Bought a plane on eBay, what to do now?

poadeleted21

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Aug 18, 2011
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I'm working out all the details of pre-buy etc... now. He want's a 2K deposit and I don't have any issues forking that over, just wondering how I should protect myself should I/an A&P show up for a pre-buy and it's a corroded mess with the wings detached or something. Assuming nothing major wrong I intend to purchase the plane, I just want to protect myself, because... I haven't even seen the plane, about to give him a call and iron out all the details but need to know what I should ask for/demand before I hand over the deposit?

Can I balk because there's a stain on the carpet and expect my deposit back? My current plane I purchased with cash in hand in person without a deposit, with this one, I'm going to have to send an A&P for the pre-buy THEN go down there. If I go through the eBay system a la paypal, will that offer some level of protection? Losing 2K wouldn't be the end of the world but it wouldn't be fun.
 
Spell out a purchase and sale agreement before you spend dime one. There's a good template on the aopa site. Then use an escrow agent, could be AOPA, a bank or an attorney, and fork the deposit over to them. The seller deposits title with them. If the bird doesn't pass muster, the deposit and title are returned. May cost a few extra bucks, but it's worth it. If the seller balks, find another deal.

My .02, borne of bitter experience.
 
Get the FAA history CD. A relative of mine bought an airplane on ebay. He found out 2 annuals later that the plane had been crashed and someone had put a set of wings on it from another plane that had also been crashed. The second set of wings were a different model or revision and were not an acceptable replacement. A year and a half later he still has the plane sitting in the hanger unflyable and a bunch of lawyer bills.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Spell out a purchase and sale agreement before you spend dime one. There's a good template on the aopa site. Then use an escrow agent, could be AOPA, a bank or an attorney, and fork the deposit over to them. The seller deposits title with them. If the bird doesn't pass muster, the deposit and title are returned. May cost a few extra bucks, but it's worth it. If the seller balks, find another deal.

My .02, borne of bitter experience.
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+1000. Really, unless you are in a position to treat the purchase price as "gambling money" where you don't care if you lose it, treat the purchase of an airplane like you would the purchase of real estate. Make a formal offer, execute a purchase agreement, get an inspection from someone who works for YOU, and negotiate as a result of the inspection.
 
cd, prebuy got all that just don't want to blindly send 2 large to a person I never met. I'll get the aopa info. Thanks
 
I sort of purchased a plane from eBay. I sent a note to the seller that I was interested if the high bid fell through. It did. I drove about 400 miles, looked it over, and handed him a deposit. I arranged for a prebuy, and picked it up two weeks later.

If I had it to do over again, I would have gone the first time with my mechanic, done the prebuy, paid for it, and flown home.

What did you buy, how far away is it, and how soon can you show up with a deposit check in hand. I'd be hesitant to send a deposit on something I've never seen, but if you're using eBay/paypal, you can always recant claiming it's not as described. (It was not described a a plane with a stained carpet). Buyers are king on eBay.
 
The pictures are good, the numbers are good and the words are good, the only real issue is that people and pictures lie.
 
FYI, the AOPA agreement is better than nothing but a bit of a hodge-podge and not all that great for many of the items that should be covered. Be sure you sort it out so that it matches up with the deal you're trying to make and don't hesitate to insert/delete terms that you want.

bartmc said:
cd, prebuy got all that just don't want to blindly send 2 large to a person I never met. I'll get the aopa info. Thanks
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If you use PayPal to send that deposit over with a Credit Card, then that gives you protection. It's worked for me in the past.

FWIW, I look at an eBay auction as just that. Unless I've misrepresented the plane, you win it, I expect you to fork over the cash and take it. If someone wants to do a prebuy inspection on it and then decides to back out, I'm planning on keeping the deposit unless the findings were something that I misrepresented.

Now, if you contact me through eBay and are interested in buying it, then I'd handle it the same as anyone who contacts me through Trade-A-Plane or anything else. But for eBay, I believe the auction winner actually wins the item, doesn't win the option to decide whether or not he wants it. For that, he can just come check it out like any other guy.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If you use PayPal to send that deposit over with a Credit Card, then that gives you protection. It's worked for me in the past.

