day job, and running a non-profit that has me flying on weekends.

I guess I should be planning this weekend's trip...

 

[Mtns2Skies]

So, between the D4, 9N, Cobra, plane, Ranger, diesel truck, day job, POA, and who knows what else, when do you have time to get anything finished???

Yeah let's not get anyone mixed up here. I have a Ranger, a #BanDozer and an MU2.

Ted has all the other silly things.

 

[Ted]

Yeah let's not get anyone mixed up here. I have a Ranger, a #BanDozer and an MU2.

Ted has all the other silly things.

Don't make me #bandozer you...

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

@Mtns2Skies is the one with the Ranger, I bought the new Ram in 2017. You forgot about the E55 and GL550, 3 kids, wife, day job, and running a non-profit that has me flying on weekends.

I guess I should be planning this weekend's trip...

Oh, that’s right. Me bad. You were only posting on the “thinking about a Ranger” thread.

It’s getting hard to keep all of your toys straight!

 

[Ted]

Oh, that’s right. Me bad. You were only posting on the “thinking about a Ranger” thread.

It’s getting hard to keep all of your toys straight!

While I'll never say never, a Ranger is not likely to be on a list of a vehicle for me to buy. If I get an engine that small... it belongs in a motorcycle.

 

[-KLB-]

When my wife and I met, I had a 94 ranger, and she had a 95. Both 3.0, extended cab, manual trans. At times, I wish we kept one of them. But our current F150 handles our current truck mission nicely, and the current ranger isn’t the little quirky handling trip down memory lane.

 

[Ted]

When my wife and I met, I had a 94 ranger, and she had a 95. Both 3.0, extended cab, manual trans. At times, I wish we kept one of them. But our current F150 handles our current truck mission nicely, and the current ranger isn’t the little quirky handling trip down memory lane.

I've been thinking about some of the vehicles that I used to have (notably the first of any particular type of vehicle I've owned) and how I miss them largely for the nostalgia. There were good parts of all of them, of course.

But ultimately I got rid of them for good reasons, so after some critical thinking the only one I really do miss is my '82 XJ-S V12. And even then, that particular car was rusting away and getting rid of it was a good decision. The one that I wish I'd kept was my '92 XJS V12. That was a fantastic car.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I've been thinking about some of the vehicles that I used to have (notably the first of any particular type of vehicle I've owned) and how I miss them largely for the nostalgia. There were good parts of all of them, of course.

But ultimately I got rid of them for good reasons, so after some critical thinking the only one I really do miss is my '82 XJ-S V12. And even then, that particular car was rusting away and getting rid of it was a good decision. The one that I wish I'd kept was my '92 XJS V12. That was a fantastic car.

The good thing about Jag V12s is that you usually had at least a V8 at any given time.

 

[Ted]

The good thing about Jag V12s is that you usually had at least a V8 at any given time.

The things were remarkably reliable for me. However the Marelli ignition (which started in... I want to say 1989... @Rgbeard can correct me) used one coil per bank and they had a nasty habit of one coil failing, but not the other. When that occurred one bank of cylinders would stop firing, but would still dump fuel into the combustion chambers and out the exhaust. If not caught in time, the catalytic converter would then catch fire.

My '92 did this to me once, but I caught it when the cat just turned cherry red and before anything caught fire.

The earlier V12s with Lucas CEI (basically GM HEI) had the problem of distributor caps exploding when the flammable mixture of crankcases gasses built up within the cap. They had a vent that was supposed to keep the caps clean (basically sucking that air in through the intake manifold like a PCV) but I found they normally exploded when you started the car.

What I wanted to do but never did was convert one to MegaSquirt and dual Ford EDIS-6 distributorless ignition. I think that would've been a good improvement for the things. I had a lot of other plans, but never got around to them.

 

[SoonerAviator]

The things were remarkably reliable for me. However the Marelli ignition (which started in... I want to say 1989... @Rgbeard can correct me) used one coil per bank and they had a nasty habit of one coil failing, but not the other. When that occurred one bank of cylinders would stop firing, but would still dump fuel into the combustion chambers and out the exhaust. If not caught in time, the catalytic converter would then catch fire.

My '92 did this to me once, but I caught it when the cat just turned cherry red and before anything caught fire.

The earlier V12s with Lucas CEI (basically GM HEI) had the problem of distributor caps exploding when the flammable mixture of crankcases gasses built up within the cap. They had a vent that was supposed to keep the caps clean (basically sucking that air in through the intake manifold like a PCV) but I found they normally exploded when you started the car.

What I wanted to do but never did was convert one to MegaSquirt and dual Ford EDIS-6 distributorless ignition. I think that would've been a good improvement for the things. I had a lot of other plans, but never got around to them.

My M-I-L has a mid-80’s XJS rotting in a barn. Hasn’t run for over a decade at least. Paint/interior are in great shape (racing green/camel) but I’d imagine varmints have taken out most of the wiring. Probably couldn’t get $1K out of it if she wanted to, although I’m sure she still believes it just needs a tune-up and some new tires to bring top dollar.

 

[ChemGuy]

I thought you just liked projects...kinda like me. But when you said you owned and *liked* not 1 but 2 jags...80's and 90's...well then I realized we arent the same. You prefer Sisyphean projects and must be some kind of masochist. The only worse thing you could have said was you wanted and 70's or 80's Alpha.

 

[-KLB-]

I thought you just liked projects...kinda like me. But when you said you owned and *liked* not 1 but 2 jags...80's and 90's...well then I realized we arent the same. You prefer Sisyphean projects and must be some kind of masochist. The only worse thing you could have said was you wanted and 70's or 80's Alpha.

What, not a Lotus? I thought Lucas, price of darkness, had an especially strong affinity for Lotus.

 

[Ted]

My M-I-L has a mid-80’s XJS rotting in a barn. Hasn’t run for over a decade at least. Paint/interior are in great shape (racing green/camel) but I’d imagine varmints have taken out most of the wiring. Probably couldn’t get $1K out of it if she wanted to, although I’m sure she still believes it just needs a tune-up and some new tires to bring top dollar.

Now you have me curious on the condition and if she'd sell it. I have been wanting another one...

I thought you just liked projects...kinda like me. But when you said you owned and *liked* not 1 but 2 jags...80's and 90's...well then I realized we arent the same. You prefer Sisyphean projects and must be some kind of masochist. The only worse thing you could have said was you wanted and 70's or 80's Alpha.

I actually owned a total of 7 Jaguars, 6 XJ-Ss ranging from 1982 through 1992, and a 1987 XJ6. Now out of those 7 cars I only had 3 of them driving at any point, and except for the 1992 I bought/acquired them all in non-running condition. I was a professional Jaguar mechanic during the summers from 2002-2004 and in Indiana I also worked as a Jaguar mechanic for a while at a shop and then independently for a bit. I've probably had my hands and wrenches on somewhere between around 50-100 of the things, almost all built between 1982 and 1995.

Maybe it's because they're what I first started wrenching on as a teenager, but I didn't find those cars that bad. The XJ40s (1988-1994 XJ6/12/Vanden Plas) were the worst in my opinion. We once had one where when you hit the window switch the radio turned on. That was interesting. My first '82 I basically rebuilt and the thing was very reliable. I put 30,000 miles on it in a year and they were essentially all trouble-free.

But you are correct that I am not normal.

What, not a Lotus? I thought Lucas, price of darkness, had an especially strong affinity for Lotus.

Lotus is on my list for something I would like to own one day, too...

 

[Rgbeard]

The things were remarkably reliable for me. However the Marelli ignition (which started in... I want to say 1989... @Rgbeard can correct me) used one coil per bank and they had a nasty habit of one coil failing, but not the other. When that occurred one bank of cylinders would stop firing, but would still dump fuel into the combustion chambers and out the exhaust. If not caught in time, the catalytic converter would then catch fire.

My '92 did this to me once, but I caught it when the cat just turned cherry red and before anything caught fire.

The earlier V12s with Lucas CEI (basically GM HEI) had the problem of distributor caps exploding when the flammable mixture of crankcases gasses built up within the cap. They had a vent that was supposed to keep the caps clean (basically sucking that air in through the intake manifold like a PCV) but I found they normally exploded when you started the car.