FWIW, I look at an eBay auction as just that. Unless I've misrepresented the plane, you win it, I expect you to fork over the cash and take it. If someone wants to do a prebuy inspection on it and then decides to back out, I'm planning on keeping the deposit unless the findings were something that I misrepresented.

Now, if you contact me through eBay and are interested in buying it, then I'd handle it the same as anyone who contacts me through Trade-A-Plane or anything else. But for eBay, I believe the auction winner actually wins the item, doesn't win the option to decide whether or not he wants it. For that, he can just come check it out like any other guy.
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Some good points Ted, but I suspect you have a greater integrity than a lot of folks on eBay.

If I were buying something high dollar on the bay, I'd want to cover my butt as much as possible. There is ALOT of deception on eBay
 
It's way too easy to accurately represent something on eBay that's accurate but leaves way too much out by omission. Whether intended or not.

Example is the folks that buy a box that was from a nice piece of electronics, like a MacBook, who didn't read carefully that all that was for sale was... a box.

It'd take a lot for me to consider purchasing an aircraft from an eBay auction. Just sayin'.
 
denverpilot said:
It's way too easy to accurately represent something on eBay that's accurate but leaves way too much out by omission. Whether intended or not.

Example is the folks that buy a box that was from a nice piece of electronics, like a MacBook, who didn't read carefully that all that was for sale was... a box.

It'd take a lot for me to consider purchasing an aircraft from an eBay auction. Just sayin'.
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There are also WAY too many scams. The subject airplane you may think you are bidding on might not even exist, or might be someone else's that isn't for sale.

I have seen ALOT of that crap in the vintage guitar world.
 
My airplane was originally on EBAY. I had asked questions and had actually submitted a bid. Did not win the auction, but the high bidder backed out, or was some kind of scammer. I was then emailed by the owner directly to see if I was still interested. I then had the option of getting a prebuy and submitting an offer without the constraints of an auction.

I don't think I would ever bid on an airplane in an auction again, because of all of the scams and deceit.
 
What's more, dispute resolution using paypal is a time consuming process that does not always end well. BTDT. I would hate to have to depend on it with thousands of $ at stake.
Sellers have been known to back out of deals too. Even if they return your deposit, you've lost the inspection $. If the title is with a third party and the conditions of the escrow are met, that's not gonna happen.
Your instinct to protect yourself is correct. Go with it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If you use PayPal to send that deposit over with a Credit Card, then that gives you protection. It's worked for me in the past.

FWIW, I look at an eBay auction as just that. Unless I've misrepresented the plane, you win it, I expect you to fork over the cash and take it. If someone wants to do a prebuy inspection on it and then decides to back out, I'm planning on keeping the deposit unless the findings were something that I misrepresented.

Now, if you contact me through eBay and are interested in buying it, then I'd handle it the same as anyone who contacts me through Trade-A-Plane or anything else. But for eBay, I believe the auction winner actually wins the item, doesn't win the option to decide whether or not he wants it. For that, he can just come check it out like any other guy.
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eBay's probably not the venue you'd want to sell planes on, the bids are non-binding on eBay motors. It's not like buying socks on the main site. And I have every intention of taking the deal to completion, but it isn't a blank check for him to collect from me. I would have never made the offer if that were the case. The way I see it is I said "I'll put up the deposit and if all is well with a pre buy i'll fork over the rest for $XX,XXX" he said OK. He's wanting the deposit via paypal, Some of you seem to think this is a safe bet, I'm not so sure. The money will be coming from a savings account handled by Discover, So it won't be on a Credit card, but I suppose I could put it on the Discover Card if that buys me any protection. I'm more inclined to go with the AOPA escrow service with a pre-purchase agreement. There are some things that don't seem exactly right and I don't have a real good feeling about it but I've seen the plane for sale for 5 months now for 20K more than I offered, he lowered the price 10K and I offered him 10 less than that. Plane is in TX, phone calls are going to Rhode Island and he says he lives in CA.

From here http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/non-binding-bid.html

A non-binding bid is a bid that shows a buyer's interest in purchasing an item, but it doesn't create a formal contract between the buyer and the seller.