What I wanted to do but never did was convert one to MegaSquirt and dual Ford EDIS-6 distributorless ignition. I think that would've been a good improvement for the things. I had a lot of other plans, but never got around to them.

Ted is correct about the Mareilli, and yes, it was 1989 that it changed over.

My Jaguar experiences have been good ones. I still own two, and can't count how many I've bought/sold over the years.

I've used some of them like people use pickup trucks, and have driven them long distances, across deserts, and through desolate parts of the USA and Mexico moreso than most on here.

The V12, when properly sorted, by someone that knows the engine, is a marvel. When maintained by a general mechanic, it can be problematic.

The inline 6 cars are equally amazing, and more straightforward.

 

[SCCutler]

Ted’s going to Oklahoma...

 

[Ted]

Ted’s going to Oklahoma...

The last thing I need is another project. That said, there's nothing like a V12 and I've been considering another XJ-S.

What I've really been having a hankering for in the department of "things I have no earthly need for" is an old 2-stroke Detroit Diesel - preferably a 12V71/92 although an 8V71/92 would also be interesting. I find the engines quite fascinating in their simplicity as well as the fact that they were effectively in production unchanged about as long as we've seen piston aircraft engines in production unchanged.

Plus, turning the governor up from 2000 RPM to 2800 and running straight pipes coupled to a 6x4 2-stick transmission sounds like fun.

 

[-KLB-]

The last thing I need is another project. That said, there's nothing like a V12 and I've been considering another XJ-S.

What I've really been having a hankering for in the department of "things I have no earthly need for" is an old 2-stroke Detroit Diesel - preferably a 12V71/92 although an 8V71/92 would also be interesting. I find the engines quite fascinating in their simplicity as well as the fact that they were effectively in production unchanged about as long as we've seen piston aircraft engines in production unchanged.

Plus, turning the governor up from 2000 RPM to 2800 and running straight pipes coupled to a 6x4 2-stick transmission sounds like fun.

If you are a real glutton for punishment, and have a lake nearby, find a steel hull trawler with a Detroit diesel.

 

[Bill]

If I were to ever have Jaguar, it would have to be a Mk2 saloon. To me those cars just scream British elegance.

 

[Ted]

If you are a real glutton for punishment, and have a lake nearby, find a steel hull trawler with a Detroit diesel.

While browsing eBay for things that I will never buy a few years back, I saw a 52' Sea Ray express cruiser from the late 80s. Beautiful boat, twin 12V71s. Looked like it got something <1 NMPG.

No thanks.

If I were to ever have Jaguar, it would have to be a Mk2 saloon. To me those cars just scream British elegance.

The Mk2 and S-type (old S-type, not the Lincoln LS with a body kit circa 2000) are really neat cars that do a great job on the lines and elegance like you said. A friend of mine had one for years that I got to drive once, really nice driving car.

Yeah, the electrical systems on any older Jaguar (and newer ones, too) aren't exactly their forte, but I actually had no electrical problems on any of my Jaguars, aside from ignition system issues. I don't really count those as electrical system problems, though.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Now you're learning why electric start conversiond are sooo popular among "classic" Caterpillar owners.

Jaguars exploding on start. Explains why Cadillacs were popular among a certain Italian-American groups. Though they could explode too, under certain circumstances...

 

[Ted]

Now you're learning why electric start conversiond are sooo popular among "classic" Caterpillar owners.

I do understand why the electric start conversions are popular. My issue is that at ~$2k for the conversion, it's a hard financial case to make. The other thing for me is I like the cool/classic/old factor that goes with owning an old dozer. Remember this is partially a cool old piece not just a working piece.

Jaguars exploding on start. Explains why Cadillacs were popular among a certain Italian-American groups. Though they could explode too, under certain circumstances...

That distributor cap issue was limited to the Lucas CEI V12s. The Marelli V12s didn't have it, nor did any of the I6s to my knowledge. Of course I think the Marelli issues with cutting out a bank entirely were worse, but that's my preference.

My Cadillac was less reliable than my Jaguars, although I didn't do a proper rebuild on the Caddy.

Anything can explode under the right circumstances...