All bids made in the Real Estate and eBay Motors vehicles categories are considered non-binding.
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Ted DuPuis said:
If you use PayPal to send that deposit over with a Credit Card, then that gives you protection. It's worked for me in the past.

FWIW, I look at an eBay auction as just that. Unless I've misrepresented the plane, you win it, I expect you to fork over the cash and take it. If someone wants to do a prebuy inspection on it and then decides to back out, I'm planning on keeping the deposit unless the findings were something that I misrepresented.

Now, if you contact me through eBay and are interested in buying it, then I'd handle it the same as anyone who contacts me through Trade-A-Plane or anything else. But for eBay, I believe the auction winner actually wins the item, doesn't win the option to decide whether or not he wants it. For that, he can just come check it out like any other guy.
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Exactly. I have 6k eBay transactions, bought my last six or so cars there, etc. You did not win an option, you won an airplane. Unless it was materially misrepresented, you really don't necessarily get to bargain off the prebuy. That said, everything is negotiable, he only has $2k of your money, and there is nothing stopping the two of you from making adjustments as mutually agreeable. As regards protecting yourself if not as represented and seller will not return deposit, don't count on eBay to help much, pay with a cc.
 
alfadog said:
Exactly. I have 6k eBay transactions, bought my last six or so cars there, etc. You did not win an option, you won an airplane. Unless it was materially misrepresented, you really don't necessarily get to bargain off the prebuy. That said, everything is negotiable, he only has $2k of your money, and there is nothing stopping the two of you from making adjustments as mutually agreeable. As regards protecting yourself if not as represented and seller will not return deposit, don't count on eBay to help much, pay with a cc.
Click to expand...

read up two posts from this one.
 
bartmc said:
eBay's probably not the venue you'd want to sell planes on, the bids are non-binding on eBay motors. It's not like buying socks on the main site. And I have every intention of taking the deal to completion, but it isn't a blank check for him to collect from me. I would have never made the offer if that were the case. The way I see it is I said "I'll put up the deposit and if all is well with a pre buy i'll fork over the rest for $XX,XXX" he said OK. He's wanting the deposit via paypal, Some of you seem to think this is a safe bet, I'm not so sure. The money will be coming from a savings account handled by Discover, So it won't be on a Credit card, but I suppose I could put it on the Discover Card if that buys me any protection. I'm more inclined to go with the AOPA escrow service with a pre-purchase agreement. There are some things that don't seem exactly right and I don't have a real good feeling about it but I've seen the plane for sale for 5 months now for 20K more than I offered, he lowered the price 10K and I offered him 10 less than that. Plane is in TX, phone calls are going to Rhode Island and he says he lives in CA.

From here http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/non-binding-bid.html
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Interesting, that non-binding thing, I have not done anything with cars on eBay in a few years and never saw that before, guess it is fairly new. That said, doesn't change my thoughts in the above post. I wonder if the payment of a deposit creates a contract? IANAL and all that but I would think that, if as represented, he is under no obligation to return the deposit, and, if not as represented, could be a PITA to get it back if there is disagreement.
 
bartmc said:
There are some things that don't seem exactly right and I don't have a real good feeling about it but I've seen the plane for sale for 5 months now for 20K more than I offered, he lowered the price 10K and I offered him 10 less than that. Plane is in TX, phone calls are going to Rhode Island and he says he lives in CA.

From here http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/non-binding-bid.html
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These days that's not unusual really, especially with cell phones. I've had Ft Lauderdale phone number for over a decade and was calling from Indonesia, Australia, Europe, the middle of the ocean and all over the US. People call about my plane, it's in Atlanta and I'm in FtL.... It's something to note in the details, but not really something to be paranoid about. Now if the phone calls were from +234 1.... phone numbers, then I'd be really suspicious.
 
bartmc said:
read up two posts from this one.
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My policy on cars has always been to buy within travel distance and pay after I see the car, no deposit. My only exception was my MR2 Spyder where I checked the seller out and felt comfortable enough to send him the entire amount and fly up two weeks later to pick it up. Worked out fine.
 