 

[Chip Sylverne]

$2K American money? Wow, when I did mine in 2007 or so it was only about 700 bucks. Of course, I the holes were already drilled and all I had to do was remove the cover plate on the boss.

 

[Ted]

$2K American money? Wow, when I did mine in 2007 or so it was only about 700 bucks. Of course, I the holes were already drilled and all I had to do was remove the cover plate on the boss.

Yes, $2k American money. That's what I've found from my Googling efforts. Not sure how much of that is general inflation or what, but that's what I've seen listed both online and from several forum posts of people who've done it/looking to do it.

At $700 I'd probably be inclined to do it. At $2k, that's a really hard pill to swallow given that the pony motor seems like it has the capability to run.

 

[ChemGuy]

What, not a Lotus? I thought Lucas, price of darkness, had an especially strong affinity for Lotus.

He does. But I would take a rusty, shade tree mechanic owned Jag from 1985 over a 'nice Alpha' any day of the week. I think Alpha is Eye-Talian for aint never gonna run right.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm putting in extra noise suppression on my machine....nano response flyback diodes. I have a theory that the computer is resetting when the solenoid valve opens.

 

[Ted]

The "new" (rebuilt) magneto arrived today. I managed to shock myself with it, so I know it works! Now I have to figure out how to make a good magneto for my engine out of those two magnetos.

The first thing I need to figure out is whether to try to scavenge what parts I need off of said new one to fix the old one, or should I try to convert the new one to match the old one. The new one is recently overhauled, but is impulse coupled and is wrong rotation. So it would be extra work to convert it, but I suspect some of the other internal parts are in better shape since it was an overhaul. Once I get it apart and the two mags side by side I think it will probably be an easy decision. My inclination is to try to convert the new one if it looks like it had a better rebuild internally and functions, but we'll see what I find once taken apart.

Hopefully this weekend I can get the pony motor to start making some noise!

 

[UngaWunga]

Fun discovery of the night: my cordless drill makes for a great starter for the pony motor with an oil filter adapter attached!

But it didn’t start.

I tried a bit of testing. I couldn’t visibly get a spark from either wire to the spark plug, and it smells like fuel is coming out of the exhaust. Now that doesn’t mean it’s the right amount of fuel, but it seems like there’s an ignition issue. The thing has a magneto and I have the P-lead disconnected at the switch so the mag should be firing.

When turning the engine over I did get resistance of 0 ohms at about the right spot indicating the points were closing, and if I spun it over there was some voltage. This makes me think one of a few potential items:

- wires are old enough that even though they read 0 ohms, they just can’t carry the voltage/current anymore and it needs new wires (wires are very old)
- maybe the condenser is out and it can’t produce enough voltage? I am no expert on the inner workings of magnetos but I imagine some folks on here know a thing or two
- the P-lead is grounded somewhere else that I’m not seeing since I didn’t disconnect it at the mag
- this mag for some reason requires that it be grounded in order to run unlike aircraft mags

I feel like I’m close...

The condenser is there just to prevent the points from arcing and pitting the points when they open. You can run without a condenser.
Check for resistance in the wiring from the ignition to see if any are broken somewhere.
And the obvious, clean all your grounds.


Edit: see you bought a new one.

 

[Ted]

It runs!

I converted the new magneto to the correct timing and rotation for my pony motor. That part wasn’t hard to do.

Timing the engine was harder. The manual said 25 degrees BTDC was the correct timing, but apparently over the years the mag timing mechanism changed and mine didn’t meet any of the options.

But I was able to find a mark that seemed to be TDC. Then I counted the teeth, figured out about 25 degrees BTDC, hooked it all up, and cranked with my drill as a starter.

It coughed and I knew it would start. Then it fired off!

Surprisingly, the pony motor clutch and pinion all worked properly. The main problem I’m noticing is the idle cut off on the diesel motor still leaks some fuel in so sometimes it’ll cough and disengage the Diesel engine. I can still make it start.

The pony motor fuel tank is leaking some too. So it has little things for me to look into, but overall it works. The clutch doesn’t seem to fully disengage when warm and needs some adjustment, but I knew that already.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Sweet!

 

[ElPaso Pilot]