Talked to paypal, they offer ZERO protection for the deposit and said that was 100% on my credit card company to request a "charge back" or something. They said I could file a dispute but if the seller even responded, on a deposit issue, they would close the claim and not issue a refund.
 
bartmc said:
Talked to paypal, they offer ZERO protection for the deposit and said that was 100% on my credit card company to request a "charge back" or something. They said I could file a dispute but if the seller even responded, on a deposit issue, they would close the claim and not issue a refund.
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Yep, there is always escrow...
 
bartmc said:
Talked to paypal, they offer ZERO protection for the deposit and said that was 100% on my credit card company to request a "charge back" or something. They said I could file a dispute but if the seller even responded, on a deposit issue, they would close the claim and not issue a refund.
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Yep, that is what I figured. They are not going to take the fall. Ask the seller to hold off on the deposit and pay someone local to take a quick look. Do the escrow thing.
 
denverpilot said:
Where is the aircraft registered, and does it match any identifying information from the seller?
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Registered in TX, and the guy who's emailing me's last name is the same as the one that's registered (Jones), the first name isn't close but who knows. But the guy said he's having is bother sell it for him because he moved to CA.
 
bartmc said:
Registered in TX, and the guy who's emailing me's last name is the same as the one that's registered (Jones), the first name isn't close but who knows. But the guy said he's having is bother sell it for him because he moved to CA.
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I also see it as co-owned and registered in Lincoln, RI.

edit: prolly the prior registrant.
 
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Henning said:
The pictures are good, the numbers are good and the words are good, the only real issue is that people and pictures lie.
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Henning showed me this first hand. He saved me some money for sure. A guy down in Florida was telling me how great this plane was and how it had no damage history. Big time lie! was I owe you one brother. I haven't forgotten!
 
bartmc said:
Registered in TX, and the guy who's emailing me's last name is the same as the one that's registered (Jones), the first name isn't close but who knows. But the guy said he's having is bother sell it for him because he moved to CA.
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The RI guy's initials are MP? Looks like he was earlier partner with Jones.


Never mind, missed the brother thing. Looks it was in partnership in RI, one partner dropped out and now the owner wants to sell. Not necessarily fishy, IMO. Title search and purchase agreement should cover it. Again, I would want a local A&P to spend 2 - 3 hours with it before dropping $2k.
 
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Seems legit, I just talked the the brother who's handling the transaction, seems willing to work with me gonna wrap this up with the owner and book a flight to Galveston, he said he only wanted to know if I was a serious buyer, so we can either work out an escrow or something or I'll just show him my plane ticket.... That outta be serious enough right? If he sells it before I get there, oh well, there's worse places than Galveston to be for a weekend, especially since it friggin snowed here last weekend. Think I had worked myself up into thinking the worst.
 
Tex_Mike said:
Henning showed me this first hand. He saved me some money for sure. A guy down in Florida was telling me how great this plane was and how it had no damage history. Big time lie! was I owe you one brother. I haven't forgotten!
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No worries bro, that plane was a freaking joke, it wouldn't pass the first 2 minutes of preflight with unsecured aileron pins... and that was the FIRST thing I found. After an hour or so with the plane and the books and OMG...lol.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Some good points Ted, but I suspect you have a greater integrity than a lot of folks on eBay.

If I were buying something high dollar on the bay, I'd want to cover my butt as much as possible. There is ALOT of deception on eBay
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I'd agree with that, and that's why I suggested using a credit card through PayPal to cover your tracks.

bartmc said:
eBay's probably not the venue you'd want to sell planes on, the bids are non-binding on eBay motors. It's not like buying socks on the main site.
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I wasn't aware that was their policy, and that doesn't sound right - it seems few others are aware, either, both on the buying and selling side. That said, eBay's policies are pretty much jokes. We all know that anyone can back out of a "binding" bid, and typically do. Most of the vehicle sales I've made on eBay are actually not through the auction, but to people who were made aware of my item because they saw it on eBay.

I still stand behind what I said. If someone finds out about my item on eBay, I'm fine with them coming and doing a prebuy, etc. and deciding if they want the plane. If they win the auction, then I'm fine with them doing whatever they want, I'll even take them for a test flight. That said, I still expect them to complete payment and buy the plane. I won't be unreasonable about it, but that's my expectation, and it's what I do with other purchases.
 
Henning said:
These days that's not unusual really, especially with cell phones. I've had Ft Lauderdale phone number for over a decade and was calling from Indonesia, Australia, Europe, the middle of the ocean and all over the US. People call about my plane, it's in Atlanta and I'm in FtL.... It's something to note in the details, but not really something to be paranoid about. Now if the phone calls were from +234 1.... phone numbers, then I'd be really suspicious.
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Exactly...he could have been talking about me (except I don't have a plane in TX).

Being Navy, I have a RI cell phone, I currently stationed in San Diego, I have an AZ mailing address and I just bought a house in VA where I'll be transferring to shortly.

FWIW, a lot of Navy guys have x-pollinated between RI, San Diego and Texas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd agree with that, and that's why I suggested using a credit card through PayPal to cover your tracks.
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Ted, has PayPal cleaned up its act? About 5 years ago there was a lot of scamming going on through PayPal and PayPal wasn't doing anything to stop it.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
You don't need to pay any stinking deposit. It's a buyers market, tell him you will have a pre-purchase inspection done with a mechanic of your choosing, then you will talk about buying if your mechanic gives it a thumbs up. Then make him a really chicken s**t offer for him hassling you about a deposit.

-John
 
Fearless Tower said:
Ted, has PayPal cleaned up its act? About 5 years ago there was a lot of scamming going on through PayPal and PayPal wasn't doing anything to stop it.
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They have improved things somewhat. The problem now I find is that they side with the buyer too often. Basically the buyer can say "I changed my mind, and the seller won't refund my money." PayPal's response would be to take the money out of my bank account to refund the buyer. So, from a seller's perspective, you pretty much have no protection from a bad buyer.

As a buyer, they are doing better. However, if you are a buyer and pay through PayPal using your credit card, you have double protection.

Last year, my wife made a purchase that she paid for with PayPal using her credit card. There were two transactions - a deposit and paying the remainder. The item was not only not as described, it was an illegal forgery. PayPal was very good about refunding the second transaction. They then decided not to mess with the first transaction. So, she called her credit card company, who refunded the first transaction.

The way things are these days, you are doing well as a buyer. As a seller, you don't have much protection.

John Baker said:
You don't need to pay any stinking deposit. It's a buyers market, tell him you will have a pre-purchase inspection done with a mechanic of your choosing, then you will talk about buying if your mechanic gives it a thumbs up. Then make him a really chicken s**t offer for him hassling you about a deposit.
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Yeah, that's a productive attitude. :rolleyes:

Someone who acts like that to me I'm not going to give the option to inspect my plane. Even if you decide that eBay is only giving you the option to buy the plane, then as the seller am I to hold the plane for you until you decide you want it or not? That's unreasonable without a deposit, since I am trying to sell the plane, and don't want to ignore other potential buyers.
 
There is no frakking way I'd pay dollar one on an aircraft I "won" on Ebay without eyes on. Sorry, you just can't "represent" anything as big and complex as an aircraft with just a few small photos. I wouldn't give anyone a deposit on Trade-a-Plane, Controller, or any other site either. If it gets sold before I can get to it, too bad. Deposit is so, when I see it and I like it, the seller will hold it for me until I get the rest of the money. Foolish to put down a deposit on something sight-unseen, especially with a medium as scam-ridden as Ebay.
 
steingar said:
There is no frakking way I'd pay dollar one on an aircraft I "won" on Ebay without eyes on. Sorry, you just can't "represent" anything as big and complex as an aircraft with just a few small photos. I wouldn't give anyone a deposit on Trade-a-Plane, Controller, or any other site either. If it gets sold before I can get to it, too bad. Deposit is so, when I see it and I like it, the seller will hold it for me until I get the rest of the money. Foolish to put down a deposit on something sight-unseen, especially with a medium as scam-ridden as Ebay.
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When I sold my plane on eBay, I asked for a non-refundable deposit that was just enough to covere my eBay fees (around $200)
 
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